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Thread: Your 19th Century All-Time, All-Star Team

  1. #26
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    My All Time 19th Century Team:

    C:
    Buck Ewing, King Kelly

    1B:
    Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, Roger Connors

    2B:
    Ross Barnes, Bid McPhee

    3B:
    Jimmy Collins, John McGraw

    SS
    Hughie Jennings, George Davis

    OF
    Willie Keeler, Ed Delehanty, Billy Hamilton, Jesse Burkett

    Pitchers:
    Cy Young, Kid Nichols, Pud Galvin, Al Spalding, Tim Keefe, Jim Whitney, Amos Russie, Clark Griffith, Monte Ward, Ed Morris

    Honorable Mentions:

    1B Charles Comiskey, SS Herman Long, OF Dummy Hoy, 3B Deacon White, OF Pete Browning, OF Sam Thompson, OF Jim O'Rourke.

    My 19th Century All Star Team in today's present form of 32 all-stars if the Honorable Mentions are counted.
    Last edited by The Kid; 07-09-2007 at 03:12 PM.
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  2. #27
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    My all time 19th century team

    Boy was I excited to find this! I love wasting my time on stuff like this and I've already made my all-time Team of the Decade for each decade of baseball. For the 19th century I decided to just make one team, which fits right in with what you guys are doing! So here is my team.

    Note: I ONLY used data for games played between 1871-1899. Anything done from 1900 onward has no impact. (Also, teams listed are for the player's primary team during the 19th century; red denotes HOF.)

    Lineup:
    1. Billy Hamilton, CF, Philadelphia Phillies.
    860 SB and a .349 AVG.
    2. Hughie Jennings, SS, Baltimore Orioles.
    .323 AVG and 820 runs in his first eight seasons.
    3. Dan Brouthers, 1B, Buffalo Bisons.
    .344 AVG, .944 OPS, 106 HR, he's the third most valuable hitter of the century after Thompson and Cap.
    4. Sam Thompson, RF, Philadelphia Phillies.
    127 HR (second most of the century), .331 AVG.
    5. Hugh Duffy, LF, Boston Beaneaters.
    Actually spent more time at CF, 102 HR, 548 SB, .326 AVG
    6. George Davis, 3B, New York Giants.
    .313 AVG, one of only two HOF third basemen from the era.
    7. Buck Ewing, C, New York Giants.
    Leads catchers in RBI (883), R (1129), SB (354), AVG (.303), OPS (.807).
    8. Bid McPhee, 2B, Cincinnati Reds.
    The only HOF 2B, he leads in RBI (1067), R (1678), and SB (568), even if his rates aren't as good as Cupid Childs' (who only played ten years).

    Bench:
    Ed Delahanty, OF, Philadelphia Phillies. .345 AVG and .915 OPS.
    Roger Connor, 1B, New York Giants. Century-leading 138 HR and a .317 AVG.
    Cap Anson, 1B, Chicago Cubs. His incredibly long career means he leads in nearly all stats, including R (1996) and RBI (2076), along with a .333 AVG.
    Joe Kelley, OF, Baltimore Orioles. .340 AVG and .925 OPS.
    Bill Joyce, 3B, New York Giants. A short career keeps him out of the HOF, but in only seven years he pounded 70 HR and had a position-best .902 OPS.
    King Kelley, OF/C, Chicago Cubs. He is behind a few others in the outfield, including George Van Haltre, Jesse Burkett, and Jimmy Ryan, but we need a backup catcher and his numbers are better than any other, including a .308 AVG and 368 steals in only seven seasons in which the stat was kept.

    Pitchers
    Tim Keefe, New York Giants
    John Clarkson, Boston Braves
    Charley Radbourn, Providence Grays
    Kid Nichols, Boston Braves
    Al Spalding, Boston Braves. He can also play CF or 1B, having averaged 55 RBI and 70 R a season to go with his .313 AVG.
    Cy Young, Cleveland Spiders
    John Ward, New York Giants. Ward actually played more games at shortstop and second than as a pitcher, which means he is also this team's backup middle infielder, for which he is qualified with 1408 runs, 867 RBI, and 540 steals (a stat which wasn't even kept for almost half his career!).
    Pud Galvin, Buffalo Bisons. Galvin was a workhorse, leading baseball in wins and losses during the century because of 14 full seasons of work.
    Amos Rusie, New York Giants
    Jim McCormick, Cleveland Spiders
    Bob Caruthers, St. Louis Cardinals
    . I give Caruthers the last spot on the team over other qualified pitchers because of his versatility. As an outfielder he scored over 500 runs, over 150 steals, and an OPS of almost .800.

