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Thread: DM Classic IV Keeper League - General Discussion

  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Bedard View Post
    I like the idea of starting in 1901 a little better than starting in 2008, personally. I'm up for whatever, though.
    I'd also be interested in starting in 1901, or even 1927, 1941, etc. with a new spinoff league.

  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by dust bunnies View Post
    After reading these threads, I now more fully understand why the league is so unbalanced, W-L wise. In 1961 were there, what 8 teams and four "orphans?" Then four more expansion teams? Therefore with the long signing times and HTD available, it's clear why the winners are heavily weightled toward the 1961ers.

    Is this also why several of you are wishing to start a new league? To even out the competitive balance? Very interesting. Sorry I started this.
    --The advantages of the 1961 draft are worn pretty thin now. I have 3 players left from my original draft and I doubt anybody else has many more, if as many. None of my 3 are going to have much value past next season. The HTD came in with expansion/conversion from "designated doormats" to owned teams in 1964 and didn't really have an impact until this last offseason (the 1964 draftees were the first to have the 20% resigning advantage).
    --Personally I'd like to see a new league start up just for the extra fun of it. It would be fun to have a little different take on things and a different group of players to work with. Especially in the seasons where my CKL team may be out of contention (which I expect to see in 1972). I would hope that a second league would not detract from this one.

  3. #1003
    If we were to start another league I feel that what period we play should mostly be decided by whomever would be the commish. As he(she) would be doing most of the work, it should be a labor of love
    Personally, I would play in any league with you guys but I don't feel qualified to run a league with only a couple of years experience, even now I still mess up in sending my MP

    Ed
    There are 10 kinds of people. Those who get binary and those who don't.

  4. #1004
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    I'm in the VAMBA League with some of the other guys from this league (Joe Clark, Kenley Webb, I apologize if I missed anyone else). It started in 1950 and has what I think is an excellent twist. The premise was "What would baseball be like without the Pirates and Athletics, so each league has seven teams. I believe (although I wasn't around) that it was a draft, with all players released into a pool, but it may have started with original rosters, then adding via draft the Pirates/Athletics players. The twist I like is that in the first round each year of the rookie draft, a team may, prior to any picks being taken, reserve one of his team's actual rookies as his first round pick. For example, I have the White Sox, and the first draft I participated in was 1958. The White Sox actually had Norm Cash and Johnny Romano debut that year, so for my first rounder I reserved Norm Cash, and no one else could take him.

    At any rate, were I to decide to try another league I would probably start at the beginning, in 1901. I know there are Home Brew seasons out there for every year. I would most certainly prefer that over starting in 2007. If there were enough support from the current owners, I might try to do another league, but I would definitely want 12 committed owners up front, and I don't know as that's possible.
    You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

  5. #1005
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    Incidentally, I still have Bill Freehan, Ron Santo and Ted Abernathy from my 1961 draft. I also have Willie McCovey, who I got in a trade for Jim Bunning prior to the 1961 season starting, so he's always been a Legend as well. I lost Al Downing in the expansion, and Ron Kline retired a career Legend. Juan Marichal was traded, but is still going strong for the Knights.
    You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

  6. #1006
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    --Considering the small rosters used in the early years I think we could go with as few as 8 teams in a 1901 draft. I don''t think I'd use more than 10 to start anyway. We definately have that many owners you could count on. Roster sizes were pretty small then - and if you used a DH - you'd need some depth. This is even more true of pitching staffs. DMB defaults to modern pitching conventions even using old time teams and the deadball staffs were too small to support that.

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by catcher24 View Post
    At any rate, were I to decide to try another league I would probably start at the beginning, in 1901. I know there are Home Brew seasons out there for every year. I would most certainly prefer that over starting in 2007. If there were enough support from the current owners, I might try to do another league, but I would definitely want 12 committed owners up front, and I don't know as that's possible.
    I don't think a league with twelve would work for 1901. Eight might be sufficient.

    I'm certainly up for it, and I believe jkc and Ed are as well. That's four right here.

  8. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by catcher24 View Post
    Incidentally, I still have Bill Freehan, Ron Santo and Ted Abernathy from my 1961 draft. I also have Willie McCovey, who I got in a trade for Jim Bunning prior to the 1961 season starting, so he's always been a Legend as well. I lost Al Downing in the expansion, and Ron Kline retired a career Legend. Juan Marichal was traded, but is still going strong for the Knights.
    There is only one career Gold Sox, Steve Blass. Blass is also the only continuous player from the 1964 wild card squad (Tony Conigliaro is now back via trade).

