Campanella or Fisk?

[CTaka]

Despite the fact he'd caught well over 1,000 games at that point, a point of decline for most catchers, he then proceeded to win THREE Most Valuable Player Awards, as many as Mays and Aaron combined, from a bunch of largely racist sportswriters.

BHN

I can't find any reference on how many games Campy caught in the Negro Leagues, but if Campy did actually catch close to 1,000 games before hitting the majors, then I would put comfortably ahead of Fisk. I typically don't give credit for time missed due to injury; in Campy's case, I think I should, but I don't think it would change the outcome much since it seemed that he was already in his decline phase. But I do give credit for time missed due to segregation. If Campy had been allowed into the majors earlier, I think the difference in career values would be much closer - or possibly even in Campy's favor.

Despite having a much shorter career, Campy finished in the top ten in slugging percentage, home runs, adjuted OPS+, and RBIs more often than Fisk. I'd also give Campy the edge on defense.

If you are just basing Campy's 10 year MLB career vs Fisk's 24 year career, I can understand voting for Fisk. But since I am giving Campy credit for Negro League play, I am voting for Campy.

[flash143817]

My gut was to vote Campy, but the arguments for Fisk have been good in his favor. I don't know if I can cast a vote here.

But 2 curious things came to mind reading this thread:

1. What caused Campy's terrible years in between his MVP seasons? He would go from awesome to terrible every other year? Any particular reason for this?


2. Larry Doby really got help from Tris Speaker? I always thought Speaker was a well-known racist. Did these views of his change in his later life or were they overblown during his playing career?

[BaseballHistoryNut]

I can only say to read Timothy Gay's bio. It was very well-received by critics of baseball history books, and it supports me on both scores:

1. Speaker was rabidly racist, xenophobic and anti-Catholic... all to a greater degree than Cobb; but

2. In 1948, when he was 60, his old team asked him to teach Larry Doby how to play CF and he did so, 1-on-1, which was the absolute best tutelage Doby could have asked for, except possibly from Oscar Charleston.

Please read the book. It's one of the greatest baseball bio's I've ever read, and I've read a ton of them. You'll want to cry, however, when you read about Game Six of the 1912 World Series. Probably the gravest sin in baseball history, other than the sin of segregation, and while Speaker was not the biggest sinner on the team that day (Joe Wood was), he was the team's star and thus certainly one of the biggest sinners.

[SABR Matt]

It boggles my mind how severely underrated Carlton Fisk is.

Period.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

Not by me.

Fisk is one of my candidates for the #6 catcher in MLB history, which scarcely constitutes an underrating for a guy who never came within a mile of an MVP, and really didn't do that well at all in MVP voting. But I see no argument for him ahead of the five guys I mentioned--except Piazza, by the guys who think he's been a horror behind the plate, which I disagree with.

That leaves Campy, Bench, Berra and Cochrane. I realize many think Fisk goes ahead of Campy. As I've said, I give Campy Negro League credit from age 20 on, and rate him as the #1 MLB catcher ever, so I see that as a rout. As for the others, I really don't see contests there, either. Mickey Cochrane was a tremendous catcher, with a very high OBP and about as much foot speed as any catcher ever, plus a great baseball mind; and you've heard all about Berra and Bench.

I think those five guys are almost as "all alone" as the legendary Five Great CF's: (in order of birth): Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio, Mays and Mantle. We can argue all day about who's #6, Snider long having been the consensus pick, and Griffey being mine, but there's really no doubt who the top 5 are.

I know the top 5 MLB catchers aren't that clear, but in my mind, they're not far behind--until Josh Gibson is included, at which point he runs away with #1, to the same extent Wagner does at SS and Ruth in RF, and then it's the magic #'s 2-6.

I realize this is just my opinion. I realize that while pretty much EVERYBODY agrees with me about The Great Five in CF (unless they're choking on some Time-Line Adjustment), a helluva lot of people have Fisk higher than me, and cut Piazza and/or my #1 man off/down their lists. But unlike the #2-5 positions at some other spots (1B, SS, P), this is one I'm comfortable with.

