View Poll Results: Who do you think is the best 19th century player?

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  • Cap Anson

    36 39.13%
  • King Kelly

    11 11.96%
  • Buck Ewing

    6 6.52%
  • Sam Thompson

    1 1.09%
  • Ed Delahanty

    11 11.96%
  • George Gore

    0 0%
  • Mike Donlin

    0 0%
  • Charlie Bennett

    0 0%
  • Ross Barnes

    2 2.17%
  • George Wright

    0 0%
  • Roger Connor

    1 1.09%
  • John McGraw

    3 3.26%
  • Billy Hamilton

    2 2.17%
  • Willie Keeler

    2 2.17%
  • Hughie Jennings

    0 0%
  • Bid McPhee

    0 0%
  • Herman Long

    0 0%
  • Bill Dahlen

    1 1.09%
  • Jesse Burkett

    0 0%
  • Paul Hines

    0 0%
  • Joe Start

    0 0%
  • George Van Haltren

    0 0%
  • Bob Caruthers

    0 0%
  • Hugh Duffy

    1 1.09%
  • Other

    5 5.43%
  • Dan Brouthers

    10 10.87%
  • Bill Lange

    0 0%
  • Pete Browning

    0 0%
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Results 126 to 150 of 165

Thread: Your Top 10 19th Century Players:

  1. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net View Post
    Thanks so much, Chris. So we are to understand that all SB totals prior to 1898 contained "Taking Extra Bases". Makes quite a difference in evaluating Billy Hamilton, Bill Lange, etc. Changes things. Thanks. I was meaning to ask about that so long ago, but it kept getting sidetracked.

    Does anyone have any information that SB before 1898 were ever NOT including 'taking extra bases'?

    Bill

    Bill, I read a long time ago that stolen bases included many types of extra bases, such as taking extra bases in certain situations, but I was not under the impression that every time, or most times a player went from first to third on a single he got a steal. It had to be out of the ordinary.

    In fact this is pretty obvious because if they gave it all the time, everyone would have 30-40 "steals" on record.

    I have rated Hamilton lower as a result. Since the best baserunners today tend to take about 20-25 "less likely" bases a season, I would guess that someone like Hamilton would probably be picking up 20-25 "steals" this way per season. It could be more because they ran more.

  2. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net View Post
    1898
    .A stolen base is credited to the base runner when he reaches a base he attempts to steal without the aid of batting or fielding errors or a hit by the batter. [10.08]
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Wait a minute. This does not include Taking Extra Bases on someone else's hit.
    Yes, this change was made in 1898

  3. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzaldrin View Post
    If you look, actually, you'll find that there was a bigger change in steal totals when they moved the mound back then there was when they created the modern rule. Makes sense, I guess- if the mound's ten feet closer to home, it's further away from the bases.
    I think you are saying that it is harder to hold runner's on first when you are pitching from 50 feet?

  4. #129

    Bill Lange

    Quote Originally Posted by 538280 View Post
    Who do you think the best 19th century player is? I'd say King Kelly. He was a great fielder, a great hitter, and he could play any position. This poll is only about position players. Even though many of the players in the poll were also good pitchers, that doesn't count for this poll.

    The question for this poll is like this: The year is 1900, and you have access to all modern stats. You are making a list of 20 greatest players. Who do you rank #1?

    If you voted other in the poll, be sure to tell us who you think is the best.
    Bill Lange's ML stats:
    CHC 1893-1899
    811 Games
    3195 AB
    689 R
    1055 H
    133 2B
    79 3B
    40 HR
    578 RBI
    399 SB
    .330 BA

  5. #130
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    Althought Anson is part of the reason blacks were banned from the "organized baseball", in my mind no one should dispute he is still the best ballplayer the 19th century had to offer.

    He started in the National Association as a teenager, he had a very long, very succesfull carrer, led one of the most productive and powerful team in history for decades, first to hit 3000 hits, was a hell of a run producer...

