it didnt work.
it didnt work.
And this is the real reason why the contraption is useless. Pay attention to the time lapse between a hitter placing his foot down and the launch of his swing. It is very very very small. Yet, the contraption makes you put the foot down and wait for the ball. This is so far from the reality of a real swing.Originally Posted by tadlock11
And the significance of this is huge. A real hitter rotates into footplant when he swings. There is NO delay in a real swing. There is no delay in the hitters load/unload cycle. Yet this contraption teaches a delay.
This ranks second as the worst hitting tool I've seen. #1 is the Griffey Instructo Swing.
Here is a demonstration of why the HBH is worthless.....
These two clips are synced to toe touch. Notice the delay in the HBH usage. Notice how little time from foot plant to launch in the live hitter.
Last edited by Ohfor; 01-10-2006 at 07:36 AM.
The swing from a week later is no better than the swing from day one.Originally Posted by tadlock11
The delay will kill your son's ability to hit.
We need to be careful here. You are comparing what appears to be a college player or pro to a ten year old kid. As UM noted in an earlier note each of these devises have their limitations and purposes and are geard for a very specific use. I believe the Hands Back is made to teach seperation. Timing may be the next step.Originally Posted by Ohfor
Tadlock, when compared against other ten year olds, he does pretty well. There are certainly issues with his swings as there are with every ten year old I've ever seen. Teaching a good swing is a process not an event. Keep your chin up!
Ohfor - Providing both clips synced is a very valuable tool. You know what you have compared against what should be.
I like it!
I can see where too much of a delay would be bad. The spring tension is adjustable for quicker releases. Also in the comp pictures, would the player on the right have the same smooth swing if it were a changeup? Not that that particular pitch isn't, but for the most part on what I've observed, hitters are way out in front.
After my son used this for a few weeks, his hitting improved by leaps and bounds. We used this at practice with a tournament team as a station. The teams hitting improved (all but one or two players hit over .500) I haven't tried many hitting devices but this one worked for us.
The age difference has nothing to do with this issue. Put the college player against the hands back hitter and he has the same problem as the kid. He can not rotate into footplant. He can not properly load/unload his hips.Originally Posted by Jake Patterson
The hands back hitter is designed to promote just what it says. But, it really compromises ones ability to launch his swing properly.I believe the Hands Back is made to teach seperation. Timing may be the next step.
Timing is not what you see as you look at the difference between the two hitters. Timing is making your swing match the arrival of the pitch.
What you see in the clip is an illustration of a large compromise of swing quickness. You see a compromise in the load/unload of the hips. You see a compromise in intensity. You see a compromise in the ability to launch properly.
This is a HUGE issue and should not be overlooked.
So..........are you in this for the short term? Are you interested in teaching a kid something that will work as long as he's facing mediocre pitching? Are you interested in teaching something that may help him now but will compromise his ability to play at a high level?Originally Posted by tadlock11
If so........keep at it.
High level swings will not come out of the HBH.
How would you(Nyman) teach somebody to keep their weight back/hands back. This hitter you have shown appears to be hitting a fastball in where keeping your hands back doesn't apply.Originally Posted by Ohfor
I think what this little "tool" is teaching this kid to do is to "reach" with his front foot while keeping his weight centered(Bonds) and his head centered rather than lunging his whole body forward when he steps.
Now, do I like the delay in time between step and swing? Not necessarily, but I do know a kid in the big leagues that has got over 200 hits for the past 3 seasons that does it quite often..Michael Young
Last edited by hiddengem; 01-10-2006 at 10:09 AM.
Totally disagree. His hands are back when he STARTS THE SWING.....which is the issue. What he does to get to this pitch is a result of him having his hands back which allows the opportunity to get to this pitch.Originally Posted by hiddengem
But this is being sold to kids who have no clue about the difference between "hands back" and "launching properly" I'm quite sure, if you what you say is correct about Michael Young, that he knows the difference.I do know a kid in the big leagues that has got over 200 hits for the past 3 seasons that does it quite often..Michael Young
99.9% of all dads, youth coaches, and amateur players do not.
And while "hands back" is good, it is EASILY taught by more sound methods that don't compromise the launch. So easily taught it's almost a no teach.
i guess the question is...is the step a seperate movement from the swing?
