DM Classic IV Keeper League - General Discussion

[leecemark]

--JW, this thread can continue to serve as the rules discussion thread. I'll start a 1961 season thread (and a separate schedule thread*) when we're ready to get going. I'll amend the rules in post 2 as we settle on them. I think the first pick/perpetual 12million $ man will be protected from involuntary free agency as long as he remains your highest paid player. The forced free agents are the 2nd thru 10th highest paid. So if you sign a free agent for more than 12m in the 6 years of forced free agency you would be putting that player at risk. The alternative would be to make the forced FA the first thru ninth highest paid, excluding your original pick. I'd be okay with either plan.
*I tried to generate a schedule and get ahead of the game on posting that, but the program rejected scheduling the playerless rosters.

[catcher24]

Posted by Mark:
The alternative would be to make the forced FA the first thru ninth highest paid, excluding your original pick.

This is an excellent alternative. I don't know how the others feel about it, but I think being able to hang onto your first pick for as long as you want, even if another player or players eventually pass him in pay, is a nice option to have. Your idea would make sure that happens.

[catcher24]

Mark - Any decision yet on how the doormats will be handled, ie: will any of their players be available in the draft? My thought was to make all of their players eligible for the draft, then fill them in after the nine human teams are all done. They would still get some pretty decent players, and probably be as competetive (or more so) than just locking in their original players. That way, if anyone else is ever interested in joining, the team they inherit might not be quite so bad. A decision would need to be made on how to handle them in the '62 draft and free agents, but there is time for that discussion later. Just a thought.

[mac195]

My thought was to make all of their players eligible for the draft, then fill them in after the nine human teams are all done. They would still get some pretty decent players, and probably be as competetive (or more so) than just locking in their original players.

We are drafting 40 rounds. It's hard to imagine any decent players going unselected. The doormats would be truely horrible if every player they have is worse than even the minor leaguers on the main squads. I think it would probably be better if the doormats are at least somewhat competitive. If they aren't, then teams will want to resuffle their lineups for almost every series with a doormat to avoid using up PAs and IPs of good players unnecessarily, and that would make for a lot more work running the league. Of course you could fill in the doormats with players from some other era, but that would detract from the realism.

[J W]

I'll officially cast my vote for excluding the first rounder from the PFM lists, joining C24. I still like the idea of penalizing the team at least a little bit for trading or releasing their franchise guy... like a $5 mil cap hit or something. But the first part is more important to me.

Re: doormats -- I'm under the impression now, that these three teams (1961 Phillies, Royals, Senators) will remain their 1961 versions indeterminately... and that if we expand, we will do so by adding three teams at once (either to the existing divisions or by making a fourth). Players belonging to these doormats would not be eligible for us. I can certainly live with this.

I'm intrigued by C24's suggestion however. I think by tightening the doormats up top-to-bottom, at the expense of their best players, we'll still have awful teams (they'll essentially get draft picks 361-480) but they won't be complete ghosts. I'm with him on this. It may be too late for it though if the draft has started.

*EDIT* looks like mac is against it and believes they would be worse. I wish I could say for sure either way; guess we have to crunch some #s. Perhaps we could incorporate these teams in our own draft? Ooo... that would be awesome... say, at the end of Rounds 10 and 20, each doormat gets three players picked by owners from another division! May be too crazy but I love it.

Re: multi-year contracts -- according to what is written so far, I assume that our bidding process will be thus:

a) FA goes to highest bidder
b) winning bidder determines length of contract based on bid

If that's the case, we've solved our auction problem. Thumbs up!

[leecemark]

--JW, you are correct in that I intend for the doormats to be the 1961 versions of those teams for at least several seasons. Building teams after we draft 360 players out the league would lead to teams that might lose 150 games. As for expansion, I thought is the first expansion would elimiante the doormats. If we ever have three good new owners lined up they could have whatever players were left from 1961 (in their current year version whatever that may be) and draft form the current owners unwanted players. They would be defacto doormats in their first season, but could build competitive teams within a year or two. We don't really need to settle that issue now though. I'd be surprised if we need to expand for the next couple "years". History says we will be looking for a replacement owner or two each season rather than expanding to a new group.