  9. #1009
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    Mark and Dan both make good points about starting in 1901, but I would want to start with 12 teams regardless of the year (I'm assuming, of course, a start prior to any expansion) and just go with those right on through. That would use about 75% of the players when rosters become 25 men. Perhaps the way around the early years would be increasing the usage limit at the outset, then reducing it as roster sizes increase. Starting in 1904, when teams more or less started playing the 154 game schedule would probably work best anyway. Glancing at some of the rosters, I think it would work. Some of the minor leaguers would have pretty small amounts of playing time, but I think drawing 12 teams from 16 would work fine.
    You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by catcher24 View Post
    I'm in the VAMBA League with some of the other guys from this league (Joe Clark, Kenley Webb, I apologize if I missed anyone else). It started in 1950 and has what I think is an excellent twist. The premise was "What would baseball be like without the Pirates and Athletics, so each league has seven teams. I believe (although I wasn't around) that it was a draft, with all players released into a pool, but it may have started with original rosters, then adding via draft the Pirates/Athletics players. The twist I like is that in the first round each year of the rookie draft, a team may, prior to any picks being taken, reserve one of his team's actual rookies as his first round pick. For example, I have the White Sox, and the first draft I participated in was 1958. The White Sox actually had Norm Cash and Johnny Romano debut that year, so for my first rounder I reserved Norm Cash, and no one else could take him.

    At any rate, were I to decide to try another league I would probably start at the beginning, in 1901. I know there are Home Brew seasons out there for every year. I would most certainly prefer that over starting in 2007. If there were enough support from the current owners, I might try to do another league, but I would definitely want 12 committed owners up front, and I don't know as that's possible.
    I would also be interested in this if you give it a try.

  11. #1011
    With the 1st pick in the 1901 league I'll take ---- Honus Wagner

    Ed
    There are 10 kinds of people. Those who get binary and those who don't.

  12. #1012
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    There seems to be some interest here in a draft league where the future player performances are unknown. One alternative would be to use Out of the Park. You can actually run a full fictional league, with draft, scouting, minor leagues - all with players the game creates and develops as the years pass. OOTP would also give more variable results than Diamond Mind even for a replay. I ran a few seasons once and Luis Tiant's career ended early with an arm injury, and Johnny Morris, a middling pitcher for the Cardinals, won two Cy Young awards. Just a couple more ideas to toss around. The main problem I see with using OOTP would be the fact that no one has it!
    You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

  13. #1013
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    Games

    As long as you brought it up, I would love to see two or three game simulations, eg DM, OOPS, and Stratomatic, all use the same rosters. See which gives the better results, both as personnel stats and team results. They would all need to be run "centrally", though.

  14. #1014
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    Actually, the first year we did CKL we ran concurrent games. Mark ran the DM version, I did it on OOTP. A vote was then taken, and it was decided to continue the league using DM. I seem to recall feeling that the OOTP stats were a bit more accurate, but the others felt DM did a better job. Or perhaps it was the familiarity with DM that won out for it. OOTP has a financial side to it that DM (and SOM) lack, and some of the owners didn't want to get involved in that. I would enjoy that myself, but I can see where if all you want is a straight replay OOTP wouldn't be your choice. Big advantage to OOTP was free seasons - the game used a database available to anyone to run the sims.
    You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

  15. #1015
    Quote Originally Posted by dust bunnies View Post
    Is this also why several of you are wishing to start a new league? To even out the competitive balance? Very interesting. Sorry I started this.
    Don't be sorry. Personally, I'm ALWAYS up for another league. Just seems like it would be great to have same core group of owners involved in a new venture. Maybe we could try a couple of things that aren't possible in CKL, which I think is great, but why just copy whole rulebook to another era.
    Ed
    There are 10 kinds of people. Those who get binary and those who don't.