I don't belive it should although many do it.Originally Posted by wogdoggy
Originally Posted by Ohfor
So, what would this kid do if he started his swing thinking it was a fastball, and then realized it was a change up? Just take that beautiful swing that you guys talk about and miss it by 3 feet?
to me it would seem detrimental to a smooth swing to step and wait for that ball to move up.
Many guys do it with 2 strikes. They do it so that there foot is down, they are loaded and then they just look for the ball. Less chance of being fooled or way out in front of something.Originally Posted by wogdoggy
The age difference has nothing to do with this issue. Put the college player against the hands back hitter and he has the same problem as the kid. He can not rotate into footplant. He can not properly load/unload his hips.
Damn we agree on another issue.
Many guys do it with 2 strikes. They do it so that there foot is down, they are loaded and then they just look for the ball. Less chance of being fooled or way out in front of something.
sounds like a 90 footer at best
it disrupts the flow.
BUT THEN AGAIN.no striders do it all the time,but then again the toe turn might be their trigger?
Ohfor, first for taking the time to match the two swings. It's a great help in illustrating your point, although I think much is lost when you draw too many conclusions from it. And, like everything from a gun to a car to the fence drill (remember THAT thread on hitting-mechanics.org?), it can be misused and overused by the ignorant. It's good to know that we're all the "one in a thousand" here who OhFor believes will know how to use it.
What is missed here is that for many hitters, there are two components to the "foot plant", although not for the big hitter on the right. For them, you first land on the inside of the big toe of the plant foot, keeping that heel up. Then, when the pitch is timed, they slam that heel down as they rotate. So, conceivably, these hitters could launch the ball by tapping the string with their toe, then doing the heel down/rotate when the ball reaches the right height. It seems that it would take some practice to hit the string with that small (big toe) surface area of your foot, but I guess it's doable.
And, as seems to be universally agreed by everyone but OhFor, there are going to be times you do a full foot plant but have to delay your swing because you've been fooled by the speed. We sometimes see too much in clips of perfect swings and forget that most of our swings require adjustments to the speed and location of pitches. I'd like to see the other ten or so swings that lefty batter in OhFor's clip took in that game.
As noted above, I have problems with the device that others have articulated quite well. I don't like the eye path that it forces the batter to take; it's completely antithetical to following a real pitch.
I don't dispute that OhFor is right about the ultimate dangers that steady use of the device might create, but if it gives a cue that solves a basic problem with younger kids and if coaches supplement it with other instruction and stop its use at the appropriate time, it's not going to ruin a kid's swing. And most importantly here, this kid seems to have more confidence in his swing (and much better bat angle, which probably is more of the cause of the good swing than the trainer is). In 9-10 year old ball, that swing will get a lot of balls to the outfield, which is all you want.
Where's there's an implicit message in OhFor's post that bears discussion is this: coaches may sometimes confuse a quick fix and let kids use bad technique because the kids get a short term lurch in batting average. The converse of that is coaches (or parents) who are reluctant to move their kids up to the next level of technique because it causes a short term decrease in results as the kid adjusts.
So, my advice would be to largely keep that puppy away from kids who either (a) don't use a two-step foot plant as described above, or (b) already are able to keep their hands back and don't need the help. But, if the kids treat it as a magic pill that gets their mojo working, well, maybe let 'em use it a little under close supervision.
First of all, if he's starting his swing before he realizes the pitch, he's not going to play very long anyway. He'll get eaten up early in the food chain. Not to say it doesn't happen. But, it doesn't happen that often with good hitters.Originally Posted by hiddengem
Secondly, what you're really missing is how quick the swing is from launch to contact. Roughly .2 of a second. And the point is, when your swing is quick enough you can wait long enough. If it isn't quick enough, you have to start early and it's those people who won't be playing very long. Quicker swing means longer wait which means better read which means better results.
The quickness you see out of this live hitter gives him the opportunity to make last second adjustments with his hands to get to a pitch. Actually with his arms. His arms will hold the hands in or let them out a little as needed. But the first adjustor used is the posture. Very good hitters make the majority of their adjustments with posture......not their arms or hands.
Very poor hitting technique. There is no "loaded" so they can wait for the ball. There is only loading and unloading. To load, stop and wait is exactly what the HBH forces you to do. And it will kill your ability to hit.Originally Posted by hiddengem
This is exactly right. Age is no issue in this discussion.Originally Posted by wogdoggy