    If longevity means anything, he's the best of the pre-1900's era.

  6. #131
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    Would anyone else care to offer their Top 15 Nineteenth Century Players list?

  7. #132
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    Career value, I don't mix position players ...
    Anson
    Connor
    Ed Delahanty
    Burkett (if he counts)
    Brouthers
    Hamilton
    Van Haltren
    McPhee
    O'Rourke
    Beckley (if he counts)
    King Kelly

    ... and pitchers
    Nichols
    Keefe
    Clarkson
    Rusie
    Radbourn
    Jim McCormick
    Mullane
    Galvin
    Spalding should maybe go in there somewhere but he is too unique
    I can't wait to see who I forgot
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    Career value, I don't mix position players ...
    Anson
    Connor
    Ed Delahanty
    Burkett (if he counts)
    Brouthers
    Hamilton
    Van Haltren
    McPhee
    O'Rourke
    Beckley (if he counts)
    King Kelly

    ... and pitchers
    Nichols
    Keefe
    Clarkson
    Rusie
    Radbourn
    Jim McCormick
    Mullane
    Galvin
    Spalding should maybe go in there somewhere but he is too unique
    I can't wait to see who I forgot
    Hope they're in order. What? No Buck Ewing? I'm quite sad.

  9. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burgess View Post
    Would anyone else care to offer their Top 15 Nineteenth Century Players list?
    This is a loose ranking:

    Players:

    Dan Brouthers
    Cap Anson
    Roger Connor
    Jesse Burkett
    Buck Ewing
    John Ward
    Ross Barnes
    Bid McPhee
    Paul Hines
    Jim O'Rourke
    Charlie Bennett
    King Kelly
    Joe Start
    Ezra Sutton
    Jack Glasscock

    Pitchers:

    Amos Rusie
    Kid Nichols
    Charlie Radbourne
    Tim Keefe
    John Clarkson
    Tommy Bond
    Bob Caruthers
    Al Spalding
    Larry Corcoran
    Jim McCormick
    Tony Mullane
    Pud Galvin
    George Zettlein
    Silver King
    Mickey Welch

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burgess View Post
    Hope they're in order. What? No Buck Ewing? I'm quite sad.
    They're in order, and your boy Ewing needs more PT
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  11. #136

    Sincere Thanks

    Baseball prior to 1900...magnificent, romantic, poetic... and at the same time... savage, brutal, beautiful. Anson, Kelly, McGraw and the rest...

    Thanks to you all for keeping the game and its players alive and vital.

    -Chris

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    They're in order, and your boy Ewing needs more PT
    You could at least platoon him, couldn't you. He was able to be plugged into multiple positions.

  13. #138
    Dear Bill and Friends:

    I realize he was no earth-shattering hurler, and the development of the curveball would have come about sooner or later, but how does "Candy"
    Cummings rate among you exberts?

    Regards,

    Chris

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Jones View Post
    I realize he was no earth-shattering hurler, and the development of the curve ball would have come about sooner or later, but how does "Candy"
    Cummings rate among you experts?
    I don't rank him. He was just a pioneer.

  15. #140
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    Has there ever been a top 19C list series of threads, by position?
    "What is not discussed, will not be advanced." -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
    "They didn't call amphetamines 'ability pills' because they allowed you to re-roll your AD&D character sheet." -- Dan Szymborski

  16. #141
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    1. Dan Brouthers
    2. Cap Anson
    3. Ed Delahanty
    4. Buck Ewing
    5. Billy Hamilton
    6. Roger Connor
    7. Jesse Burkett
    8. Jake Beckley
    9. Bid McPhee
    10. King Kelly
    11. Jim O'Rourke
    12. Ross Barnes
    13. Joe Start
    14. Sam Thompson
    15. Willie Keeler
    Last edited by bluesky5; 04-04-2012 at 08:26 AM.
    "I go all out, and I'm going to bring that to the table everyday. In good times and in bad times." - Eric Byrnes
    "As long as I have fun playing, the stats will take care of themselves." - Ken Griffey Jr.

