Sutter

[cavalier1968]

Contgrats to Sutter........Mastered perhaps the most devestating pitch in the last 30 years....splitter......DOes this open the door for ....

Wagner Era 2.40.....284 saves?
Hoffman Era 2.76....436 saves?

Cavalier

[Bench 5]

Cavalier,

All I can say is that if you ever saw Bruce Sutter pitch in 1977 your jaw would drop. After 1977, Sutter's split-fingered fastball was still a great pitch and he enjoyed a nice career. But in 1977 when he first came up with the pitch, the ball literally dropped off the table. It dropped about 3 feet. After that year it would only drop maybe 2 feet. The difference from 77 to 78 was noticeable. He was nearly unhittable in 1977.

I am happy for Sutter but also happy for me. I have his autograph on 3 car brochures circa 1979 along with Dave Kingman and Rick Rueschel. I am not planning on selling it but that probably went up a little after today.

[Yankee Legend]

Wagner Era 2.40.....284 saves?
Hoffman Era 2.76....436 saves?

Cavalier

Aren't you forgetting someone???

This is who will be on that podium in 2014: MA-RI-A-NO

[Captain Cold Nose]

Aren't you forgetting someone???

This is who will be on that podium in 2014: MA-RI-A-NO

Rivera will get in. No one is forgeting him. But, the question is, with Sutter getting elected this year and Gossage very probably by 2008, would the two cavalier mentioned also get in.

[Mattingly]

Rivera will get in. No one is forgeting him. But, the question is, with Sutter getting elected this year and Gossage very probably by 2008, would the two cavalier mentioned also get in.

If Gossage has a hard time getting in, I'm considering that Rivera may also. Many Yankee fans have theories about this, especially with Gossage. Anyway, very few closers other than Wilhelm and Fingers were ever enshrined anyway.

I've never done a Gossage-to-Sutter stat check, but I'm presuming they're similar pitchers.

Sutter's baseball-reference page was updated already: http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/suttebr01.shtml (see above "Pitching")

[Captain Cold Nose]

If Gossage has a hard time getting in, I'm considering that Rivera may also. Many Yankee fans have theories about this, especially with Gossage. Anyway, very few closers other than Wilhelm and Fingers were ever enshrined anyway.

I've never done a Gossage-to-Sutter stat check, but I'm presuming they're similar pitchers.

Sutter's baseball-reference page was updated already: http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/suttebr01.shtml (see above "Pitching")

They're pretty similar. Gossage had the longer career. He won't be on the ballot for 13 years like Sutter. That's the logical thinking, but, as we all know . . .
Or, maybe we all don't . . .

[Mattingly]

They're pretty similar. Gossage had the longer career. He won't be on the ballot for 13 years like Sutter. That's the logical thinking, but, as we all know . . .
Or, maybe we all don't . . .

I still say that Rivera will get shafted for more years than necessary, like Goose.

Look at all these sportswriters who don't like the Yanks and George. Those are the same folks who'll be voting in a Yankee, or not voting him in. Just my feeling.

Anyway, congrats to Bruce, and may Goose, Bert and others follow in your footsteps!

[DoubleX]

I still say that Rivera will get shafted for more years than necessary, like Goose.

Look at all these sportswriters who don't like the Yanks and George. Those are the same folks who'll be voting in a Yankee, or not voting him in. Just my feeling.

Anyway, congrats to Bruce, and may Goose, Bert and others follow in your footsteps!

I think it depends who Rivera is up against on that first ballot. If he's going against some clear first-ballot position players or starting pitchers, he may have to wait a year or two. I call this the Carlton Fisk syndrome. Fisk would surely have been a first-timer if he was not up against George Brett, Robin Yount, and Nolan Ryan. Either way, I expect Rivera will make the Hall of Fame. He's just been too dominant, too high profile, too successful, and too hyped, to not make it within the first few years on the ballot.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I think it depends who Rivera is up against on that first ballot. If he's going against some clear first-ballot position players or starting pitchers, he may have to wait a year or two. I call this the Carlton Fisk syndrome. Fisk would surely have been a first-timer if he was not up against George Brett, Robin Yount, and Nolan Ryan. Either way, I expect Rivera will make the Hall of Fame. He's just been too dominant, too high profile, too successful, and too hyped, to not make it within the first few years on the ballot.

But what about Hoffman and Wagner? You know, the guys mentioned in the initial post.

