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Thread: Cuban Players Defectors

  1. #661
    The AFL Rosters been released Michel Abreu and Yunel Escobar are going, pretty sure their are other cuban Native players going.
    http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/a...=.jsp&sid=l119
    Last edited by jon7jmets; 08-23-2006 at 08:24 PM.

  2. #662
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubanball
    Jorge Posada was born in Puerto Rico to a Cuban Father and Dominican mother. Leo Posada was his uncle. Read More:

    JORGE POSADA
    The New York Yankees Catcher met with the Latino Press at Yankee Stadium July 28th to discuss, among other things, his national and ethnic identity.

    “Vamos estar claro,” (Let’s be clear) Jorge responded. “Yes, I feel Cuban and yes I feel Dominican. I grew up in a Cuban community in Puerto Rico and during the summer days I would play with children born in Puerto Rico of Cuban parents. I would love to go to Cuba. I have never been there. I always went to Dominicana (Dominican Republic). I have family in Santo Domingo where I spent my summers as a child. Now in the off-season I visit there in the winter. On my mother’s side my relatives live in Dominicana; on my father’s side, thank God, with the Cuban Exile, they all have lived in Puerto Rico.”
    Thanks. I saw this listing of Jorge:

    http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseb...sada_Jorge.stm
    Nephew of Leo Posada
    Leo Posada, born in Havana, Cuba.

    Thanks.
    Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
    Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
    THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
    Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

  3. #663
    Quote Originally Posted by jon7jmets
    The AFL Rosters been released Michel Abreu and Yunel Escobar are going, pretty sure their are other cuban Native players going.
    http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/a...=.jsp&sid=l119

    Thank you, John.

    Amaury Marti will play for the Saguaros as well as Geovani Gonzalez who is Cubanamerican.

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright
    Please show me one case of a Japanese player not previously under MLB contract getting what he could command in Japan, and I will consider rescinding my charge that MLB is cheap. Every one of the guys who has come over has taken a pay cut to do it. Every last one. Doesn't the consistency of that prove something?

    Yes, Japanese baseball is cheap, too. They're in it to make money, not be fair to players After that, it's all a discussion of the degree of unfairness. Latin Americans get screwed worse essentially because they start with less bargaining power. That's the economic hardball reality. It stinks, but it is quite real.

    Jim Albright
    --I agree with Agente, why should MLB pay the market value of the player in Japan?????????????????????? So are you telling me that if Alex Ochoa or Alex Cabrera, or Tuffy Rhodes decided to come back to MLB they should get paid based on their market value in Japan???????????? Again, they have the choice not to come over, and not take that pay cut, show me another player in the world who has that luxury. Excellent comparison between Abreu and Taguchi Agente.
    Yankees' payroll: $250 millions
    Marlins' payroll: $50 millions
    Marlins winning The Series: Priceless

    "Visiting Americans love going to Cuban games because with no free agency, no franchise movement and no owners blackmailing cities for new stadiums, it all smacks of 1950's America, ignoring the inconvenient fact that such a fantasyland is only possible in a dictatorship"-S.L. Price

  5. #665
    Thanks for the info jon. Javier Herrera, who is Cuban American is playing on the same team with Yunel Escobar.
    Yankees' payroll: $250 millions
    Marlins' payroll: $50 millions
    Marlins winning The Series: Priceless

    "Visiting Americans love going to Cuban games because with no free agency, no franchise movement and no owners blackmailing cities for new stadiums, it all smacks of 1950's America, ignoring the inconvenient fact that such a fantasyland is only possible in a dictatorship"-S.L. Price

  6. #666
    The following is my take on all of this:

    Japanese players have special circumstances as well as Cuban players. If MLB can accomodate the Japanese players, they should also have a process much better than the one we have now for Cuban defectors. Cuban defectors also have a dream of reaching the big leagues like any other player in this world and getting paid according to their skills and age.

    Why is MLB putting so many hurdles to Cuban defectors?
    This has nothing to do with Castro or the Embargo. It has a lot to do with MLB an MLBPA.

    Cuban players at least should get the chance to negotiate with different teams as free agents. More importantly, they should be able to sign right away without losing extended time away from baseball by waiting for the Draft or going to a third country to obtain free agent status.

  7. #667
    Alain Soler finally pitched again.
    http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/a...vrasx_broasx_1

  8. #668
    Super Kendry Morales is back.
    http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/a...spaaa_slcaaa_1

    Michel Abreu hit the ball hard and far. Hasta la vista baby. HR (17).
    http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/a...=l_sco&lid=113
    Last edited by Cubano100%; 08-24-2006 at 07:48 PM.

