FENCE DRILL does it help?

[hiddengem]

"His 400th career home run flew majestically toward left-center field ..."

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/ne..._cws&fext=.jsp

Well I was wrong on the exact location the ball was hit, but still the pitch isn't the same as Jim's.

[MSandman]

No, it's a waste of my time. And, I already said I'm sorry for overreacting, but I'll repeat it here.

Thank you for the apology Jim. I had started typing my reply before you had done so.

I really would like to see the drill at a lower pitch tho. What's to lose? Maybe you'll convince me and if so, I'll concede. I'm always open to learning something.

[MSandman]

Well I was wrong on the exact location the ball was hit, but still the pitch isn't the same as Jim's.

Agreed, the height is certainly different, but I DO think it's still inside.

I really do think it'd be interesting to see the drill performed/filmed at lower pitches (at least something in the strike zone).

[hiddengem]

Agreed, the height is certainly different, but I DO think it's still inside.

I really do think it'd be interesting to see the drill performed/filmed at lower pitches (at least something in the strike zone).

We are working on getting a clip up of Tony Gwynn hitting the same pitch.

[MSandman]

We are working on getting a clip up of Tony Gwynn hitting the same pitch.

I assume you mean "the same HIGH pitch as Jim's" (which is up out of the strike zone, isn't it?).

Be careful w/ Gwynn tho... not sure we're comparing apples to apples

Jim Booth, 11-10-2005:

Tony Gwynn has no idea how a swing actually works either, and he was more of a Lau type hitter. Yes, he was a successful hitter, but that doesn't mean he actually knows how he did it or how to teach it. Plus, he was a linear hitter. 8 out of 10 of his hits were singles. If you want to hit the ball hard, you have to use rotational mechanics.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/archiv...p/t-33799.html

I still think it would be more "relevant" to see Jim doing the drill at a pitch down in the zone, IMO.

[jbooth]

We are working on getting a clip up of Tony Gwynn hitting the same pitch.

Here is the clip you sent me, I'll let you comment on it;

[MSandman]

Is the actual video clip (GIF, AVI, MPG, etc.) available?


I can see very similar body positions to Jim's at this point in the swing (on this pitch, THIS TIME). Let me ask you something tho (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I genuinely am inquiring)... is this the USUAL way to hit an inside pitch? Or do you normally try to hit it out front more?

If the purpose of this drill is to still allow a hitter to get the barrel on the ball when he's a bit late/fooled, then I can see it might help w/ that. However, do you actually TEACH players to go after the inside pitch in this manner?




FWIW, here's another one:


Now I know that Gonzalez is definitely standing further away from the plate than Jim. But if Jim were standing back in his normal position (relative to the plate), wouldn't the pitch he's swinging at be WAY inside?

Again, my gut instinct suggests that this drill is practicing something that we'd only need to do "by accident". Am I all wet?

[hiddengem]

Is the actual video clip (GIF, AVI, MPG, etc.) available?

Believe it or not, I have this clip paused on my TV, and I took a picture of it with my digital camera. The DVD is made by MLB productions and its called Hitters on Hitting Finding the Sweet spot. I would highly reccomend it. Has a whole section on T. Williams, and has alot of great clips and swings from great hitters.

I can see very similar body positions to Jim's at this point in the swing (on this pitch, THIS TIME). Let me ask you something tho (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I genuinely am inquiring)... is this the USUAL way to hit an inside pitch? Or do you normally try to hit it out front more?

Ok, now that you understand that yes a Major League hitter might get into this position once and a while we can move forward. If you were to see the entire clip of Gwynn taking this swing, you would see that this pitch is in fact a ball off the plate inside and up, but BECAUSE he knows how to start the swing with his shoulders and keep the bat inside the ball(even though he doesn't belive he does this) he is able to keep this very tough pitch, fair.

If the purpose of this drill is to still allow a hitter to get the barrel on the ball when he's a bit late/fooled, then I can see it might help w/ that. However, do you actually TEACH players to go after the inside pitch in this manner?

The purpose of the DRILL is show how a hitter should properly stay inside the ball by OVEREMPHASIZING it but getting to a pitch up and in and in a position to KEEP IT FAIR.

This drill has nothing to do with a hitter being fooled or late. And yes I do teach my kids to go at this pitch like that, because if they can stay on a ball in this location by keeping their hands inside it and keep it fair, they will(should) have a clear understanding of how to approach other pitches in better locations.
Understand?

Now I know that Gonzalez is definitely standing further away from the plate than Jim. But if Jim were standing back in his normal position (relative to the plate), wouldn't the pitch he's swinging at be WAY inside?

Yes of course, but he's not normall going to swing at that pitch, I hope. Again for the nth time, this is a drill to teach a kid how to properly start the swing so the hands and bat stay inside the ball.

Again, my gut instinct suggests that this drill is practicing something that we'd only need to do "by accident". Am I all wet?

Thats perfectly fine, then don't use the drill. This drill is designed to show how you properly keep you hands inside the ball on the MOST difficult pitch to keep fair. If they know how to do it on this pitch and can do it like Gwynn, the other pitchers will become much more easy to keep fair, thats all.

[Jake Patterson]

I see it and I know what you are talking about.i;m not here to argue but to learn and benefit.even though booth can do the drill Im not so sure if its the right thing to teach or use for any reason.I WANT TO BELIEVE,BUT I CAN"T.

Gem does anybody use this on a pro level?