BHN

[wamby]

LG, am I wrong? I read Speaker's bio very carefully, and reread numerous parts of it. As a favor to Cleveland, despite his own greater-than-Cobb's racist past, Speaker gave one-on-one lessons in CF play to Larry Doby when he came to MLB. That's the truth, and it's something Doby remembered him fondly for when the Reaper took Spoke in 1958, at age 70.

As far as I know, he'd NEVER played CF before. If he had, he'd played it horribly.

BHN

When DOby first moved to the outfield for the Indians, he played RF, and he played it pretty poorly to the point that on Opening Day in 1948, he nearly got hit on the head by a fly ball. To his credit, however, he didn't give up. Doby started off very slowly in 1948 and was probably about to be sent down when he hit a monster HR in Griffith Staium in May. This HR seemed to be a turning point and his play slowly improved. He did benched for a time after it, but he never did get sent down to the minors. Later in '48, he did begin to play CF, effectively moving Judnich to RF and Tucker to the bench.

Doby also struck out a lot, especially early that season. In 1948, striking out was considered to be about the worst thing a batter could do. The Indians had ahigh strikeout power hitter named Pat Seerey, and they traded him because of his strikeouts.

[SABR Matt]

Campanella #1 MLB catcher ever?? Wow.

Just wow.

You like to talk about how much Foxx was helped by his parks...what about Campy? Negro League parks were tiny and poorly maintained...benefiting hitters immensely...and oh BTW Ebbots Field. ehem. MAJOR hitter's park.

[538280]

It boggles my mind how severely underrated Carlton Fisk is.

Period.

Agreed. Campanella over Fisk is ludicrous IMO.

[Fuzzy Bear]

way off in that assessment

how many mvps does fisk have? campy had three - i think that means he was the best player in the league three times not just the best catcher.

campy didn't reach the major because of something i forget what until he was 26.

fisk had a longer major league career - that's true.

Campy had a LOT of fluctuation between the quality of his MVP years and the quality of his off years. I'd count on Fisk to have the better year, even though Campy's best years were better than Fisk's

Campy was pretty much on the downslide when the accident occurred.

Truthfully, I think that if Campy is in the HOF, Al Rosen should be there, too. Look at the stats, look at their peaks, then tell me if I'm nuts.

[SABR Matt]

BTW, Fisk deserved two MVPs according to PCA...screw the voters. They wouldn't know good baseball if it bit them in the arse. Sorry.

[Dodgerfan66]

you have got to be kididng me???

how do you compare campanella to fisk???

campanella's best seasons are better suited as a 1b season.

is julio franco better than juan gonzalez???

campanella led the dodgers to championships.and he won 3 mvp's!!!!!!!!!!!! during the decade he was a much better player than yogi berra (who btw is overated)

really why even compare, when its not even close.

i feel a anti-dodger campaign on these boards

fisk

[leecemark]

--Why do I get the feeling your all time team would be all Dodgers?

[SABR Matt]

LOL

Yeah...um...might want to look beyond the three great seasons Campanella had and recognize that he pretty much SUCKED otherwise in the majors...well OK that's overstating it a bit, but he was not a very good players when not having one of his three great performances.

[Dodgerfan66]

LOL

Yeah...um...might want to look beyond the three great seasons Campanella had and recognize that he pretty much SUCKED otherwise in the majors...well OK that's overstating it a bit, but he was not a very good players when not having one of his three great performances.

remember he was a catcher, so his numbers arent to be taken at face value.
anyway ops+ of 135,131 and 121 are actually quite good for a C.

[SABR Matt]

Yes...the thing is...Fisk is also a catcher and we're comparing those two. Fisk's great years were every bit as good as Campy's and I strongly believe Fisk was a better fielder.

[Dodgerfan66]

Yes...the thing is...Fisk is also a catcher and we're comparing those two. Fisk's great years were every bit as good as Campy's and I strongly believe Fisk was a better fielder.

but add on to the fact that campy had a better peak.......imo its not close.

