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Thread: Cuban Players Defectors

  1. #826
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    Nashville, TN
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    93

    Cubano100%!!

    I appreciate the hard work on those stats. I really enjoy reading all that. This is the first place people should go when they have questions about Cuban baseball.

    Maels was even more dominant than I thought. Hope to see him on the comeback trail soon.

    Thanks,

  2. #827
    Forget it J.P. People from outside havana will always see the teams from Havana as the evil empire

  3. #828
    Actually, a really good friend of mine played for Isla de la Juventud, and he used to tell me that even the players on the other teams always wanted to beat Industriales.
    Yankees' payroll: $250 millions
    Marlins' payroll: $50 millions
    Marlins winning The Series: Priceless

    "Visiting Americans love going to Cuban games because with no free agency, no franchise movement and no owners blackmailing cities for new stadiums, it all smacks of 1950's America, ignoring the inconvenient fact that such a fantasyland is only possible in a dictatorship"-S.L. Price

  4. #829
    Everybody had to do with us man. They either hate us or they love us. I remember the grandfather of one of my friends who used to go to Havana and used to tell me that there was such a conspiracy for Industriales to win that even umpires will throw the games for us.
    Is all well Cubano, we know that deep down inside you have always been an Industriales fan. Will give you the O.K. to come into the fan club.

  5. #830

    Numbers

    Cubano,

    Nice job with the numbers . . . I'm getting a new appreciation for
    the Cuban ballplayers. And the legal banter, whew! And Jim, thanks
    for keeping it going. Anything that deals with Cuba is frought with politics, including baseball, so it's inherent that in a forum about Cuba, there's going to be talk about politics also.

    Johan Limonta went 0 for the first three games in the Cal League (High A)
    playoffs, but had a good game yesterday as Inland Empire advanced to the Championship Series.

    http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/a...milb&fext=.jsp

    Anyone know when the Serie Nacional begins?
    Is the "BesibolCubano" site the best site to follow it?
    And does anyone know about a reliever for Isla de la Juventud
    named "Garcia" (wore #40). I bougt one of his uniform shirts
    at a game in Havana back in 2003 or 2004.

    Keep up the good work everyone.

  6. #831

    La Habana

    Is hard not to encounter the opportunistic nature of people in all stages of life, and that is why Cubans follow Industriales the most. Industriales seems to be the team to beat since one fifth of the population lives in Havana, where within the misery you find the best conditions to practice sports compare to the rest of the island. Many young players want to play for the capital and are allow to do it, providing a good supply of players. Metropolitanos is there for support to develop talent (something unheard of any where else) and on top of that it is in the best interest of the government to keep Cubans entertain by their most popular team. You would think this to be a team much more dominant than what Industriales has been.

    Estrada was a great number one hitter , Victor Mesa went to left field when he came up. He hit over 2000 hits and stole close to 350 bases and was only 36 or 37 when he retired. Javier Mendez always seemed to make great plays because he could not get to balls, and it was clearly him who had nothing to offer to the national team, he had no place in the line up, could not hit for power and didn't have speed to be in the top of the order. If he made team Cuba was to serve as a communist dog like he showed in the Panamerican games in 1999.

  7. #832
    [QUOTE=Barbaro Rogelio Amores]Is hard not to encounter the opportunistic nature of people in all stages of life, and that is why Cubans follow Industriales the most. Industriales seems to be the team to beat since one fifth of the population lives in Havana, where within the misery you find the best conditions to practice sports compare to the rest of the island. Many young players want to play for the capital and are allow to do it, providing a good supply of players. Metropolitanos is there for support to develop talent (something unheard of any where else) and on top of that it is in the best interest of the government to keep Cubans entertain by their most popular team. You would think this to be a team much more dominant than what Industriales has been.