  9. Michel Abreu named to Eastern League All-Star Team


  10. #670
    Also on that team is Cuban-American Henry Owens, who is a teammate of Abreu with the B Mets, and a member of the USA Natn'l Team going to Habana for the Olympic Qualifiers.
    Yankees' payroll: $250 millions
    Marlins' payroll: $50 millions
    Marlins winning The Series: Priceless

    "Visiting Americans love going to Cuban games because with no free agency, no franchise movement and no owners blackmailing cities for new stadiums, it all smacks of 1950's America, ignoring the inconvenient fact that such a fantasyland is only possible in a dictatorship"-S.L. Price

  11. #671

    Olympic Qualifiers

    Folks, the tournament started yesterday at the Latinoamericano
    in Havana. First game, Cuba 14, Colombia 0. http://www.baseball.ch/PanAm/BEIBS001.HTM

    The Cuban starting 9 is pretty similiar to the lineup they
    offered at the World Baseball Classic.

    r

  12. #672
    Mayeta is really killing the ball

  13. #673

    Johan Limonta

    Saw Johan Limonta play yesterday in Appleton, WI (Wisconsin TimberRattlers, Midwest League) and he went 2-4 with an RBI. He's raised his average to .241, 6 HR, 24 RBI in 212 ABs after a slow start. He's headed to fall instructional league after his first year in pro ball.

    r

  14. #674

    More on Limonta

    Limonta was promoted to High A Inland Empire after Sunday's game and
    homered in his first appearance Monday night!

    Go Johan

  15. #675
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright
    JP

    With all due respect, it is a lack of communication. While I did not spell out in this thread explicitly the first time that I was not trying to justify why things are this way, I happen to think a fair reading of it would reveal that I was seeking to explain the status quo rather than justify it. Whether I am right or not, you read it as trying to justify the status quo.

    In the other instance you mention, I don't happen to like it, and that's why I included the portion about its unfairness. It also happens to be a situation I don't see that I have much ability to affect. Please don't read into what I'm saying that it also means we should just accept it. If I wanted to say that, I would have.

    I will try to be as clear as I can, but I'm already quite wordy, I'm sure too much so for some folks. The instant nature of this mode of communication is not helpful to such precise wording, however. I would ask you to take similar care in not reading things into what other people write. Thanks.

    Jim Albright
    Jim,

    Look back several hundred posts and you'll see we've covered most of this ground before, to no avail. There is an unwillingness among some here to see how political and economic factors converge to create a situation that is regrettable, but in no way designed to stick it to one nationality. For us, it's just baseball and not a vital sector of the economy or society. For Cubans, you are talking about a major slice of national pride. It is much easier to cry discrimination and blame MLB than it is to blame the closed society of Cuba, where players can't establish a fair market value or engage in international business negotiations. Here in the US, at least you can raise your voice and feel empowered, even when you don't have a leg to stand on. In the end its a lot of misdirected rage and nothing you say will budge anyone an inch. I suppose when you come from a country where rule is by decree, it is incomprehensible that a wave of a single hand can't restore the scales of social justice.

    On a personal note: get out of the discussion now before you are accused of being an agent of Castro. That's the ad hominem of choice in this thread.

    2007 World Series Champions
    The Boston Red Sox


  16. #676
    I see Flash's reading comprehension level hasn't impoved since the last visit.

    Anyway, saying "that's the way it is" is hardly a worthwhile comment, but if that's all Jim said, people likely would have accepted it at face value and left it alone. But when Jim claimed Japanese players -- who live in a non-totalitarian country and are governed by *collectively bargained* statutes between the Japanese players and owners -- are being shafted by MLB to the same degree, or worse than, Cubans are treated, people rightfully called B.S. on that.

    Jim offered some explanations, and then said "Cubano started it," and then hasn't been heard from since. Frankly, I still don't know what his point was. Unless he had a little too much saki that day, he can't possibly believe Japanese players face a tougher road to MLB than Cubans.

  17. #677
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    Agente,

    I wouldn't get personal with flash, and frankly, you are dangerously close to doing so with me. Don't go there, or I shall be forced to exercise some of the powers moderators are vested with to deal with such behavoir.

    However, please show me where I ever said Japanese players have it as tough as Cubans. I do not believe I ever said such a thing. If I did, it was a typo. However, that does not make MLB's treatment of Japanese players fair. That was and remains my point. The fact MLB is more unfair to Cubans than Japanese is irrelevant to whether or not they are fair to the Japanese.

    Also, my response about Cubano starting the discussion into the topic of Japanese was based on your accusation that I had initiated this portion of the discussion.

