Let's Deal With Barry Bonds.

[StanTheMan]

Doesn't matter if everybody was doing them the creme still rises to the top

Is Bin Laden the greatest terrorist in history? Assuming among those who were doing it, no one esle was as great as he?


The push up illegality issue is not relative to the creams rising to the top (it does, anyone arguing differently is a fool) but rather pushups are a poor comparison to illegal PED's for many reasons. Effectiveness in increasing performance being tantamount.

[StanTheMan]

It's also possible that Barry Bonds was the second shooter on the grassy knoll.

Not once does Barry Bonds say that he got something out of Sweeney's locker and in his only public statement on the matter he refutes the notion that he did. But hey, anything is possible.

The blinders some wear are incredible.

Bonds told MLB officials he failed a test because of something in Sweeney's locker. Once that got out, Bonds' statements on the matter include

I never got anything out of his locker. If he never tried to hang Sweeney out to dry, the. The statements be made to try to clean up the mess are astonishingly shortsided.

"I never mentioned his name to MLB OFFICIALS" was not stated because HE DID JUST THAT and can't refute the notion? (Why risk MORE perjury, lol)

"I never got anything out of his locker" neither repairs the situation or does ANYTHING to refute the notion that he juiced as much as a first shift Tropicana Plant veteran. "I never got anything out of his locker!". Fine Barry, we know you got plenty from OTHER PLACES already. Pardon us Barry, smart baseball fans - move on.

[StanTheMan]

It's also possible that Barry Bonds was the second shooter on the grassy knoll.

Actually, it isn't. Barry wasn't BORN YET.

His unfertilized egg would not have been tall enough to see over the picket fence atop the grassy knoll much less hold the weapon, load it, aim it, fire it etc. Not even Barry's microscopic unfertilized beginnings were powerful enough to achieve anything of substance.

[ol' aches and pains]

Actually, it isn't. Barry wasn't BORN YET.

His unfertilized egg would not have been tall enough to see over the picket fence atop the grassy knoll much less hold the weapon, load it, aim it, fire it etc. Not even Barry's microscopic unfertilized beginnings were powerful enough to achieve anything of substance.

Barry has already shown us that with steroids, anything is possible.

[Ubiquitous]

The blinders some wear are incredible.

Bonds told MLB officials he failed a test because of something in Sweeney's locker. Once that got out, Bonds' statements on the matter include

I never got anything out of his locker. If he never tried to hang Sweeney out to dry, the. The statements be made to try to clean up the mess are astonishingly shortsided.

"I never mentioned his name to MLB OFFICIALS" was not stated because HE DID JUST THAT and can't refute the notion? (Why risk MORE perjury, lol)

"I never got anything out of his locker" neither repairs the situation or does ANYTHING to refute the notion that he juiced as much as a first shift Tropicana Plant veteran. "I never got anything out of his locker!". Fine Barry, we know you got plenty from OTHER PLACES already. Pardon us Barry, smart baseball fans - move on.

It isn't blinders. Your version of the events might be true or they might not be. What we have is a report in which unnamed sources state that Bonds said X. Bonds then comes out and says that contrary to recent reports X never happened. Feel free to read into that however much you want.

[leewileyfan]

Barry has already shown us that with steroids, anything is possible.

Why settle for less? Be all that you can be!

[BondsOverBabe]

Is Bin Laden the greatest terrorist in history? Assuming among those who were doing it, no one esle was as great as he?


The push up illegality issue is not relative to the creams rising to the top (it does, anyone arguing differently is a fool) but rather pushups are a poor comparison to illegal PED's for many reasons. Effectiveness in increasing performance being tantamount.

The argument that some people benefited more from using PEDs than others and should be punished is just silly which is why I gave the equally silly argument of some people benefiting more from doing pushups. Point is Barry, A-Rod, Clemens etc were the best players whether everybody used steroids or no one did

[leewileyfan]

There is much righteous indignation expressed when Bonds and his accomplishments are debated. There is also much alleged as to who said or did what; to whom, when ... and then IF the alleged actually took place, going back to "sources" that seem to want invisibility the more heated the debate becomes.

There have been demands that those of us who allege that MLB, the owners and the powers-that-be on the business end of MLB were COMPLICIT in NOT curtailing 'roids abuses, MUST present evidence of such complicity. Here goes:

1. I selected franchise cities from both leagues. Of these, some were intimately involved with "'roids records" reaching a crescendo. Others were not directly involved, but are either geographically close ... ore are recognized as great baseball towns.