    [QUOTE]

    You forget to mention the defectors, which province has been the one with the most????? And we still keep on winning..............keep on hating..........Industriales is still the most emblematic team in Cuban baseball, like it or not!!1
    Yankees' payroll: $250 millions
    Marlins' payroll: $50 millions
    Marlins winning The Series: Priceless

    "Visiting Americans love going to Cuban games because with no free agency, no franchise movement and no owners blackmailing cities for new stadiums, it all smacks of 1950's America, ignoring the inconvenient fact that such a fantasyland is only possible in a dictatorship"-S.L. Price

  8. #833
    I went to the Marlins game last night with a group of people, one of them is from Fomento, the same town as Kendry Morales, he is personal friends with one of Kendry's relatives here in Miami, he told me that when Kendry was sent back to Cuna from the tournament in Panama, he was actually handcuffed by the Castro's watchdogs that travel with team Cuba, and the person responsible for ordering his "arrest" was Victor Mesa. He also confirmed that there was a fight indeed b/w Maels Rodriguez and Yuniesky Gourriel (Yuli's brother), but according to him, this had nothing to do with Maels injury, he was just worn out in Cuba.
    Yankees' payroll: $250 millions
    Marlins' payroll: $50 millions
    Marlins winning The Series: Priceless

    "Visiting Americans love going to Cuban games because with no free agency, no franchise movement and no owners blackmailing cities for new stadiums, it all smacks of 1950's America, ignoring the inconvenient fact that such a fantasyland is only possible in a dictatorship"-S.L. Price

  9. #834


    Oscar Macias
    The Havana province second baseman finished third among batters with an astonishing average of .384 in ‘03, his last year of play. He was a two-time RBI leader who was part of Team Cuba’s Olympic squad in 2000, World Cup team in ‘01 and America’s Cup team in ‘02. He defected in '04 and is living in Florida.
    cubancards.com

  10. #835
    Cubans follow Industriales because the team has won the Cuban National Series a gazillion more times than any other team has ever done. Industriales are the Yankees of Cuban Baseball and everybody has to do with them. People either hate them or like them, but never ignore them.
    The young players you talked about want to play for Industriales because is the team that gets more exposure in national TV, other teams always play them tough and if you made it to the Industriales is because you are a very good darn player. Not all players make it to the Cerro’s Neighborhood stadium, so that’s the reason why they want to play for the blues.
    The Metros are a joke recently but it was they and not the blues making it to the playoffs a few years ago, and yes, they are there to develop players but still manage to collect a few victories along the way (Havana’s B team collected 19 wins in the last National Series which was only 8 less than Hoguin’s 27 and 10 fewer than Matanzas’ 29, two provinces with a rich history of championships and quality players). I think this speaks volumes of the baseball played in Havana.
    By no means I am stating that Estrada was not a very good leadoff hitter but I frimly believe his biggest asset was to be an informer and a very good communist. Best leadoff hitters than him were Reemberto Rosell of Cienfuegos, Carlos Tabares of Industriales, Manuel Benavides of Santiago and Zamora from Villa Clara. Victor Mesa of course went to left field because he had to make the trip with that team as the greatest communist ever. Please, Javier never made it because he was always injured (never mentioned by you my friend that he hit I don’t know how many times 400 plus when healthy at the twilight of his career). I am really surprised he made the team in 1999, he was really old by then. Like you said, they took him to serve as a watchdog for the other players wanting to make it here.

  11. #836
    From Cubanball.com:


    "September 15, 2006 Bronson Arroyo allows 0 runs on 4 hits in 8 innings in win for the Reds. Kenny Perez went 1 for 1 with 1 run scored in pinch hit appearance for the Tucson Sidewinders, who win the Pacific Coast League title.

    September 14, 2006 Raul Ibañez went 2 for 5 for the Mariners. Osbek Castillo allowed 2 runs with 8 Ks in 5 innings in win as the Missoula Ospreys take the Pioneer League (R) title. Johan Limonta went 4 for 5 with 2 RBIs and 1 run scored for the Inland Empire 66ers in the California League (A-Adv) Finals.

    September 13, 2006 Livan Hernandez allowed 2 runs in 8 innings in win for the Diamondbacks.