    Agente, I chose to leave this topic alone as it was obvious we were not getting any closer to resolution, and the conversation was getting near the point of degenerating in the fashion you have come so perilously close to doing. Perhaps I could have written more clearly, but I believe you could have read my posts more closely and with better comprehension as well.

    And flash, please don't go casting aspersions about Cubans on this site. That is in just as perilous a territory as Agente is in. This type of discussion stops here and now, or some people are getting a vacation of at least 48 hours from the site.

    Personal attacks on anybody at this site are unwelcome--whether it be attacking someone's sobriety, politics, nationality or something else. I will not tolerate them.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  18. #678
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright
    However, please show me where I ever said Japanese players have it as tough as Cubans. I do not believe I ever said such a thing. If I did, it was a typo. However, that does not make MLB's treatment of Japanese players fair. That was and remains my point. The fact MLB is more unfair to Cubans than Japanese is irrelevant to whether or not they are fair to the Japanese.
    Well, then why did you make your point in the middle of a discussion about Cuba? Why do you continue to blame MLB for issues that are COLLECTIVELY BARGAINED by rich, well-educated Japanese players who live in a democracy as opposed to dirt-poor refugees who have to flee a communist country before even thinking about an MLB career?

    Frankly, I'm still waiting for you to point out any instance of MLB being "unfair" to Japanese players. Was it when Ichiro got $21 million as a first-year MLB player? When So Taguchi got $2 million? When Hideki Irabu flaunted the rules to get $14 million from the Yankees because he felt pitching for the Padres was beneath him?

    Or was it when MLB decided, in 2005, to grant free agency to Japanese players after as little as one MLB season when ALL OTHER PLAYERS need at least 6 years of service?

    Also, my response about Cubano starting the discussion into the topic of Japanese was based on your accusation that I had initiated this portion of the discussion.
    I think Cubano simply pointed out that the Japanese have it a lot better when entering MLB than Cubans do. Barring any evidence to the contrary, Cubano was right.

    Personal attacks on anybody at this site are unwelcome--whether it be attacking someone's sobriety, politics, nationality or something else. I will not tolerate them.

    Jim Albright
    Jim, I apologize if you interpreted my "too much saki" comment as a personal attack, but I thought it was clearly a comment made in jest.

    Moreover, I understand you (presumably) post here under your real name and that doing so might make you more sensitive to comments, responses, etc., but for most of us, an internet board like this is attractive precisely for the bare-knuckles exchanges that occur here. (You seem to be taking my comments as a personal attack but I can assure you they are not. I'm simply trying to figure out where you're coming from on the MLB/Japan issue.)

    Anyway, Flash's post above, which came a week after the fact and from out of left field, was clearly targeted at me and Cubano, and I felt the need to respond in kind. I'm pro-Cuban generally, but I'm far from a Cuban apologist. If you search my posts here, I've probably said as many negative things about Cuban players as I have positive. The idea that some of the pro-Cuban people here are a bunch of drooling, right-wing stooges is just nonsense.

  19. #679
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    Agente

    Bare-knuckles stuff is out of bounds here. This forum hasn't been moderated much due to the fact the individual assigned to the task admits he's not terribly interested in international ball. I am, and as a moderator, will not tolerate such behavoir here, despite the fact it may have been permitted in the past.

    Frankly, if I hadn't taken a deep breath and noticed you had misapprehended my posts, I'm not sure your comment about saki would not have resulted in a 48 hour vacation. You also got a little personal with flash in the same post. I'm telling you and everybody here, personal stuff is out of bounds, and will be dealt with accordingly.

    I saw what flash said, and I also admonished him in my post, as you should have noticed.

    My response to Cubano was in the context that he indicated Japanese players got at least fair treatment, if not favorable treatment. I believe that is false, and have explained my reasons for that belief. I never once said the Cubans don't have it tougher. Indeed, I took pains to indicate the contrary. As I said earlier in this exchange, why is there a need to get into Cubans versus Japanese here, when the only possible beneficiaries of such a battle are the greedy MLB owners? Perhaps making common cause could address the situation of both groups. Beyond that, I have no desire to revisit the issue, not only for the reasons I have already given, but one you've pointed out here and I forgot to mention earlier: this thread is about Cuba, not Japan.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  20. #680
    Jim -- If my joke about saki was enough to warrant a "48-hour vacation," then this is not an internet forum I have much interest in.

    If you do not want to discuss the ways you feel MLB is unfair to Japanese in this thread, why not do so in the Japanese thread? We just went in a huge 1-week circle, and as I said above, I still don't have the slightest clue as to where you're coming from. (Again, just to be super-clear, that's not a personal attack; it's a statement of fact from my perspective.)

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