  3. #28
    Just think, all these pitchers are submarine and side armed hurlers.

  4. #29
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    Here are some early players of note, keeping with the spirit of a 40 man roster (plus Cap Anson to run the team) and avoiding some players who had careers which spilled over into the 20th Century to a large degree like Larry Lajoie. I have no rule or cutoff for this, so my squad may not be consistent from player to player on the cutoff. (and I am aware some of these players played more than one position, and some even caught a game or two). I will try to keep it at three or four players around each infield position. I know the best outfielder I leave off proably could out-hit the infielder listed, but here is my list anyway without looking up tooooo many stats:

    Infielders:

    Catchers:
    Buck Ewing
    Fred Carroll
    Jack Clements
    Charlie Bennett
    Deacon McGuire

    First Basemen:
    Dan Brouthers
    Roger Connor
    Cap Anson

    Second Basemen:
    Cupid Childs
    Fred Dunlap
    Hardy Richardson
    Bid McPhee

    Third Basemen:
    Bill Joyce
    John McGraw
    Denny Lyons
    Deacon White

    Shortstop:
    George Davis
    Jack Glasscock
    Hughie Jennings
    Bill Dahlen

    Outfield:
    Billy Hamilton
    Ed Delahanty
    King Kelly
    Pete Browning
    Sam Thompson
    Mike Tiernan
    Jim O'Rourke
    George Gore
    Jesse Burkett
    Willie Keeler
    Joe Kelley
    Bill Lange

    Pitchers:
    Kid Nichols
    Cy Young
    John Clarkson
    Amos Rusie
    Tim Keefe
    Old Hoss Radbourn
    Tony Mullane
    Mickey Welch
    Pud Galvin

  5. #30

    Cool 19th century team

    I'm new to this so I may be a bit late on this subject, but I just love stuff like this.

    Catcher: King Kelly ~ Just about the greatest utility player ever, his errors & passed balls are troubling, but he had the quickest of wits and would no doubt be a huge advantage to any pitcher.

    1st Base: Dan Brouthers ~ The best hitter of the era, hands down.

    2nd Base: Ross Barnes ~ I know this guy will raise a few eyebrows, but look at what we have. A league dominate hitter for average, power, and getting on base via the walk ( small #'s due to 9 balls needed to walk ). Played a difficult position to perfection, with range and sure handedness. Great base stealer and very fast. Also could play short or third as well as anyone. Truely this is the ultimate all-around player. As far as the competition, he out hit every one,Anson was great but not as good. Had he not been permanently weakened by his illness of 1877, he would have been the 1st player to 3000 hits. The fair-foul hit? Please, it just showed how great is bat control was, and he could hit without it. The guy is Wagner with a better eye at the plate!

    3rd Base: John McGraw ~ Had a short career, but was an on-base machine, fast and skilled on the bases, played a high average 3rd base or a little better. Anyway, having a guy who was maybe the best baseball mind ever on your team can't hurt either.

    Shortstop: Hugh Jennings ~ A teammate of McGraw and another player with a short but peaked career, for the time he was at his best he was the best fielder out there, who could hit for average and get on base with an amazing skill for being plunked, could run and steal, and was a smart baseball man himself.

    Leftfield: Ed Delehanty ~ Underated all-around player, Ed had no weaknesses and a ton of strengths.

    Centerfield: Billy Hamilton ~ The best leadoff man ever ( sorry Ricky ), vastly underated due to his quite nature. He didn't hit for power or have a good arm, but what he had as awesome.

    Rightfield: Sam Thompson ~ Making it a sweep for the Phils in the 1890's, Big Sam was a great power/average hitter who played a fine right with a cannon for an arm. Figured out long after his death, he was the best RBI man ever!