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Harris View Post
    Has there ever been a top 19C list series of threads, by position?
    I do my annual "greatest player by position" in the history forum. I wouldn't mind doing one exclusively for 19th century.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    I do my annual "greatest player by position" in the history forum. I wouldn't mind doing one exclusively for 19th century.
    I'd do it. You'd probably have to wait longer for tangible results each round.
    "I go all out, and I'm going to bring that to the table everyday. In good times and in bad times." - Eric Byrnes
    "As long as I have fun playing, the stats will take care of themselves." - Ken Griffey Jr.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    1. Cap Anson
    2. Ed Delahanty
    3. Buck Ewing
    5. Billy Hamilton
    6. Roger Connor
    7. Dan Brouthers
    8. Jesse Burkett
    9. Jimmy Collins
    10. Bid McPhee
    11. King Kelly
    12. Jim O'Rourke
    13. Ross Barnes
    14. Joe Start
    15. Sam Thompson
    Just nit-picking, but I absolutely fail to see how Roger Connor can possibly be called a better player than Dan Brouthers.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzaldrin View Post
    Just nit-picking, but I absolutely fail to see how Roger Connor can possibly be called a better player than Dan Brouthers.
    Maybe defense? I have enough issues rating guys on defense. When it comes to 19c players, forget it.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzaldrin View Post
    Just nit-picking, but I absolutely fail to see how Roger Connor can possibly be called a better player than Dan Brouthers.
    Defense. Based mostly on the fact that Connor payed 3B as well. It may not be the best way to evaluate it, but it's an inference I made. If you have any information that eludes to Brouthers being better I'd be happy to hear it. I love 19th c. ball and don't hear enough.
    "I go all out, and I'm going to bring that to the table everyday. In good times and in bad times." - Eric Byrnes
    "As long as I have fun playing, the stats will take care of themselves." - Ken Griffey Jr.

  22. #147
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    From what I gather, both Connor and Brouthers played old school first base, i.e., standing on the bag and being a big target for throws. Charlie Comiskey (and I suppose others but haven't heard who they may be) pioneered the more modern style of play playing off the bag. Connor's bio at SABR says "over time he also developed into an adept-fielding first baseman". Okay. I don't read anything about Brouthers being specially great in the field, but I also don't find anything about him being any sort of liability either, and Connor's possible advantage in the field just can't be enough to overcome the massive difference in batting between the two- and it is massive.

    Brouthers is the 19th c leader in OPS+ and is 8th all time. In 13 full seasons he led the league in OPS+ 8 times, batting five times (in three different leagues), OBP five times, and slugging seven times. He achieved the very cool feat of leading the league in slugging every year from 1881-1886, then changing tack and leading the league in offensive WAR every year from 1887-1892. His lifetime .342 is 9th lifetime, and unlike other old time stars such as Delahanty or Hamilton, he didn't achieve that by running up loads of big years in the hitter friendly 1890s, but rather in the dead ball 1880s. He did all of this playing in the same leagues as Connor, who, good as he was, doesn't come remotely close to Brouthers' feats with the bat.

    Don't get me wrong, Connor was a great hitter, no question, a sure fire hall of famer justly celebrated for both his longevity and his power skills- but there is, again, a large difference in their htting abilities. And even as to power- Brouthers had 1,000 fewer career at bats than Connor, but he still hit more doubles, and in both homers and triple per at bat they're vitually identical (Brouthers has a slight edge in triples/AB, Connor in homers/AB, but when I say slight, I mean it's basically a wash). That's one thing we forget about Connor- he may have been the 19th c homerun king in absolute terms, but there were several players who out homered him per at bat (in that respect Sam Thompson is ther clear 19th c home run king).

