Your 19th Century All-Time, All-Star Team

[The Kid]

My All Time 19th Century Team:

C:
Buck Ewing, King Kelly

1B:
Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, Roger Connors

2B:
Ross Barnes, Bid McPhee

3B:
Jimmy Collins, John McGraw

SS
Hughie Jennings, George Davis

OF
Willie Keeler, Ed Delehanty, Billy Hamilton, Jesse Burkett

Pitchers:
Cy Young, Kid Nichols, Pud Galvin, Al Spalding, Tim Keefe, Jim Whitney, Amos Russie, Clark Griffith, Monte Ward, Ed Morris

Honorable Mentions:

1B Charles Comiskey, SS Herman Long, OF Dummy Hoy, 3B Deacon White, OF Pete Browning, OF Sam Thompson, OF Jim O'Rourke.

My 19th Century All Star Team in today's present form of 32 all-stars if the Honorable Mentions are counted.

[achester99]

Boy was I excited to find this! I love wasting my time on stuff like this and I've already made my all-time Team of the Decade for each decade of baseball. For the 19th century I decided to just make one team, which fits right in with what you guys are doing! So here is my team.

Note: I ONLY used data for games played between 1871-1899. Anything done from 1900 onward has no impact. (Also, teams listed are for the player's primary team during the 19th century; red denotes HOF.)

Lineup:
1. Billy Hamilton, CF, Philadelphia Phillies.
860 SB and a .349 AVG.
2. Hughie Jennings, SS, Baltimore Orioles.
.323 AVG and 820 runs in his first eight seasons.
3. Dan Brouthers, 1B, Buffalo Bisons.
.344 AVG, .944 OPS, 106 HR, he's the third most valuable hitter of the century after Thompson and Cap.
4. Sam Thompson, RF, Philadelphia Phillies.
127 HR (second most of the century), .331 AVG.
5. Hugh Duffy, LF, Boston Beaneaters.
Actually spent more time at CF, 102 HR, 548 SB, .326 AVG
6. George Davis, 3B, New York Giants.
.313 AVG, one of only two HOF third basemen from the era.
7. Buck Ewing, C, New York Giants.
Leads catchers in RBI (883), R (1129), SB (354), AVG (.303), OPS (.807).
8. Bid McPhee, 2B, Cincinnati Reds.
The only HOF 2B, he leads in RBI (1067), R (1678), and SB (568), even if his rates aren't as good as Cupid Childs' (who only played ten years).

Bench:
Ed Delahanty, OF, Philadelphia Phillies. .345 AVG and .915 OPS.
Roger Connor, 1B, New York Giants. Century-leading 138 HR and a .317 AVG.
Cap Anson, 1B, Chicago Cubs. His incredibly long career means he leads in nearly all stats, including R (1996) and RBI (2076), along with a .333 AVG.
Joe Kelley, OF, Baltimore Orioles. .340 AVG and .925 OPS.
Bill Joyce, 3B, New York Giants. A short career keeps him out of the HOF, but in only seven years he pounded 70 HR and had a position-best .902 OPS.
King Kelley, OF/C, Chicago Cubs. He is behind a few others in the outfield, including George Van Haltre, Jesse Burkett, and Jimmy Ryan, but we need a backup catcher and his numbers are better than any other, including a .308 AVG and 368 steals in only seven seasons in which the stat was kept.

Pitchers
Tim Keefe, New York Giants
John Clarkson, Boston Braves
Charley Radbourn, Providence Grays
Kid Nichols, Boston Braves
Al Spalding, Boston Braves. He can also play CF or 1B, having averaged 55 RBI and 70 R a season to go with his .313 AVG.
Cy Young, Cleveland Spiders
John Ward, New York Giants. Ward actually played more games at shortstop and second than as a pitcher, which means he is also this team's backup middle infielder, for which he is qualified with 1408 runs, 867 RBI, and 540 steals (a stat which wasn't even kept for almost half his career!).
Pud Galvin, Buffalo Bisons. Galvin was a workhorse, leading baseball in wins and losses during the century because of 14 full seasons of work.
Amos Rusie, New York Giants
Jim McCormick, Cleveland Spiders
Bob Caruthers, St. Louis Cardinals. I give Caruthers the last spot on the team over other qualified pitchers because of his versatility. As an outfielder he scored over 500 runs, over 150 steals, and an OPS of almost .800.

[HDH]

Just think, all these pitchers are submarine and side armed hurlers.