    Righthanded Starter: Tim Keefe ~ A workhorse with a eye for winning.

    Second Starter: Bob Caruthers ~ I would have picked a lefty here but they were few in this era. Bob was a small man ( even back then ), but could pitch,hit, field, & run. Take a look at how winning seems to follow him through his career, it's not just luck.

    Utility Man/ Pinch hitter: George Davis ~ A guy who hit well, ran real well, and fielded great, be it in the OF, at 3rd, or at SS. Awesome team value.

  6. #31
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    Would any of you consider adding these great teams to your posts in "Members Official Opinions"? These are valid opinions, and deserve to go into your official files. http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38137

  7. #32
    C: Buck Ewing, Charlie Bennett
    1B: Joe Start, Cap Anson
    2B: Ross Barnes, Bid McPhee
    SS: Jack Glasscock, Dickey Pearce
    3B: Ezra Sutton, Deacon White
    LF: Jim O'Rourke, Charlie Jones
    CF: Paul Hines, George Gore
    RF: King Kelly, Sam Thompson
    P: Bob Caruthers, Tim Keefe
    P: Charley Radbourne, Larry Corcoran
    P: Pud Galvin, John Clarkson
    P: Tony Mullane, Amos Rusie
    Last edited by jjpm74; 06-11-2008 at 01:34 PM.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    1B: Joe Start, Cap Anson
    2B: Ross Youngs
    Interesting priority, and 2B choice
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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  9. #34
    Oops. Ross Barnes.

    Yes, I do consider Joe Start a more important 1st baseman than Cap Anson.

  10. #35

    best baseball players

    C-Buck Ewing,Charlie Bennett
    1B-Joe Start,Cap Anson
    2B-Ross Barnes,Bid McPhee
    P-Bob Caruthers,Tim Keefe
    P-Pud Galvin
    CF-Paul Hines
    According to me, these are the greatest players of this era.
    ===========
    williams
    Minnesota Drug Treatment

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by dina123 View Post
    According to me, these are the greatest players of this era.
    Welcome to Fever, dina123! Hope you have the time of your life!

    Bill

  12. #37
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    c - Connie Mack
    1b - Cap Anson
    2b - Cupid Childs
    SS - Jack Glasscock
    3b - John McGraw
    LF - Ed Delahanty
    CF - Dummy Hoy or Ollie Pickering
    RF - Oyster Burns
    P - Cy Young
    Pud Galvin
    Old Hoss Radbourne
    Al Spalding or Clark Griffith

    Only 4 pitchers though most teams only carried 3 back then

  13. #38
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    Does anyone else wish to contribute their All-Time 19th Century All-Star teams, A & B?

    Bill

  14. #39

    Alltime team

    Catcher~~ ~~~Kelly (Ewing)
    1st Base!~~~~ Brouthers (Stovey)
    2nd Base~~~~~ Barnes (Childs)
    3rd Base~ ~~~~McGraw (Cross)
    Shortstop~~~~~Jennings (Glasscock)
    Leftfield~~~~~~Delehanty(Kelley)
    Centerfield~~~~Hamilton (Duffy)
    Rightfield~~~~~Thompson (Keeler)
    Starting Pitchers~~~Nichols, Caruthers, Hecker

    A few points;
    1) Kelly's fielding #'s are crazy. His assists,errors,etc. are so nuts something must have been going on lost to time. B. James thinks he was the 5th infielder when listed in the OF. Maybe. The errors are interesting, super high, yet he played for a manager ( Anson ) who would have been on him all the time, and they won, 5 pennants in 6 years with Chicago. Sure he liked to drink too. Could he have made errors on purpose when they were harmless to use that someway when it ment something? Maybe playing mind games with opponents to lull them in to security and slam it shut when important. He's on my team cause he was as gifted athleticly as anyone and smarter than most.

