How does something like this happen? I never bought into most of the talk about him being an absolutely awful RF, but a Gold Glover? Is this a sick joke?
If it is not a sick joke, this award proves how meaningless Gold Glove awards are. Abreu did not have a good year in the field this year, and he has been consistently awful since the Phillies installed him in right. However, this award might make him more attractive in a trade.Originally Posted by MasonDixon
Is there a rightfielder who fields his position worse than Abreu? Is there anybody less willing to injure himself in pursuit of a fly ball?
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It's a shame he gets this award because he really dogs it in the outfield. It's not worth it to Abreu to hustle in the outfield and risk hurting himself ,because if he does, the stats that he loves so much might suffer.
"For who? For what?" - Ricky Watters
It's all about rep. He enhanced his overall rep by hitting all those homers at the AS game. What a joke. Did you hear Gillick gushing about him and Burrell today? Yikes! Gonna be another long year next year!
Sometimes you can overlook a good thing when its right in front of you. Abreu is a quality major league outfielder, and has been for years. Burrell is getting close. Rollins is on the verge of being a great player...Utley and Howard look like they have potential.... there is a good nucleus here...
as for Abreu, who is better in the NL? the only other option may be Guillen...
Walker is too old and hobbled up, and a lot of the other RFs were journeymen or young guys...
And sometimes the old adage, "there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics" rears it's ugly head. The guy is a stone cold dog! Roof roof! He's petrified of the fence and quits on more balls than Tony Gonzalez (the baseball player, not the tight end), he makes more mental mistakes than Jeff Stone and he's the LEAST clutch ~.300 hitter in the majors.
Other than that he's great. Let's hope to God Stand Pat doesn't stand pat. Neither of the corner outfielders hits in the clutch and neither is downright dependable when it really counts.
Hell, third inning, 5-1 game, both are superstars. Loosey goosey, dynamite. Eigth inning, 3-3 game, they both melt like spring snow on a chimney top.
Abreu is the FIRST move I make. Especially now that he's got another crown to add to his trade value. Because mark my words, in two years he'll be a run of the mill .265 hitter who's timid in the outfield and will have ZERO trade value. Which is what makes him our kind of guy.
To answer your question, I'd take Jeff Francouer, Shawn Green, absolutely Brian Giles, today, over him in the NL, and in the AL there aren't too many I WOULDN'T take over him!
This year get the MLB package and watch some Phillies games. You'll be enlightened.
another point of view:
Abreu's steadiness finally got him noticed. Runners have long ago stopped challenging his cannon arm and he rarely leaves his feet, but the Venezuelan seldom misses a game -- or a play that has to be made.
2005 GOLD GLOVE WINNERS
P Kenny Rogers 4 Greg Maddux 15
C Jason Varitek 1 Mike Matheny 4
1B Mark Teixeira 1 Derrek Lee 2
2B Orlando Hudson 1 Luis Castillo 3
SS Derek Jeter 2 Omar Vizquel 10
3B Eric Chavez 5 Mike Lowell 1
OF Torii Hunter 5 Andruw Jones 8
OF Vernon Wells 2 Jim Edmonds 8
OF Ichiro Suzuki 5 Bobby Abreu 1
all those managers and coaches can't be that wrong.....and they all have pretty good seats to watch the games from....Francoeur? he's only played a half year..aren't you jumping the gun a bit???
Really? The quality of the decisions the likes of Charlie Manuel made on the field last year is supposed instill confidence that his ilk recognizes the value of a defensive player that anyone here who knows baseball clearly sees as timid and avoids any kind of difficult play? I referenced Tony Gonzalez earlier for a very good reason. In his day, the early 60s, he set a record for consecutive errorless chances in the OF, which kind of puts an exclamation point on my earlier reference to stats being a kind of lie. The pure and simple fact about Tony G was he never went after anything that wasn't hit right at him. He never dove, never left his feet and only played the safe chances. It's an afront to a guy like Larry Bowa who gave his all on every ball and led the league year after year in every defensive category including attempts assists, fewest errors but won exactly how many Gold Gloves? And why was that? Because Dave Concepcion was a better hitter. No other reason. Abreu's stock rose because of his show at the AS game, no other reason. He was third on the Phillies in OF assists behind a part time player in Jason Michaels, and spare me that they were afraid of his arm. He's no Johnny Callison! He has a strong but relatively inaccurate arm, and he's not feared because half the time he's taking the wrong route or lolly gagging after the ball. Pat Burrell has had more assists than him every year they've played together but two and no one will mistake him for Roberto Clemente anytime soon either.
Last edited by johncap; 11-03-2005 at 08:18 AM.
If you continue to make comments like the above, you will continue to have zero credibility. Abreu is a lousy rightfielder; if you worship him, you are worshipping a golden calf, not a gold glove. Abreu seldom misses a game because he tip toes around the outfield like the timid little man he is. Where the hell is your common sense? If it were true that Abreu was the best rightfielder in the NL (and he is not even close to that), then the gold glove award should have been vacated for 2005.
I'm all for Bobby winning the Gold Glove because it means Endy has a pretty good chance of getting voted MVP.
The Phillies Barstool Lives!
As a group of Gold Glovers the NL team can really hit.
Then give them a Gold Bat.
The Phillies Barstool Lives!
I too haven't noticed Abreu to have a great glove.