[Second Base Coach]

Here are some early players of note, keeping with the spirit of a 40 man roster (plus Cap Anson to run the team) and avoiding some players who had careers which spilled over into the 20th Century to a large degree like Larry Lajoie. I have no rule or cutoff for this, so my squad may not be consistent from player to player on the cutoff. (and I am aware some of these players played more than one position, and some even caught a game or two). I will try to keep it at three or four players around each infield position. I know the best outfielder I leave off proably could out-hit the infielder listed, but here is my list anyway without looking up tooooo many stats:

Infielders:

Catchers:
Buck Ewing
Fred Carroll
Jack Clements
Charlie Bennett
Deacon McGuire

First Basemen:
Dan Brouthers
Roger Connor
Cap Anson

Second Basemen:
Cupid Childs
Fred Dunlap
Hardy Richardson
Bid McPhee

Third Basemen:
Bill Joyce
John McGraw
Denny Lyons
Deacon White

Shortstop:
George Davis
Jack Glasscock
Hughie Jennings
Bill Dahlen

Outfield:
Billy Hamilton
Ed Delahanty
King Kelly
Pete Browning
Sam Thompson
Mike Tiernan
Jim O'Rourke
George Gore
Jesse Burkett
Willie Keeler
Joe Kelley
Bill Lange

Pitchers:
Kid Nichols
Cy Young
John Clarkson
Amos Rusie
Tim Keefe
Old Hoss Radbourn
Tony Mullane
Mickey Welch
Pud Galvin

[BillOK]

I'm new to this so I may be a bit late on this subject, but I just love stuff like this.

Catcher: King Kelly ~ Just about the greatest utility player ever, his errors & passed balls are troubling, but he had the quickest of wits and would no doubt be a huge advantage to any pitcher.

1st Base: Dan Brouthers ~ The best hitter of the era, hands down.

2nd Base: Ross Barnes ~ I know this guy will raise a few eyebrows, but look at what we have. A league dominate hitter for average, power, and getting on base via the walk ( small #'s due to 9 balls needed to walk ). Played a difficult position to perfection, with range and sure handedness. Great base stealer and very fast. Also could play short or third as well as anyone. Truely this is the ultimate all-around player. As far as the competition, he out hit every one,Anson was great but not as good. Had he not been permanently weakened by his illness of 1877, he would have been the 1st player to 3000 hits. The fair-foul hit? Please, it just showed how great is bat control was, and he could hit without it. The guy is Wagner with a better eye at the plate!

3rd Base: John McGraw ~ Had a short career, but was an on-base machine, fast and skilled on the bases, played a high average 3rd base or a little better. Anyway, having a guy who was maybe the best baseball mind ever on your team can't hurt either.

Shortstop: Hugh Jennings ~ A teammate of McGraw and another player with a short but peaked career, for the time he was at his best he was the best fielder out there, who could hit for average and get on base with an amazing skill for being plunked, could run and steal, and was a smart baseball man himself.

Leftfield: Ed Delehanty ~ Underated all-around player, Ed had no weaknesses and a ton of strengths.

Centerfield: Billy Hamilton ~ The best leadoff man ever ( sorry Ricky ), vastly underated due to his quite nature. He didn't hit for power or have a good arm, but what he had as awesome.

Rightfield: Sam Thompson ~ Making it a sweep for the Phils in the 1890's, Big Sam was a great power/average hitter who played a fine right with a cannon for an arm. Figured out long after his death, he was the best RBI man ever!

Righthanded Starter: Tim Keefe ~ A workhorse with a eye for winning.

Second Starter: Bob Caruthers ~ I would have picked a lefty here but they were few in this era. Bob was a small man ( even back then ), but could pitch,hit, field, & run. Take a look at how winning seems to follow him through his career, it's not just luck.

Utility Man/ Pinch hitter: George Davis ~ A guy who hit well, ran real well, and fielded great, be it in the OF, at 3rd, or at SS. Awesome team value.

[Bill Burgess]

Would any of you consider adding these great teams to your posts in "Members Official Opinions"? These are valid opinions, and deserve to go into your official files. http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38137

[jjpm74]

C: Buck Ewing, Charlie Bennett
1B: Joe Start, Cap Anson
2B: Ross Barnes, Bid McPhee
SS: Jack Glasscock, Dickey Pearce
3B: Ezra Sutton, Deacon White
LF: Jim O'Rourke, Charlie Jones
CF: Paul Hines, George Gore
RF: King Kelly, Sam Thompson
P: Bob Caruthers, Tim Keefe
P: Charley Radbourne, Larry Corcoran
P: Pud Galvin, John Clarkson
P: Tony Mullane, Amos Rusie

[RuthMayBond]

1B: Joe Start, Cap Anson
2B: Ross Youngs

Interesting priority, and 2B choice

[jjpm74]

Oops. Ross Barnes.

Yes, I do consider Joe Start a more important 1st baseman than Cap Anson.