[Chisox]

But what about Hoffman and Wagner? You know, the guys mentioned in the initial post.

Hoffman's in mine solidly, Wagner's the least deserving actually in mine.
I've got Hoffman nearly equal to Rivera, but because of the lack of post-season accomplishments and in San Diego, he'll probably have to wait a few years if ever getting in. I highly doubt Wagner will make it.

[RuthMayBond]

They're pretty similar. Gossage had the longer career.

Gossage had 767 more IP,
or more than the career of Wetteland, Nen and almost as many more as Eck, and Rivera so far

[KCGHOST]

To put Sutter in ahead of Gossage is simply wrong. There is no way to look at the careers of these guys and give the nod to Sutter.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Gossage had 767 more IP,
or more than the career of Wetteland, Nen and almost as many more as Eck, and Rivera so far

And yet he only saved 10 more games, which those not steeped in statistical analysis will look to first for relievers, then go from there. If Gossage was such a great closer, the question will come, why didn't he close more?
Longevity does not necessarily make someone a better candidate, (hello, Tommy John) it's what they do while they do it at their best. In terms of that, there isn't that much difference.
In one sense, Gossage will get in before Sutter. 9 years on the ballot as opposed to 13.

[RuthMayBond]

And yet he only saved 10 more games, which those not steeped in statistical analysis will look to first for relievers, then go from there. If Gossage was such a great closer, the question will come, why didn't he close more?

Is it possible Gossage's teams didn't have as many late tenuous leads as Sutter's, or Sutter's teams had fewer relievers, ..?

<Longevity does not necessarily make someone a better candidate, (hello, Tommy John) it's what they do while they do it at their best.>

Hello, Mr. Koufax

[Captain Cold Nose]

Is it possible Gossage's teams didn't have as many late tenuous leads as Sutter's, or Sutter's teams had fewer relievers, ..?

<Longevity does not necessarily make someone a better candidate, (hello, Tommy John) it's what they do while they do it at their best.>

Hello, Mr. Koufax

He is in, isn't he?

[RuthMayBond]

He is in, isn't he?

So are Haines, GKelly, JEvers, Lindstrom, TJackson, Hafey, LWaner, and TMcCarthy.

Blyleven, Allen, Grich, Darrell Evans, Dahlen, SMagee, JWynn, and DwEvans are not. Pick your team

[Captain Cold Nose]

So are Haines, GKelly, JEvers, Lindstrom, TJackson, Hafey, LWaner, and TMcCarthy.

Blyleven, Allen, Grich, Darrell Evans, Dahlen, Raines, JWynn, and DwEvans are not. Pick your team

The committee (not the writers, btw) that selected the players you mentioned haven't even looked at the players on your second list, And, again, Raines is not even eligible yet. No one has had a chance to vote on him, so his inclusion is erroneous.

[Brad Harris]

Well, the BBWAA has finally established a minimum standard for Hall-worthy relievers. Essentially, we're looking at anyone better than Dan Quisenberry. Great news for Rivera, Hoffman, Wagner, etc.

[The Commissioner]

Contgrats to Sutter........Mastered perhaps the most devestating pitch in the last 30 years....splitter......DOes this open the door for ....

Wagner Era 2.40.....284 saves?
Hoffman Era 2.76....436 saves?

Cavalier

Something that a lot of people been forgetting about regarding Sutter and this, is exactly just how devastating that pitch was at first. What has now come to be known as the "split-fingered fastball" was at the time referred to by many as the "Bruce Sutter pitch". No, he didn't invent it, but he was so dominating with it that his name became instantly synonymous with it.

[Brad Harris]

Something that a lot of people been forgetting about regarding Sutter and this, is exactly just how devastating that pitch was at first. What has now come to be known as the "split-fingered fastball" was at the time referred to by many as the "Bruce Sutter pitch". No, he didn't invent it, but he was so dominating with it that his name became instantly synonymous with it.

Hence, in my mind, the difference-maker between Sutter and Dan Quisenberry.

[RuthMayBond]

Something that a lot of people been forgetting about regarding Sutter and this, is exactly just how devastating that pitch was at first. What has now come to be known as the "split-fingered fastball" was at the time referred to by many as the "Bruce Sutter pitch". No, he didn't invent it, but he was so dominating with it that his name became instantly synonymous with it.

He shouldn't be getting credit for it if he didn't invent it. But his ERA+ is still TEN POINTS below Quiz