    September 12, 2006 Mike Lowell went 2 for 4 with 2 runs scored for the Red Sox. Raul Ibañez hit solo HR for the Mariners. Luis Gonzalez got his 50th 2B of the season. Orlando Palmeiro went 1 for 1 with 2 RBIs in pinch hit appearance for Houston. Johan Limonta went 2 for 5 with 2 RBIs and 2 runs scored for the Inland Empire 66ers, who win California League (A-Adv) South Division Finals."

  12. #837
    Are there any MLguers in Cuba right now?


    I mean: Are there any players in Cuba good enough to play in Majors coming straight out of Cuba without going to the minors?

    Please, assume that Cuba-USA relations are normal and MLB scouts can sign Cubans out of either the Cuban National Series or Cuban Super League without spending time away from baseball.

  13. #838
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubano100%
    Are there any MLguers in Cuba right now?


    I mean: Are there any players in Cuba good enough to play in Majors coming straight out of Cuba without going to the minors?

    Please, assume that Cuba-USA relations are normal and MLB scouts can sign Cubans out of either the Cuban National Series or Cuban Super League without spending time away from baseball.
    Well, if the WBC is any guide, it would seem there has to be some, or the Cuban team couldn't have made the finals against rosters with a fair number of major leaguers on them. I wouldn't hazard a guess as to how many, though.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  14. #839
    Pedro Luis Lazo, the big right hander, is the only one I can see coming straight without spending any time on the Minors.
    Yankees' payroll: $250 millions
    Marlins' payroll: $50 millions
    Marlins winning The Series: Priceless

    "Visiting Americans love going to Cuban games because with no free agency, no franchise movement and no owners blackmailing cities for new stadiums, it all smacks of 1950's America, ignoring the inconvenient fact that such a fantasyland is only possible in a dictatorship"-S.L. Price

  15. #840
    Quote Originally Posted by J.P
    Pedro Luis Lazo, the big right hander, is the only one I can see coming straight without spending any time on the Minors.


    Why J.P.? You have the same opinion as DViera.


    Your anwser surprises me when you agreed that Cuban defectors face fewer opportunities than others once defecting. You also agreed that Cubans waste time by either entering the Draft or going to a third country. Cubans can not choose the day they want to defect. When they come, the season already started and teams have set up their rosters not only in the big club but through the minor league systems.

    In addition, scouts have only see them in a few tryouts and not in real game situations. Do you think a team can trust a new player that they have not seen perform often?

    Why have you choosen Pedro Lazo arbitrarily like our friend DViera?

    Let me tell you. Norge Vera has as many wins as Lazo and he already beat a USA Pro team, the Orioles. We know that Vera is a veteran and has had some injuries. But is there any doubts that 5 years ago he could have played in the Majors directly?

    Lazo is getting old by the way.


    Let me remind you that despite loosing significant time away from baseball and without their families and the possibility of going back to their home land, the following players made it very quickly to MLB.

    Yuniesky Betancourt: 3 months from the Mexican streets to AA to AAA to ML.

    Orlando Hernandez: 2-3 months after being away from baseball for at least a year.

    Jose Contreras: I believe he made the team out of Spring Training or only made a handfull of starts in the minors.

    Alay Soler: After playing Winter Ball in Puerto Rico, he only started 6 games in the minors. He was away from baseball for 2 years.

    Kendry Morales: Suspended from Cuban baseball like El Duque. He was away from baseball for at least a year. He should have debuted last year as a September call up but sometimes teams have to give priority to the players in the 40 men roster.

    Michel Abreu: He probably ended the season by being the best hitter in all AA. Should have competed for the 1B position in Boston, but the Red Sox voided his contract. He was stuck in Costa Rica.

    Francisley Bueno had a good ERA in AA. He was away from baseball for more than a year.


    Livan Hernandez debuted less than a year in the minors.


    I assure you that if you bring 50 players from Cuba (pitchers and position players) while playing in the National or Super League with similar numbers as Bueno and Betancourt, some of them will make it straight to the Majors.

    Do you really that Betancourt is the only one who could make it in 3 months?