[dina123]

C-Buck Ewing,Charlie Bennett
1B-Joe Start,Cap Anson
2B-Ross Barnes,Bid McPhee
P-Bob Caruthers,Tim Keefe
P-Pud Galvin
CF-Paul Hines
According to me, these are the greatest players of this era.
===========
williams
Minnesota Drug Treatment

[Bill Burgess]

According to me, these are the greatest players of this era.

Welcome to Fever, dina123! Hope you have the time of your life!

Bill

[docsilvereagle]

c - Connie Mack
1b - Cap Anson
2b - Cupid Childs
SS - Jack Glasscock
3b - John McGraw
LF - Ed Delahanty
CF - Dummy Hoy or Ollie Pickering
RF - Oyster Burns
P - Cy Young
Pud Galvin
Old Hoss Radbourne
Al Spalding or Clark Griffith

Only 4 pitchers though most teams only carried 3 back then

[Bill Burgess]

Does anyone else wish to contribute their All-Time 19th Century All-Star teams, A & B?

Bill

[BillOK]

Catcher~~ ~~~Kelly (Ewing)
1st Base!~~~~ Brouthers (Stovey)
2nd Base~~~~~ Barnes (Childs)
3rd Base~ ~~~~McGraw (Cross)
Shortstop~~~~~Jennings (Glasscock)
Leftfield~~~~~~Delehanty(Kelley)
Centerfield~~~~Hamilton (Duffy)
Rightfield~~~~~Thompson (Keeler)
Starting Pitchers~~~Nichols, Caruthers, Hecker

A few points;
1) Kelly's fielding #'s are crazy. His assists,errors,etc. are so nuts something must have been going on lost to time. B. James thinks he was the 5th infielder when listed in the OF. Maybe. The errors are interesting, super high, yet he played for a manager ( Anson ) who would have been on him all the time, and they won, 5 pennants in 6 years with Chicago. Sure he liked to drink too. Could he have made errors on purpose when they were harmless to use that someway when it ment something? Maybe playing mind games with opponents to lull them in to security and slam it shut when important. He's on my team cause he was as gifted athleticly as anyone and smarter than most.

2) Barnes is clearly a troubling pick. But look it up, he dominated opponents yearly before sickness took his strength away for good. Those same opponents would go on to be some of the best players around ( Anson, White, O'Rourk ), I am sure Barnes would have continues his upper hand. As to the competition he faced, looking at those other players I find no majic time or year that a Major league is born, just steady play year by year. So if we compare him to his peers he comes out on top by a huge amount. If you think of it, Barnes could hit for average, hit for power, draw walks, steal bases ( he was very fast ) and play difficult positions ( 2nd and SS ) with great range and sure handedness ! Wagner is often called the greatest for his all-around talents, but he didn't have Barnes eye for walks. Ross Barnes is perhaps the greatest all-around player in base ball & baseball history!

3) McGraw was an on base marvel, and having maybe the best baseball mind every makes him SOOO valuable.

4) The Phillies' OF was something wasn't it?

5) I'm a sucker for a fine pitcher who is a fine hitter too, the value makes up for a little bit less pitching skill.

6) Why did Stovey play 1st base so much, alternating with CF no less? He was super fast, and won long throw contests so his arm was super, all in all a great CF'er in the makeup. Yet he plays 1st half the time, well he's here cause he is after Barnes the most underrated player in the 19th century.

7) Can you believe Billy Hamilton did not go in to the Hall of Fame till 1961!!

[RuthMayBond]

2) Barnes is clearly a troubling pick. But look it up, he dominated opponents yearly before sickness

And maybe a rule change?

<As to the competition he faced, looking at those other players I find no majic time or year that a Major league is born, just steady play year by year.>

You think the 1870s (and before) are pretty comparable with the 1960s?

<Wagner is often called the greatest for his all-around talents, but he didn't have Barnes eye for walks.>

When leading the league meant maybe twenty walks, and his career total was just over a hundred

<Ross Barnes is perhaps the greatest all-around player in base ball & baseball history!>

If you like MIGHTY small ponds...

[HDH]

The more I research, the more I'm impressed with Harry Stovey. He's jumped up to #1 in my book of best player not in the HOF. He's one of three players with more runs scored than games played (Not by much however). For his period, he was an outstanding slugger and a great base stealer. He's credited as the 1st player to reach the 100 HR pinnacle and has over 500 SB in spite of the fact they were not recorded until midway through his career. He's credited with popularizing the feet first slide and for wearing sliding pads. To me, most impressively for his period, he had over 110 R for 9 straight years.

The biggest mystery to me is how he played defensively. I gather Stovey was moved around yearly in a similar fashion that Stan Musial was. Stovey played the position he was needed at. He played LF after LF Harry Larkin began to play 1B exclusively due to his inability to judge fly balls. In addition, Stovey played along side an exceptional fielding CF Curt Welch. So, we can't judge if he would've been a good CF. Remember, in his era, we can't judge players defensive ability by looking at error totals. The 1B position was more a fielding position being played as much outside the foul lines as within them. All factors, vague as they are, I have to judge him a good fielder. Altough, I can't call this an absolute judgement.