[J W]

Entirely fine with keeping the doormats as is. We've started the draft anyways.

[catcher24]

Posted by JW:
Perhaps we could incorporate these teams in our own draft? Ooo... that would be awesome... say, at the end of Rounds 10 and 20, each doormat gets three players picked by owners from another division! May be too crazy but I love it.

Actually, JW, I was going to propose such an idea, but wasn't exactly sure how to go about it. I like your idea a great deal. Perhaps they should get one pick each after round five, two at ten, three at fifteen, four at twenty - and then one pick every round. I imagine there will be serious opposition to this, but I like the idea. Although this way they wouldn't take the cream, they would be competitive, and in future years they could be included in the rookie draft.

[leecemark]

--I like the idea of drafting our doormats along the lines of JW/Lew's plan. That would solve the problem of the doormats not aging and evolving along with the other teams. It is a bit of a technical problem though. The draft program is going to require me to pick a player for each team in the league in turn. Using the currently assigned doormats, as is, I can just pluck somebody off their roster as their pick as it comes up. Deferring their pick until later and doing multiple picks would complicate the process quite a bit.

[J W]

Well, the biggest problem with doing it that way in my book is that we've already started... but skimming through the three teams, I don't see anybody being drafted for a short while at least.

If we draft for the doormats, I suggest we do so three picks at a time so everyone can get their shot in at the same time. I'd also do them after even #ed rounds so none of us gain advantage (yes this would help me the most).

How's this, 6 picks after every 10 rounds. We can go right through our ladder as each of us would pick 1 player for the two doormats in other divisions... and pick up right where we leave off at round 11/21/31.

The doormats end up with 18 players to our 40. Then we can fill the rest after the draft.

Here's the kicker--we don't necessarily need to progress these teams. We can, or we can keep them right where they are year-after-year (assuming Mark was going to do so anyway).

Is this ok? We could field decent doormats this way if 1961 is all we have to worry about... but they'll still finish last. And it's merely a blip on our schedule.

[leecemark]

--As I said, drafting the doormats rather than using intact teams creates a technical problem for me. I wouldn't mind some extra work if the gain for the league as a whole was worth it, but making the players off these 3 teams available doesn't seem to be a big plus. I'm afraid this idea isn't going to fly. We can discuss rules for 1962 and forward, but unless some unforseen issue comes up I think the rules for 1961 are going to have to remain as is.

[catcher24]

Quick note, and couple of questions this morning, before I go to work.

Mark, I understand your technical problem. I am going to have the same one filling in the rosters for the OOTP version. I'm simply going to draft one of the current players onto each doormat roster when their turn comes up in the draft. You could do the same thing, with some restrictions on who can be selected, to avoid the doormats getting the cream, which of course we are trying to avoid. Perhaps something along the lines of, no player who had over 100 career WS could be picked in the first 15 rounds, then anyone is fair game over the remaining draft. Of course, the easiest (and at this juncture, probably the route to take) is leave them alone for 1961, then permit them to participate in the new player draft for the succeeding years, or let them sign some free agents no one else picks up.

Anyway, two rules clarifications:
1. When does the FA clock start ticking on players drafted and placed in the minors? Does the six years start counting right away, or only after they appear on a ML roster? I think I saw the answer somewhere, but can't find it right away.
2. If I take a player in, say, round 12 for 750K and then place him in the minors, does his salary increase every year? According to the rules, it wouldn't.