    2) Barnes is clearly a troubling pick. But look it up, he dominated opponents yearly before sickness took his strength away for good. Those same opponents would go on to be some of the best players around ( Anson, White, O'Rourk ), I am sure Barnes would have continues his upper hand. As to the competition he faced, looking at those other players I find no majic time or year that a Major league is born, just steady play year by year. So if we compare him to his peers he comes out on top by a huge amount. If you think of it, Barnes could hit for average, hit for power, draw walks, steal bases ( he was very fast ) and play difficult positions ( 2nd and SS ) with great range and sure handedness ! Wagner is often called the greatest for his all-around talents, but he didn't have Barnes eye for walks. Ross Barnes is perhaps the greatest all-around player in base ball & baseball history!

    3) McGraw was an on base marvel, and having maybe the best baseball mind every makes him SOOO valuable.

    4) The Phillies' OF was something wasn't it?

    5) I'm a sucker for a fine pitcher who is a fine hitter too, the value makes up for a little bit less pitching skill.

    6) Why did Stovey play 1st base so much, alternating with CF no less? He was super fast, and won long throw contests so his arm was super, all in all a great CF'er in the makeup. Yet he plays 1st half the time, well he's here cause he is after Barnes the most underrated player in the 19th century.

    7) Can you believe Billy Hamilton did not go in to the Hall of Fame till 1961!!

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillOK View Post
    2) Barnes is clearly a troubling pick. But look it up, he dominated opponents yearly before sickness
    And maybe a rule change?

    <As to the competition he faced, looking at those other players I find no majic time or year that a Major league is born, just steady play year by year.>

    You think the 1870s (and before) are pretty comparable with the 1960s?

    <Wagner is often called the greatest for his all-around talents, but he didn't have Barnes eye for walks.>

    When leading the league meant maybe twenty walks, and his career total was just over a hundred

    <Ross Barnes is perhaps the greatest all-around player in base ball & baseball history!>

    If you like MIGHTY small ponds...
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  16. #41

    Harry Stovey

    The more I research, the more I'm impressed with Harry Stovey. He's jumped up to #1 in my book of best player not in the HOF. He's one of three players with more runs scored than games played (Not by much however). For his period, he was an outstanding slugger and a great base stealer. He's credited as the 1st player to reach the 100 HR pinnacle and has over 500 SB in spite of the fact they were not recorded until midway through his career. He's credited with popularizing the feet first slide and for wearing sliding pads. To me, most impressively for his period, he had over 110 R for 9 straight years.

    The biggest mystery to me is how he played defensively. I gather Stovey was moved around yearly in a similar fashion that Stan Musial was. Stovey played the position he was needed at. He played LF after LF Harry Larkin began to play 1B exclusively due to his inability to judge fly balls. In addition, Stovey played along side an exceptional fielding CF Curt Welch. So, we can't judge if he would've been a good CF. Remember, in his era, we can't judge players defensive ability by looking at error totals. The 1B position was more a fielding position being played as much outside the foul lines as within them. All factors, vague as they are, I have to judge him a good fielder. Altough, I can't call this an absolute judgement.

    Overall, if I make a 19th century all time all star team, I have to find a place for Harry Stovey. For instance, simply putting the best players by position may not make a good overall team. The lineup must balance out. I think when you ask a manager his all time team, he considers that aspect unless he's short sighted like many managers today seem to be.
    In the 1920's, Harry Heilmann led the AL with a .364 average. In addition, he averaged 220 hits, 45 doubles, 12 triples, 16 homers, 110 runs, and 130 RBI.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burgess View Post
    Guys,

    It is perfectly acceptable to use players who played into the 1900's, as long as they played a significant portion of their careers in the 1800's.

    Such players would include Cy Young, Jimmy Collins, George Davis, Willie Keeler, John McGraw, Clark Griffith, Bobby Lowe.

    But Honus Wagner/Nap Lajoie? You know better than that. Please stop trying to get away with stuff you know you shouldn't. Please? It's just historically inappropriate.
    And by "historically inappropriate," Bill means both inappropriate for the study of history as well as inappropriate on a historic scale!

    Gonna have to start using that from now on. "That's just historically inappropriate." </disgust> Just another bat in the proverbial rack from which Bill pulverizes so many pellets from this period. Another peak in the parade to procuring a providential pennant for the perspiring professor of perseverance in his probing for priceless pearls and prizes of primeval philosophy, proficiencies and propaganda. Praises!
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Classic View Post
    And by "historically inappropriate," Bill means both inappropriate for the study of history as well as inappropriate on a historic scale!