2. I use 1993 because it is the season that was prelude to the ugly strike. This is a kind of BEFORE picture. I have listed the franchises and their attendance on 1993.

3. What follows are the seasons when HR production mounted to over-the-rainbow numbers, with:

a. 1999 being McGwire-Sosa, Phase 1
b. 2000 being the ENCORE, McGwire-Sosa, Phase 2
c. 2001 being Barry Bonds and 73 HR

4. AFTER 2001, we could discuss the relative permanence or impermanence of the jolt to fan paid attendance after the strike. However, even a cursory glance at 1993 and THEN 1995 will show to any but the most locked-up of closed minds that MLB had begun to get mired in a quicksand pit. I needed a jolt. It got the jolt. The jolt made sounds: KA-CHING! and WHIRRRR [turnstiles].

Franchise and Attendance 93..........95.......96......97......98......99... ....00......01.......02.......03

New York [Yankees].........2.42.......1.71....2.25...2.58....2.96... .3.29....3.06....3.26....3.47.....3.47

Oakland.........................2.04........1.17.. .1.15....1.26...1.23....1.43.....1.60....2.13....2 .17....2.22

San Francisco.................2.61........1.24...1.41. ...1.69...1.93....2.08.....3.32....3.31....3.25... .3.26

Chicago [Cubs]...............2.65.........1.92...2.22....2.19... 2.62...2.81.....2.79.....2.78...1.68.....2.96

Atlanta..........................3.88.........2.56 ...2.90....3.46...3.36...3.28.....3.23.....2.82... 2.60.....2.40

Another question raised is why SFG allowed Barry's contract to expire [or, from whatever prospective - cut him loose]? Numbers suggest that too much eagerness to hang on to Barry and cherish his records might suggest COMPLICITY?

[StanTheMan]

It isn't blinders. Your version of the events might be true or they might not be. What we have is a report in which unnamed sources state that Bonds said X. Bonds then comes out and says that contrary to recent reports X never happened. Feel free to read into that however much you want.

While using logic. Will do. I mean..... already have.

[brett]

There is much righteous indignation expressed when Bonds and his accomplishments are debated. There is also much alleged as to who said or did what; to whom, when ... and then IF the alleged actually took place, going back to "sources" that seem to want invisibility the more heated the debate becomes.

There have been demands that those of us who allege that MLB, the owners and the powers-that-be on the business end of MLB were COMPLICIT in NOT curtailing 'roids abuses, MUST present evidence of such complicity. Here goes:

1. I selected franchise cities from both leagues. Of these, some were intimately involved with "'roids records" reaching a crescendo. Others were not directly involved, but are either geographically close ... ore are recognized as great baseball towns.

2. I use 1993 because it is the season that was prelude to the ugly strike. This is a kind of BEFORE picture. I have listed the franchises and their attendance on 1993.

3. What follows are the seasons when HR production mounted to over-the-rainbow numbers, with:

a. 1999 being McGwire-Sosa, Phase 1
b. 2000 being the ENCORE, McGwire-Sosa, Phase 2
c. 2001 being Barry Bonds and 73 HR

4. AFTER 2001, we could discuss the relative permanence or impermanence of the jolt to fan paid attendance after the strike. However, even a cursory glance at 1993 and THEN 1995 will show to any but the most locked-up of closed minds that MLB had begun to get mired in a quicksand pit. I needed a jolt. It got the jolt. The jolt made sounds: KA-CHING! and WHIRRRR [turnstiles].

Franchise and Attendance 93..........95.......96......97......98......99... ....00......01.......02.......03

New York [Yankees].........2.42.......1.71....2.25...2.58....2.96... .3.29....3.06....3.26....3.47.....3.47

Oakland.........................2.04........1.17.. .1.15....1.26...1.23....1.43.....1.60....2.13....2 .17....2.22

San Francisco.................2.61........1.24...1.41. ...1.69...1.93....2.08.....3.32....3.31....3.25... .3.26

Chicago [Cubs]...............2.65.........1.92...2.22....2.19... 2.62...2.81.....2.79.....2.78...1.68.....2.96

Atlanta..........................3.88.........2.56 ...2.90....3.46...3.36...3.28.....3.23.....2.82... 2.60.....2.40

Another question raised is why SFG allowed Barry's contract to expire [or, from whatever prospective - cut him loose]? Numbers suggest that too much eagerness to hang on to Barry and cherish his records might suggest COMPLICITY?

But offense started surging up in '93 and I think '96 was the overall offensive peak. We had seen several 50 home run seasons before '98-McGwire 2x and Griffey 2x. It is possible that offense shot up in '93 because of expansion and that it would have been on the way down by '98.