    How many young players are there in Cuba with better numbers than Betancourt?

    Do you really believe that Yuliesky Gourriel can not even be a back up in the big leagues?

    Yorelvis Charles
    Yorbis Borroto
    Luis Navas
    Giorvis Duvergel
    Yoennis Cespedez
    Frederich Cepeda

    Do you believe that there are not pitchers in Cuba capable of being members of a bullpen in MLB?

    Villo Odelin
    Frank Montieth
    Norberto Gonzalez
    Luis Borroto
    Deinys Suarez
    Yuliesky Gonzalez
    Yadiel Pedroso



    Don't you see when there is talent, they do not last in the minors to long. Don't you think teams want to see how they will perform against some competitions before they are called up to the big club?
    How about learning some English before going to the Big Leagues?


    They are ready for the Majors talent wise. You know I have always written this.

  16. #841
    Cubano, I interpret making it to the big leagues as being successful and stablishing yourself in this institution, not just earning a backup position or a last in the bullpen spot, or making a few starts, or starting a few games. Of course theres talent, there are many players in the island that with just a month, maybe less in the minors, could successfully make the jump. Problem is that in Cuba these players dont face tough competition day in and day out (due to the current 16 teams format) like they would do here; if the # number of teams in the Serie Nacional would be narrowed down, raising the level of competition, and the obstacles faced by Cubans are eliminated, many could make the jump. I chose Pedro Lazo just based on his performance in the WBC, he was the only one who looked dominant in this stage.
    Yankees' payroll: $250 millions
    Marlins' payroll: $50 millions
    Marlins winning The Series: Priceless

    "Visiting Americans love going to Cuban games because with no free agency, no franchise movement and no owners blackmailing cities for new stadiums, it all smacks of 1950's America, ignoring the inconvenient fact that such a fantasyland is only possible in a dictatorship"-S.L. Price

  17. #842
    A lot of players can go straight to the Majors but they will not be able to succeed. In my opinion, they have to fine-tune their way of thinking and to a lesser degree their skills. Also, and this is the most important thing, they have to get accustomed to first living in the USA (learning the language and going past the cultural shock, cope with their family being away, etc) and also learning how to play baseball in this country, which is very different from the one is played at the island. The latter would be in regards of getting used to not touching an umpire under any circumstances, learning what's the mentality of professional baseball players (you are playing baseball because is the way to feed your family), and minor things that they have to learn in order to succeed playing baseball in the USA.

  18. #843
    Don't we have a Super League?

    Haven't we play well against top pro team from USA (Orioles, AAA and top prospects), D.R., Mexico, P.R., Japan and other Asian countries?
    Is not this tough competition?


    As for the cultural shock, I agree. But learning not to touch an umpire is something that does not require to go to the minors. By the way, do all Cuban players touch an umpire?


    I like to point out again that Betancourt made it in 3 months despite all things he had to go through. How many young players are there in Cuba better than Betancourt? I mean players entering their prime baseball years. Isn't three months getting in shape in the minors the same thing as making straight to the big leagues? What can a player learn in three months?


    J.P.: you know I am almost alone on this issue. You know that prior these wave of defections, only some good pitchers defected and some were past their prime. Many position players were bad players. This wave of defectors have more talent than the previous wave. The Cuban season takes place opposite of the USA season. Despite this, one day some players will make it since day one.

    That day many of you will hear from me again on this issue. As soon as the system changes in Cuba, MLB teams will then give more opportunities to Cubans to make it. Cuba has more land than all Caribbean islands combined. MLB teams will try to lure Cuban players to increase their business presence there. I am not talking about Academies I am talking about selling stuff like T-Shirt, memorabilia, etc. MLB will give them the same priority as they do with the Japanese players. Again, I am not comparing the Japanese economy to the Cuban economy. But MLB is going to try to take advantage of the new market.



    There are many b-lguers in Cuba talent wise.
    Last edited by Cubano100%; 09-19-2006 at 10:29 AM.