Simply... TAKING BACK THE EAST IN 2007
The facts don't support you.... a good idea to compare Abreu with Giles: not counting the first two years of their careers, when they didn't get many at bats, Giles has 9 years experience with 3 clubs, Abreu 8 years patrolling the outfield with the phillies.
At bats per year: Abreu 565; Giles 503 abreu is either more durable or puts the ball into play more;
runs per year: Abreu 104; Giles 92 - you're giving up some runs scored
RBIs per year: Abreu 94; Giles 92 - pretty much a wash
HR per year: Abreu 23; Giles 27 - pretty much a wash
offensively, abreu is better with runs scored and stolen bases
Fielding:
Total chances per year: Abreu 309; Giles 294
Abreu gets to more balls per year - so that timid stuff is just a load of cr#p
Put outs per year: Abreu 293; Giles 280 - encore
Assists per year: Abreu 10.6; Giles 8.4
Errors per year: Abreu 5.5; Giles 5.78
FPCT: Abreu 0.982; Giles 0.981
Abreu is a better right fielder - no contest
maybe you need to get the mlb package and watch some more padres games
Here's an assignment for you, LP fan. Analyze your stats, and you tell us what they do not cover and where they fall short.
well, obviously lots is not covered: doubles, triples, walks, on base percentage, to name a few offensively
however, upon further analysis, Abreu still comes out ahead of Giles:
Total bases: Abreu 293/y; Giles 271/y
Walks: Abreu 107; Giles 98
Stolen bases: Abreu: 29; Giles 10
OBP: Abreu .4ll; Giles .413
TPA: Abreu 681; Giles 612
On the whole you can expect Abreu to steal more bases, bat more times, walk more times, get on base as much, yada yada yada....
but, if you were talking about clutch hitting, etc... wouldnt that pretty much wash out over 8 years of stats?
or are you getting at more intangibles,like, is he a good clubhouse guy, does he tell jokes in the shower?, is he nice to the reporters? does he care about his team mates? how can anyone who is not a player know about that?
Defensively, as this is about a gold glove, how else can you compare the 2 players? maybe if Bobby played a few more innings than he'd get a few more chances......over 8/9 years of stats, I don't really know how much of a factor that is; I guess where I fell short, is like Giles, most of his throws fall short of home plate.....
anyways, dblock, I know we don't agree on much, but, hey I think we're both phillies fans.....heres to the World Series in '06..or ' 07..Gillick is a winner...good track record
quite possibly Matt Lawton and definetly Matt Stairs. unlike the two of them though, Abreu does have an arm for RF...even if it is average by RF standards.
not a right fielder, but i'd have to say steroid bonds.Is there anybody less willing to injure himself in pursuit of a fly ball?
RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat
AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO
Angel of Death
Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
Infamous butcher,
Angel of Death
I'll settle for '06. Gillick, however, appears to have accepted this job to ease his way into retirement. If he is serious about being a Phillies' GM rather than a management lap dog, then he should start by trading that fabulous gold glover, Abreu. He can use your stats to make other teams want him.
Now you can atone for your sins, LP fan, by staying away from CB Park this year.
My God, do I wish I had seen this dreck earlier. Let me ask you, do you ever watch actual baseball ,or do you play the games usingthe back of their player cards like we did when we were kids? Stratomatic maybe? See, the point is that when a guy goes 4-4 with 4 RBI and they win 11-2 and then the next day strikes out three times leaving 5 guys on base and they lose 2-1, he ends up with great stats but they're very soft stats. I don't know if the kind of detail I'd like to see exists but I GUARANTEE you that both Abreu and Pat Splat have VERY different numbers late in close games than they do in blow outs. ONE time this year did Abreu deliver after the sixth inning in a close game, that I recall and I'm pretty familiar with about every game they played. Those numbers mean squat and I'm so tired of stats being used to blindly justify today's players.
Eddie Murray can you hear me?
Abreu is a dog, with fantasy baseball numbers. He's far from the guy I want up needing any kid of hit late in a close game. And THAT is how I rate the value of an offensive player. Brian Giles is a clutch guy who will run into the wall to make a play for you, just like his brother. Don't embarrass yourself anymore trying to show Abreu superior to Giles. I'd trade Abreu and another player to get Brian Giles here.
Giles is a free agent, no?
Anyway, I've long considered Abreau the best trading chip the Phillies have. This Gold Glove hardware can only pump up the value.
You are the one who should be embarrassed: you made a qualitative, opinionated statement without any evidence to support it.....I at least provide some evidence to support my point of view....
thank God you're not the new GM then....
Abreu leads a team that won 88 games....Giles stumbles around with a barely .500 club, and has done nothing to improve that team in 3 yrs...no thanks, I'd pass on that trade.
Abreu is only one of the best hitters in baseball. the thing to do would be to keep him, and acquire Giles. Burrell, Giles, Abreu, Howard and Utley are going generate more than enough offense to compensate for a below average defensive CFer.
RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat
AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO
Angel of Death
Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
Infamous butcher,
Angel of Death
Then "God" is responsible for the latest Phillie screw-up. Abreu does not lead the Phillies; he is not a leader. He is exactly what Johncap says he is: a soft stats guy who chokes in the clutch. Giles is far better than Abreu; he is even better at drawing bases on balls. If you would pass on that trade, then you would fail on that trade.
The FBI says they can prove it through physics in a nuclear laboratory. Of course they can prove it. Theoretical physics can also prove that an elephant can hang off a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy! But use your eyes, your common sense..
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