    I suppose it's a similar argument (on a different scale) to Ruth/Aaron. Aaron was a great player, a great hitter, with amazing longevity and he hit more homeruns than Ruth. But he wasn't as good as Babe Ruth (and yes, I know that you can make cases with them for different leagues, integration, etc., but just assume for the sake of argument that they played in the same leagues at the same time against the same pitching).

    Roger Connor was a great hitter; Dan Brouthers was one of the best hitters of all time. That, I believe, more than compensates for any small defensive differences between the two.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzaldrin View Post
    From what I gather, both Connor and Brouthers played old school first base, i.e., standing on the bag and being a big target for throws. Charlie Comiskey (and I suppose others but haven't heard who they may be) pioneered the more modern style of play playing off the bag. Connor's bio at SABR says "over time he also developed into an adept-fielding first baseman". Okay. I don't read anything about Brouthers being specially great in the field, but I also don't find anything about him being any sort of liability either, and Connor's possible advantage in the field just can't be enough to overcome the massive difference in batting between the two- and it is massive.

    Brouthers is the 19th c leader in OPS+ and is 8th all time. In 13 full seasons he led the league in OPS+ 8 times, batting five times (in three different leagues), OBP five times, and slugging seven times. He achieved the very cool feat of leading the league in slugging every year from 1881-1886, then changing tack and leading the league in offensive WAR every year from 1887-1892. His lifetime .342 is 9th lifetime, and unlike other old time stars such as Delahanty or Hamilton, he didn't achieve that by running up loads of big years in the hitter friendly 1890s, but rather in the dead ball 1880s. He did all of this playing in the same leagues as Connor, who, good as he was, doesn't come remotely close to Brouthers' feats with the bat.

    Don't get me wrong, Connor was a great hitter, no question, a sure fire hall of famer justly celebrated for both his longevity and his power skills- but there is, again, a large difference in their htting abilities. And even as to power- Brouthers had 1,000 fewer career at bats than Connor, but he still hit more doubles, and in both homers and triple per at bat they're vitually identical (Brouthers has a slight edge in triples/AB, Connor in homers/AB, but when I say slight, I mean it's basically a wash). That's one thing we forget about Connor- he may have been the 19th c homerun king in absolute terms, but there were several players who out homered him per at bat (in that respect Sam Thompson is ther clear 19th c home run king).

    I suppose it's a similar argument (on a different scale) to Ruth/Aaron. Aaron was a great player, a great hitter, with amazing longevity and he hit more homeruns than Ruth. But he wasn't as good as Babe Ruth (and yes, I know that you can make cases with them for different leagues, integration, etc., but just assume for the sake of argument that they played in the same leagues at the same time against the same pitching).

    Roger Connor was a great hitter; Dan Brouthers was one of the best hitters of all time. That, I believe, more than compensates for any small defensive differences between the two.
    You have me convinced.
    "I go all out, and I'm going to bring that to the table everyday. In good times and in bad times." - Eric Byrnes
    "As long as I have fun playing, the stats will take care of themselves." - Ken Griffey Jr.

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Jones View Post
    Baseball prior to 1900...magnificent, romantic, poetic... and at the same time... savage, brutal, beautiful. Anson, Kelly, McGraw and the rest...

    Thanks to you all for keeping the game and its players alive and vital.

    -Chris
    Well put and seconded!
    "I go all out, and I'm going to bring that to the table everyday. In good times and in bad times." - Eric Byrnes
    "As long as I have fun playing, the stats will take care of themselves." - Ken Griffey Jr.

  25. #150
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    1. Dan Brouthers
    2. Ed Delahanty
    3. Cap Anson
    4. Roger Connor
    5. Billy Hamilton
    6. Jesse Burkett
    7. Willie Keeler
    8. Buck Ewing
    9. Pete Browning
    10. Sam Thompson
    11. King Kelly
    12. Paul Hines
    13. John McGraw
    14. Bill Dahlen
    15. Goerge Van Haltren
    16. Harry Stovey
    17. Hugh Duffy
    18. Jimmy Ryan
    19. Bid McPhee
    20. Ross Barnes
    "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

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