  16. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by buppers View Post
    Don't be sorry. Personally, I'm ALWAYS up for another league. Just seems like it would be great to have same core group of owners involved in a new venture. Maybe we could try a couple of things that aren't possible in CKL, which I think is great, but why just copy whole rulebook to another era.
    Ed
    Did you have something specific in mind, Ed, or just tossing out an idea? I've always thought it would be great to start an OOTP league with financials, minors, etc. but I know that at least a few of our present owners aren't interested in the financial end of things - at least not to the extent that OOTP involves them. It would be quite interesting for free agents, though, since the players (via the game engine) actually negotiate for themselves, including making counteroffers.

    If anyone is interested in checking out OOTP2009, THIS LINK will take you to the OOTP Baseball Game home page, and you can use the various links to get game description, features, screen shots, etc.

    I'd be up for something like this in a heartbeat. Probably be a learning curve involved, but if a group of us went into it together, we'd learn together.
    You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

  17. #1017
    Yes, I do have some ideas. Will put together a list and post - right now I have nothing written down, just floating around in my head - probably in a couple of days. Remember, they are just ideas. As for OOTP, I haven't used it. I have played around with Baseball Mogul, which includes all seasons with purchase of game. They also have players negotiate salaries. There is a free demo so I guess anybody who wants to can check it out.
    First, I think we should find out who would be willing to run a league and what format they would like to run.

    Ed
    There are 10 kinds of people. Those who get binary and those who don't.

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by catcher24 View Post
    Did you have something specific in mind, Ed, or just tossing out an idea? I've always thought it would be great to start an OOTP league with financials, minors, etc. but I know that at least a few of our present owners aren't interested in the financial end of things - at least not to the extent that OOTP involves them. It would be quite interesting for free agents, though, since the players (via the game engine) actually negotiate for themselves, including making counteroffers.

    If anyone is interested in checking out OOTP2009, THIS LINK will take you to the OOTP Baseball Game home page, and you can use the various links to get game description, features, screen shots, etc.

    I'd be up for something like this in a heartbeat. Probably be a learning curve involved, but if a group of us went into it together, we'd learn together.
    If you could only get one game would you get OOTP or Diamond Mind? Could you give me some pros and cons for each? I am going to purchase one and trying to decide which.

  19. #1019
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird_1981 View Post
    If you could only get one game would you get OOTP or Diamond Mind? Could you give me some pros and cons for each? I am going to purchase one and trying to decide which.
    If I was going to get one game to run a league such as this, I would probably choose OOTP. It simply does so much more in regards to league reports, web site generation, etc. that there is simply no comparison to DM. I would strongly recommend reading the reviews of each at gamespot.com . As you can see, they rate OOTP9 as an 8.5, with DM coming in at 7.0.

    Reading the reviews will help point out the differences, but some off the top of my head: OOTP shows a player's complete record when you click on their name, including majors and minors, contract info, ratings, etc - all on one screen. OOTP permits you to import ANY season, using one of three different databases available for free (most use the Lahman DB), from 1871 through 2007 - thus, if you so desire, you can replay the complete history of professional baseball. Cost of OOTP is considerably less, too. I believe it is available for $29.95, and as mentioned all teams are free, and there are countless free addons available as well, developed by OOTP gamers. DM is $59.95 to start, and each season disk is, I think, $9.95. OOTP automatically picks a player of the week, player of the month, MVP, Cy Young winner, maintains a complete history of your league(s) - all things that DM cannot do.

    If you want to replay the history of the game and get league stats as close to real as possible, then DM is your game. If you want to replay the history of the game with some variability, have a complete history of your league, have Hall of Fame selections included (you set the criteria), have a player's complete record available with one click, be able to design uniforms from within the game, have financials included in your league, and many other items, then OOTP would be your pick.
    You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

  20. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by buppers View Post
    Yes, I do have some ideas. Will put together a list and post - right now I have nothing written down, just floating around in my head - probably in a couple of days. Remember, they are just ideas. As for OOTP, I haven't used it. I have played around with Baseball Mogul, which includes all seasons with purchase of game. They also have players negotiate salaries. There is a free demo so I guess anybody who wants to can check it out.
    First, I think we should find out who would be willing to run a league and what format they would like to run.

    Ed
    Ed, I've also played Baseball Mogul. It was pretty good and does a good financial simulation, but OOTP does a MUCH better job of simulating the actual baseball stats. BTW, OOTP does have a free download available as well. It is actually the complete game and you can use everything in the game for up to two weeks or an entire replay season (whichever comes first).

    Of the two, Mogul was easier to learn but OOTP is a better experience, IMHO.
    You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

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