[Ubiquitous]

While using logic. Will do. I mean..... already have.

Clearly Ken Griffey Jr used steroids. It's the only logical assumption to make.

[leewileyfan]

But offense started surging up in '93 and I think '96 was the overall offensive peak. We had seen several 50 home run seasons before '98-McGwire 2x and Griffey 2x. It is possible that offense shot up in '93 because of expansion and that it would have been on the way down by '98.

True. However, I am addressing the Barry Bonds [as evil being] debate that has been going on, with all kinds of moral injections [and interjections] being tossed around at those of use inclined to give Barry a bit of a pass.

Not addressing the power surge, as such, the economics of MLB came to a supply-demand crisis during 1993-94. My point is: Guess what gave the game a shot in the arm and guess who jumped for joy as the turnstiles spun and the cash registers rang out, loud and clear.

[Without intending it, that is loaded with puns that seem appropriate.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

There is much righteous indignation expressed when Bonds and his accomplishments are debated. There is also much alleged as to who said or did what; to whom, when ... and then IF the alleged actually took place, going back to "sources" that seem to want invisibility the more heated the debate becomes.

There have been demands that those of us who allege that MLB, the owners and the powers-that-be on the business end of MLB were COMPLICIT in NOT curtailing 'roids abuses, MUST present evidence of such complicity. Here goes:

1. I selected franchise cities from both leagues. Of these, some were intimately involved with "'roids records" reaching a crescendo. Others were not directly involved, but are either geographically close ... ore are recognized as great baseball towns.

2. I use 1993 because it is the season that was prelude to the ugly strike. This is a kind of BEFORE picture. I have listed the franchises and their attendance on 1993.

3. What follows are the seasons when HR production mounted to over-the-rainbow numbers, with:

a. 1999 being McGwire-Sosa, Phase 1
b. 2000 being the ENCORE, McGwire-Sosa, Phase 2
c. 2001 being Barry Bonds and 73 HR

4. AFTER 2001, we could discuss the relative permanence or impermanence of the jolt to fan paid attendance after the strike. However, even a cursory glance at 1993 and THEN 1995 will show to any but the most locked-up of closed minds that MLB had begun to get mired in a quicksand pit. I needed a jolt. It got the jolt. The jolt made sounds: KA-CHING! and WHIRRRR [turnstiles].

Franchise and Attendance 93..........95.......96......97......98......99... ....00......01.......02.......03

New York [Yankees].........2.42.......1.71....2.25...2.58....2.96... .3.29....3.06....3.26....3.47.....3.47

Oakland.........................2.04........1.17.. .1.15....1.26...1.23....1.43.....1.60....2.13....2 .17....2.22

San Francisco.................2.61........1.24...1.41. ...1.69...1.93....2.08.....3.32....3.31....3.25... .3.26

Chicago [Cubs]...............2.65.........1.92...2.22....2.19... 2.62...2.81.....2.79.....2.78...1.68.....2.96

Atlanta..........................3.88.........2.56 ...2.90....3.46...3.36...3.28.....3.23.....2.82... 2.60.....2.40

Another question raised is why SFG allowed Barry's contract to expire [or, from whatever prospective - cut him loose]? Numbers suggest that too much eagerness to hang on to Barry and cherish his records might suggest COMPLICITY?

Bottom line, the user, not just Barry or Roger, any user is responsible for his actions. That makes it simple.

Don't blame it on MLB. I've said before,MLB should have had drug testing and penalties much earlier but that does not let users off the hook. You can add to that, you point the finger at MLB, what about the Players Union, they were "protecting" the players, thats what unions call it. Unions are good and bad, in this case they were bad.

Don Fehr and Gene Orza saw any form of drug testing as un-American, in that it forced players to "prove their innocence ". .

What happened here, I thought the Player's Union represented the players. Not long after the Ken Caminiti story broke, a poll appeared in the USA TODAY. In that poll 79 percent of the players were accepting of drug testing, the union did not care.
I won't get bogged down with the blame game, was it MLB, was it the Player's Union, was it both, stop the finger pointing, the blame rests on the shoulders of the user. Enough with the excuses for those that made the wrong choice.

[Ubiquitous]

Assigning portions of blame and guilt is not the same as making excuses. It is quite possible to have more than one person or group responsible for what happened. I'm not sure why saying MLB screwed up somehow equates to saying the players or player are/is completely innocent of any wrongdoing.

[brett]

True. However, I am addressing the Barry Bonds [as evil being] debate that has been going on, with all kinds of moral injections [and interjections] being tossed around at those of use inclined to give Barry a bit of a pass.