Overall, if I make a 19th century all time all star team, I have to find a place for Harry Stovey. For instance, simply putting the best players by position may not make a good overall team. The lineup must balance out. I think when you ask a manager his all time team, he considers that aspect unless he's short sighted like many managers today seem to be.

[Brad Harris]

Guys,

It is perfectly acceptable to use players who played into the 1900's, as long as they played a significant portion of their careers in the 1800's.

Such players would include Cy Young, Jimmy Collins, George Davis, Willie Keeler, John McGraw, Clark Griffith, Bobby Lowe.

But Honus Wagner/Nap Lajoie? You know better than that. Please stop trying to get away with stuff you know you shouldn't. Please? It's just historically inappropriate.

And by "historically inappropriate," Bill means both inappropriate for the study of history as well as inappropriate on a historic scale!

Gonna have to start using that from now on. "That's just historically inappropriate." </disgust> Just another bat in the proverbial rack from which Bill pulverizes so many pellets from this period. Another peak in the parade to procuring a providential pennant for the perspiring professor of perseverance in his probing for priceless pearls and prizes of primeval philosophy, proficiencies and propaganda. Praises!

[Bill Burgess]

And by "historically inappropriate," Bill means both inappropriate for the study of history as well as inappropriate on a historic scale!

Gonna have to start using that from now on. "That's just historically inappropriate." </disgust>

Didn't think I could be so pithy, did ya, now?

Just another bat in the proverbial rack from which Bill pulverizes so many pellets from this period. Another peak in the parade to procuring a providential pennant for the perspiring professor of perseverance in his probing for priceless pearls and prizes of primeval philosophy, proficiencies and propaganda. Praises!

That's a lotta lovin' alliteration, my loquacious lad.

[bluesky5]

Manager/1B - Cap Anson

1. CF - Billy Hamilton
2. 2B - Ross Barnes
3. LF - Ed Delahanty
4. 1B - Dan Brouthers
5. RF - Sam Thompson
6. C - Buck Ewing
7. SS - George Davis
8. 3B - Jimmy Collins
9. P - Cy Young

Bench - Bob Caruthers - P/OF, John Montgomery Ward - MIF/P, Roger Connor - 1B/3B, King Kelly - C/RF, Willie Keeler - OF

Pitchers - Amos Rusie, John Clarkson, Kid Nichols

[JR Hart]

C- Buck Ewing
1B - Dan Brouthers
2B - Bid McPhee
3B - John McGraw
SS - Hugh Jennings
LF - Ed Delahanty
CF - Billy Hamilton
RF - Sam Thompson
U - Mike Kelly
Pitchers - Kid Nichols, Amos Rusie, Cy Young, Tim Keefe

This would be my team also.

[Hofpostcardcollector]

C-Buck Ewing
1B-Cap Anson
2B-Bid McPhee
SS-George Davis
3B-John McGraw
LF-Ed Delahanty
CF-Billy Hamilton
RF-Willie Keeler

SP-Cy Young
SP-Kid Nichols
SP-Old Hoss Radbourn
SP-Tim Keefe
SP-Pud Galvin

[PVNICK]

C: Buck Ewing
1B: Dan Brouthers
2B: Bid McPhee
SS: George Davis
3B: Jimmy Collins
LF: Ed Delahanty
CF: Billy Hamilton
RF: Willie Keeler

Bench/Honorable Mention
Utility: King Kelly, Monte Ward, Bob Caruthers
C: Charlie Bennett
1B: Cap Anson, Roger Connor
2B: drawing a blank and not a big Barnes supporter, maybe Nap Lajoie
SS: Bill Dahlen
3B: John McGraw
OF: Sam Thompson, George Gore, Paul Hines, Jesse Burkett, Pete Browning

P: Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, Kid Nichols, Hoss Radbourne, Cy Young, Amos Rusie

[JR Hart]

C Mike "King" Kelly
1B Dan Brouthers
2B Hardy Richardson
SS Jack Glasscock,
3B John McGraw
LF Ed Delahanty
CF Billy Hamilton
RF Sam Thompson
P Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, Jim "Pud" Galvin, Amos Rusie

[chicagowhitesox1173]

C1. Buck Ewing
1B. Dan Brouthers
2B. Bid McPhee
SS. Hugie Jennings
3B. Johm McGraw
LF. Ed Delahanty
CF. Billy Hamilton
RF. Jesse Burkett

SP1. Kid Nichols
SP2. Cy Young
SP3. Tim Keefe
SP4. John Clarkson
SP5. Pud Galvin