[leecemark]

--For 1961 the teams are going to have to remain as is. No 1961 Phillies, Senators or A's are draft eligible. We can discuss their future season construction later, but C24's idea seems workable.
--Players drafted in 1961 won't be subject to the 6 year clock. If you manage to hang on to them through the 6 years of forced free agency they would never be eliigible to "file". They would be on your roster until their cost outweighs their value to you or they retire. Players drafed 1962 forward have their 6 years tracked from draft year. All players drafted in 1962 will be on the free agent market in 1968, even if they only have a couple years of MLB service time.
--Players who spend the ENTIRE season in the minors will not be due the 250K raise. A single plate appearance or batter faced will require a salary hike though. That will create some hard choices about who to call up to fill a short term need, and September call ups.
--The Basic Rules in post number 2 of this thread have been updated as we've agreed to changes or additions to the original ones.

[catcher24]

Posted by Mark:
No 1961 Phillies, Senators or A's

That's really too bad , because as I look at the Phils' roster, I can begin to appreciate why three short years later they challenged for the pennant and would in fact have won it if not for the greatest season ending swoon ever. I hope we can tap into some of that talent next year; the problem is figuring out how to work it. And thanks for clarifying those two questions for me!

[leecemark]

--Lew, I only see two players on that team who went on to be more than solid players. Johnny Callison was a very good OF for most of the 60s, although not quite an elite one. Same for pitcher Chris Short. There are some others who could help a team and possibly start, but nobody who is going to be a difference maker. The As and Senators have even less in the way of upside (although Norm Seiburn is the best 1961 player in any of the 3 teams).
--The best pitcher on that 64 Phillies club, Jim Bunning, came via trade and is unlikely to suit up for the Phillies in our league (but is draft eligible). The best player, Richie Allen, hadn't reached the majors in 1961 and will be draft eligible when he arrives in a couple years.
--P.S. Its your pick whenever you're ready.

[catcher24]

Posted by Mark:
--P.S. Its your pick whenever you're ready

HUH??!! What have I missed now? I thought the draft was occurring tonight (Friday) at 7PM! I must have screwed up somewhere. Is there a draft thread that I missed? I don't check each section every day. Darn!

[538280]

HUH??!! What have I missed now? I thought the draft was occurring tonight (Friday) at 7PM! I must have screwed up somewhere. Is there a draft thread that I missed? I don't check each section every day. Darn!

Mark said he wants everyone here so we can go through the first few rounds tonight, but he also said that I could make the first pick whenever I wanted. I made the first pick a few days ago, and the draft is already underway.

[catcher24]

OK, thanks, Chris. I did figure it out and made my first pick. The lightening rounds tonight will be nerve wracking, though!

[J W]

I'm checking in for tonight. (HERE!)

It might be a good idea for everyone else who's here by now to post as such. BTW Blalack, take your time, my head needs to stop spinning before I draft.

[mac195]

Am I drafting against a bunch of foggy-headed holiday drunks today? Excellent.

[mac195]

Hmmmmmmm.......... I see a potential problem here. The FanHome clock is about 15 minutes behind real time. I have an appointment at 9:00 EST (real time) so I'll have to be out of here at at about 8:40 FanHome time... can resume at 9:50 if others are here.

[Nails]

I'm in and I'm on codeine. I also get to start working at 8 (which shouldn't be too much of a problem).

[leecemark]

--What is Fan Home? I've got about 3:20. We can get underway as soon as Charles checks in (or 4:05 if he isn't here by then). The current rotation is Charles, JW for 2 (present), back to Charles, Nails (present), Lew (not here yet, but I'm sure he will be on time, Edgar (??), Dudecar (who sent me a list), Mac (present), Me (present) and Chris for 2 (I expect he will be here too). I have someplace to be at 6:30 PST, so the scheduled 2 hours is all I can do. I will check back in later this evening though.

[catcher24]

OK, here I am checking in. Haven't been this nervous for a while. It's a lot different drafting players you're going to live with for several years rather than for one season! Any major mistakes here could haunt a team for three or four years, at least.

[J W]

merf.

That's it! I'm drafting Ty Cobb.