  19. #844
    I wouldnt call those Orioles or AAA or top prospects teams you mentioned, "top pro teams". The only top competition the Cubans have faced was in the WBC, and in my modest opinion, luck had a lot to do with their second place finish. The only member of that team who looked dominant enough to make the jump straight to the bigs was Pedro Lazo. I think there are players in Cuba right now, that with a month or two in the minors, could make the jump, but as far as straight from the Serie Nacional? I doubt it, but I hope I'm wrong.
    Yankees' payroll: $250 millions
    Marlins' payroll: $50 millions
    Marlins winning The Series: Priceless

    "Visiting Americans love going to Cuban games because with no free agency, no franchise movement and no owners blackmailing cities for new stadiums, it all smacks of 1950's America, ignoring the inconvenient fact that such a fantasyland is only possible in a dictatorship"-S.L. Price

  20. #845
    I think a better question is, How many Cuban players could reach MLB with one year or less in the minors?

    Straight to the big leagues is very tough, especially if the player misses spring training, etc.

  21. #846
    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Libre
    Straight to the big leagues is very tough, especially if the player misses spring training, etc.

    Exactly so.

    It depends on the teams making an evaluation of them on live baseball games.

    It depends on the team they sign with. Ex: Yankees vs Tampa Bay

    It depends on how much time they miss while defecting.

    But it does not depend on their lack of talent.

  22. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by J.P
    I wouldnt call those Orioles or AAA or top prospects teams you mentioned, "top pro teams". The only top competition the Cubans have faced was in the WBC, and in my modest opinion, luck had a lot to do with their second place finish. The only member of that team who looked dominant enough to make the jump straight to the bigs was Pedro Lazo. I think there are players in Cuba right now, that with a month or two in the minors, could make the jump, but as far as straight from the Serie Nacional? I doubt it, but I hope I'm wrong.


    J.P.


    But if they make it to the big leagues, they are b-lguers then. It does not matter if they are the 25 man in the roster because they are in the show. Is not Betancourt a rising star in his position on his first full year?

  23. #848
    This is an open question for everyone.



    If you need to pick one of the following players on each trio for your team, who is that player:



    3B Yuliesky Gourriel vs Nick Punto vs David Bell
    RHP Yuniesky Maya vs Runelvys Hernandez vs Ramon Ortiz
    RHP Frank Motieth vs Livan Hernandez vs Mark Redman
    LF Frederich Cepeda vs Preston Wilson vs Melky Cabrera


    I am talking about breaking into the season with them.

  24. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by Cubano100%
    J.P.


    But if they make it to the big leagues, they are b-lguers then. It does not matter if they are the 25 man in the roster because they are in the show. Is not Betancourt a rising star in his position on his first full year?
    If you interpret making it to the bigs by taking a cup of coffee, then yes, many could make it, now, stablish themselves as big leaguers, not many straight out of the National Series. Yes, Yuni is very much a rising star, but he got to where he is at because of his glove, and then they have taught him to hit the braking ball, if he didnt have his magnificient glove, he wouldnt had gotten his chance so fast.
    Yankees' payroll: $250 millions
    Marlins' payroll: $50 millions
    Marlins winning The Series: Priceless

    "Visiting Americans love going to Cuban games because with no free agency, no franchise movement and no owners blackmailing cities for new stadiums, it all smacks of 1950's America, ignoring the inconvenient fact that such a fantasyland is only possible in a dictatorship"-S.L. Price

  25. #850
    Make no mistake cubano, we know theres talent in Cuba, but when the regime changes (soon hopefully), Cuban players are going to be signed at a young age, so we are not going to be faced with this question, I think the Serie Nacional will be a thing of the past, we would have to go to an 8 team winter league.
    Yankees' payroll: $250 millions
    Marlins' payroll: $50 millions
    Marlins winning The Series: Priceless

    "Visiting Americans love going to Cuban games because with no free agency, no franchise movement and no owners blackmailing cities for new stadiums, it all smacks of 1950's America, ignoring the inconvenient fact that such a fantasyland is only possible in a dictatorship"-S.L. Price

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