[sturg1dj]

before the age of 36 I'd say Campy......but after that Campy started slowing down a little....on account of being paralyzed....haha


too far?

[538280]

Campy probably did have a better peak, but I don't see how it's so clear cut as people are making it out to be. Fisk's best year was 1972, when he had an OPS+ of 162, higher than that of any Campanella season. Fisk had quite a few more seasons when he had OPS+ over 130 in a full season, as well as some part time years over 150. As far as fielding, from what I've heard about them they're probably about equal, I might give the edge to Fisk just because catching required bigger responsiblity in his time because more people were stealing bases. Matt's PCA apparently has Fisk ahead, Win Shares has them the same for best three years. Add that along with Campanella's extreme inconsistency and Fisk's huge edge in longevity and it's a REALLY easy decision for me.

[SABR Matt]

On the issue of who had the better "peak"...each catcher's seasons sorted in descending order of offensive PCA-BA:

Cartlon Fisk

Yr	PA	Wins	PCA-BA
1988	298	5.49	0.345
1974	216	3.84	0.341
1972	514	8.54	0.334
1975	294	4.28	0.321
1983	545	7.37	0.315
1978	658	8.74	0.313
1977	632	8.08	0.310
1985	620	7.91	0.310
1990	521	6.52	0.308
1971	49	0.58	0.304
1989	419	4.90	0.303
1980	530	4.66	0.285
1976	557	4.80	0.284
1982	536	4.43	0.282
1981	394	3.02	0.278
1973	558	3.53	0.270
1984	395	2.48	0.270
1987	508	2.74	0.264
1979	340	1.55	0.259
1992	214	0.77	0.253
1991	501	1.54	0.250
1986	491	-1.14	0.217
1993	58	-0.31	0.199

Roy Campanella

Yr      PA	Wins	PCA-BA
1951	562	9.01	0.330
1953	590	8.30	0.318
1955	522	7.26	0.317
1949	507	5.74	0.301
1950	494	4.93	0.293
1952	533	4.77	0.286
1948	321	2.55	0.280
1956	461	2.04	0.258
1957	380	1.49	0.255
1954	446	1.03	0.245

Now...I'm trying REALLY hard to see how Campanella's peak was better than Fisk's...

...

...

[Dodgerfan66]

what i see is that campy in his best years was worth more wins than fisk according to your metrics.

[538280]

Looking a bit beyond the OPS+, I think I do now see that Fisk very well might have had the better peak. Areas of offense not covered well in OPS+ are baserunning, obviouisly, and grounding into DPs. Campanella grounded into quite a few DPs, definitely much more per PA than Fisk did. Then baserunning, Fisk was not that fast but did have some years when he stole quite a few bases at a good percentage. Doing a more formal offensive analysis, I now see their best years are really, really close when you take everything into account. Then there's that Campanella was less durable (only two years of 140+ games played), and since his role in catching was not as important, and peak is at least a push.

[538280]

what i see is that campy in his best years was worth more wins than fisk according to your metrics.

PCA
Fisk-8.74, 8.54, 8.08
Campanella-9.01, 8.30, 7.26

Fisk would have a bit higher total on three year peak, and once you start to move beyond that Campy gets buried.

[Dodgerfan66]

PCA
Fisk-8.74, 8.54, 8.08
Campanella-9.01, 8.30, 7.26

Fisk would have a bit higher total on three year peak, and once you start to move beyond that Campy gets buried.

also remember to credit campy for his time in the negro leagues

i say their pretty close in peak but add in the mvp's and his negro league career you got the best catcher of all time.

[iPod]

Dodgerfan,

At how many positions do the Dodgers have the best ever? Starting pitcher (Koufax) and catcher (Campanella) at least, according to you. How many more are there?

[538280]

Dodgerfan,

At how many positions do the Dodgers have the best ever? Starting pitcher (Koufax) and catcher (Campanella) at least, according to you. How many more are there?

Gil Hodges at first base, he said on another thread.