Not addressing the power surge, as such, the economics of MLB came to a supply-demand crisis during 1993-94. My point is: Guess what gave the game a shot in the arm and guess who jumped for joy as the turnstiles spun and the cash registers rang out, loud and clear.

[Without intending it, that is loaded with puns that seem appropriate.

If someone plays a competitive sport, and they have been the best, and then they see others get an advantage on them, and the league looks the other way, that is mitigating.

[Ubiquitous]

What happened here, I thought the Player's Union represented the players. Not long after the Ken Caminiti story broke, a poll appeared in the USA TODAY. In that poll [B]79 percent of the players were accepting of drug testing, the union did not care.

The devil is always in the details. You poll any amount of people and the vast majority of them will agree that we should help the homeless, that education is important, that war is bad, so on and so on but when it comes time to actually have to come up with a plan on helping the homeless and paying for it that is when suddenly that solid majority of yes voters dissipates significantly. It's very easy to get behind an abstract idea or message.

[Ubiquitous]

If someone plays a competitive sport, and they have been the best, and then they see others get an advantage on them, and the league looks the other way, that is mitigating.

In the 2002 USA Today poll that SJ mentioned above 44% of the 556 big leaguers polled felt pressure to use steroids.

[leewileyfan]

Bottom line, the user, not just Barry or Roger, any user is responsible for his actions. That makes it simple.

Don't blame it on MLB. I've said before,MLB should have had drug testing and penalties much earlier but that does not let users off the hook. You can add to that, you point the finger at MLB, what about the Players Union, they were "protecting" the players, thats what unions call it. Unions are good and bad, in this case they were bad.

Don Fehr and Gene Orza saw any form of drug testing as un-American, in that it forced players to "prove their innocence ". .

What happened here, I thought the Player's Union represented the players. Not long after the Ken Caminiti story broke, a poll appeared in the USA TODAY. In that poll 79 percent of the players were accepting of drug testing, the union did not care.
I won't get bogged down with the blame game, was it MLB, was it the Player's Union, was it both, stop the finger pointing, the blame rests on the shoulders of the user. Enough with the excuses for those that made the wrong choice.

I am not the one finger-pointing. You are conducting THAT symphony. All things considered, thanks: In you own words quoted above, you have made my point for me.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I am not the one finger-pointing. You are conducting THAT symphony. All things considered, thanks: In you own words quoted above, you have made my point for me.

WOW, haven't seen that old BS line.............I won't do the work, I'll just tell the other poster............you made my point for me.

But one more time, the guy that went to the needle...........it was him and no one else

[Ubiquitous]

The drug dealers will be relieved to hear that.

[leewileyfan]

WOW, haven't seen that old BS line.............I won't do the work, I'll just tell the other poster............you made my point for me.

But one more time, the guy that went to the needle...........it was him and no one else

But you HAVE made my point, in your own words [which I quoted, with nary a tweak]; so the BS to which you refer must be of the boomerang variety.

[Imapotato]

Bonds and his colleagues are forever tainted in my view with trying to get an easy fix...and the reason it was so easy is because of Free Agency giving way too much to the player and hurting owners when they tried to keep salaries at a reasonable level as to not raise ticket prices

You have a million dollar contract and want more...cheating no longer becomes about morality as it does about $$$ and the price you pay? You might get banished but not after a huge payoff...Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth didn't have that luxury, they were not making 500 times the median american salary...nope, not even Ruth could say that

So they got their multi millions at the cost of the legacy of the game that paid them, but they are laughing to the bank and nothing we say nor do will have any effect

For me...they do not come up in the greatest discussions...and if I had a vote for the HOF, I would NEVER vote for any of them

[Ubiquitous]

So the money corrupted the players but the owners are and have been uncorrupted?

The owners didn't raise ticket prices because of free agency.

[Los Bravos]

They also didn't try to limit salaries to avoid raising ticket prices,. They tried to limit salaries because they don't like paying fair value for what they receive. They never have and most of them never will and they went to insane lengths to avoid it.

[StanTheMan]

Clearly Ken Griffey Jr used steroids. It's the only logical assumption to make.

Ok, I'll reply. But make sure you hold the gun, aimed at your foot, when you reply.

WHY is is logical that Griffey Jr used? It certainly can't be HR numbers alone. You're wise enough to understand the fact that many players hit 50 hoime runs before steroids were INVENTED. So if it wasn't a HR humber alone, what LOGIC ARE YOU USING?

Awaiting your reply.