    Gonna have to start using that from now on. "That's just historically inappropriate." </disgust>
    Didn't think I could be so pithy, did ya, now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Classic View Post
    Just another bat in the proverbial rack from which Bill pulverizes so many pellets from this period. Another peak in the parade to procuring a providential pennant for the perspiring professor of perseverance in his probing for priceless pearls and prizes of primeval philosophy, proficiencies and propaganda. Praises!
    That's a lotta lovin' alliteration, my loquacious lad.

  19. #44
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    19th c. "A and B" Team
    C - Ewing, Bennett
    1B - Anson, Brouthers
    2B - Barnes, F. Grant
    SS - Glasscock, Ward
    3B - White, McGraw
    LF - Delahanty, O'Rourke
    CF - Hamilton, Hines
    RF - Kelly, Thompson
    SP - Clarkson, Nichols

    Pre-NA Team
    C - Joe Leggett
    1B - Joe Start
    2B - Bob Vavasour Ferguson
    SS - George Wright
    3B - Dickey Pearce
    OF - Nate Berkenstock
    CF - Harry Wright
    OF - Lip Pike
    P - Jim Creighton
    Last edited by bluesky5; 09-16-2013 at 06:44 PM.
    "I go all out, and I'm going to bring that to the table everyday. In good times and in bad times." - Eric Byrnes
    "As long as I have fun playing, the stats will take care of themselves." - Ken Griffey Jr.
    "I saw Nolan Ryan throw 212 pitches in 11 innings one day. It messed him up so bad, he had to retire 16 years later at 46." - Reggie Jackson
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." - Nerdlinger

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodger View Post
    C- Buck Ewing
    1B - Dan Brouthers
    2B - Bid McPhee
    3B - John McGraw
    SS - Hugh Jennings
    LF - Ed Delahanty
    CF - Billy Hamilton
    RF - Sam Thompson
    U - Mike Kelly
    Pitchers - Kid Nichols, Amos Rusie, Cy Young, Tim Keefe
    This would be my team also.

  21. #46
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    C-Buck Ewing
    1B-Cap Anson
    2B-Bid McPhee
    SS-George Davis
    3B-John McGraw
    LF-Ed Delahanty
    CF-Billy Hamilton
    RF-Willie Keeler

    SP-Cy Young
    SP-Kid Nichols
    SP-Old Hoss Radbourn
    SP-Tim Keefe
    SP-Pud Galvin

  22. #47
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    C: Buck Ewing
    1B: Dan Brouthers
    2B: Bid McPhee
    SS: George Davis
    3B: Jimmy Collins
    LF: Ed Delahanty
    CF: Billy Hamilton
    RF: Willie Keeler

    Bench/Honorable Mention
    Utility: King Kelly, Monte Ward, Bob Caruthers
    C: Charlie Bennett
    1B: Cap Anson, Roger Connor
    2B: drawing a blank and not a big Barnes supporter, maybe Nap Lajoie
    SS: Bill Dahlen
    3B: John McGraw
    OF: Sam Thompson, George Gore, Paul Hines, Jesse Burkett, Pete Browning

    P: Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, Kid Nichols, Hoss Radbourne, Cy Young, Amos Rusie

  23. #48
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    C Mike "King" Kelly
    1B Dan Brouthers
    2B Hardy Richardson
    SS Jack Glasscock,
    3B John McGraw
    LF Ed Delahanty
    CF Billy Hamilton
    RF Sam Thompson
    P Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, Jim "Pud" Galvin, Amos Rusie

  24. #49
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    C1. Buck Ewing
    1B. Dan Brouthers
    2B. Bid McPhee
    SS. Hugie Jennings
    3B. Johm McGraw
    LF. Ed Delahanty
    CF. Billy Hamilton
    RF. Jesse Burkett

    SP1. Kid Nichols
    SP2. Cy Young
    SP3. Tim Keefe
    SP4. John Clarkson
    SP5. Pud Galvin
    Last edited by chicagowhitesox1173; 01-05-2013 at 05:18 PM.
    "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

    "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

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