We use this as a basic hitting drill. Great for indoor practices. We use it to teach the hitters how to keep their hands inside, teaching the swing inside out. As said above, its difficult (impossible) to do if you swing with your arms. Good for kids.

Jim, your swing ain't bad for old(er) fella.... Just joking..

[MSandman]

Fair enough, HG. But as far as I can tell, the drill was never framed as "to practice how to hit up/in pitches". I thought it was being advertised as just a general good thing to do.

I guess my whole point in all of this is centered around this:

If Jim were to retake this video and stand off the same plate 6-10 inches my guess is that you would see a swing very similar to the ones you see with Troy and Nomar. Its a drill guys.

So... if Jim would still swing more like the pros when standing further back, then is that because (a) Jim has a good swing (for an ol' fart ) or (b) because the fence/wall guided him to a good inside/out path? IOW, if you put a kid next to the fence - 6-10" further back than Jim is - could the kid still use a very poor swing to get the bat by the fence w/o hitting it? If so, did the drill help the kid?

[hiddengem]

Fair enough, HG. But as far as I can tell, the drill was never framed as "to practice how to hit up/in pitches". I thought it was being advertised as just a general good thing to do.

I guess my whole point in all of this is centered around this:

So... if Jim would still swing more like the pros when standing further back, then is that because (a) Jim has a good swing (for an ol' fart ) or (b) because the fence/wall guided him to a good inside/out path? IOW, if you put a kid next to the fence - 6-10" further back than Jim is - could the kid still use a very poor swing to get the bat by the fence w/o hitting it? If so, did the drill help the kid?

For the last time, this is NOT a drill designed to learn how to specifically hit a pitch up and in. I'm not going to say to myself, today I'm going to go to the cage and work on hitting the pitch chest high on the black of the plate. If I went up to the plate looking for that pitch to hit and swinging at it, I'll be out of my uniform faster than I got into it.

The whole purpose of the drill is to learn how to keep you hands inside the ball correctly and to use rotation to get the bat head to the ball, not by starting the swing with your arms which creates a cast often times.

If you still don't understand what the drill was intended for and why you are doing it, don't do it, becuase we've beat this thing to death and if your not getting it by now, I'm afraid you might not ever get it....Not be rude, I'm just out of ways to explain it at this point. Sorry.

[MSandman]

I DO get it HG, but that doesn't mean I have to agree w/ it.

Dead horse.

[jbooth]

Fair enough, HG. But as far as I can tell, the drill was never framed as "to practice how to hit up/in pitches". I thought it was being advertised as just a general good thing to do.

I guess my whole point in all of this is centered around this:

So... if Jim would still swing more like the pros when standing further back, then is that because (a) Jim has a good swing (for an ol' fart ) or (b) because the fence/wall guided him to a good inside/out path? IOW, if you put a kid next to the fence - 6-10" further back than Jim is - could the kid still use a very poor swing to get the bat by the fence w/o hitting it? If so, did the drill help the kid?

I'm going to echo what HG said and then I'm ending the discussion.

The drill is designed to make sure you turn before moving the bat, and keep the hands close to your body while turning. That's it. Why are you making this so difficult? It's really simple.

[MSandman]

Care to answer my last question then?

[swingbuster]

Good thread...I get everybodies point of view. I can swing inside the ball like that if you let me use your bat.

Another drill can be done with the inside seam drill. Put ball on tee with laces vertical and facing backwards and hit the inside seam. THis swing IS over the plate and the mechanics are very sound.

[Ursa Major]

Sandman, you have to understand the historical genesis of Jim's "these Nyman bozos", which did not refer to you, I'm sure. He and I were kicked off Nyman's site for essentially taking the same position he is here in the face of people who, more vociferously than you, insisted that because it wasn't a "game swing" it could only teach bad mechanics.

I'll take a shot at answering your last question to Jim: "IOW, if you put a kid next to the fence - 6-10" further back than Jim is - could the kid still use a very poor swing to get the bat by the fence w/o hitting it? If so, did the drill help the kid?" Sure, the kid could tuck his hands in and drive them straight to the pitcher without turning at all, then pulling them left and letting the bat limp through ths strike zone.

Guess what? Drill over for that kid!

Here's what I've learned from really good hitting coaches, and I include Jim/JBooth in that category. Rather than parroting drills and cues picked up from a hitting video or book to every kid, they assess his swings and deficiencies and try out drills that may work. They watch how the kid reacts and what it does to his swing. If it works, they'll stay with it for awhile. If not, they'll adjust it or drop it, or give the kids different cues.

Let me get on a small soapbox here. My point is not directed at you, MSandman. You're a bright and open-minded guy. But here goes:

The biggest obstacle to improving your coaching techniques by learning from others online is to try to naysay an idea, drill or technique out of a desire to prove another "wrong" and yourself "right", particularly if you insist that it won't work for all kids with like problems. Examine the idea, see if it might work for some kids in some circumstances, even if only for a short period in their development. Try it out on a few kids and sell it with genuine enthusiasm; they may take to it better or worse than you expected. Watch the kid to see at what point it does not help, or introduces some new problem. Try to use different cues -- if the kid's into ballet, use a ballet cue if you know an appropriate term, or a skateboarding term, or whatever cue leads to a muscle memory that will get the kid to using the right group of muscles in the right way. And, if the drill or cue has a potential ultimate downside, drop it when the initial problem being addressed is sufficiently "cured".

Obviously, practice time is limited so you'll have to perform triage and decide which of the potential drills are worth trying. But why not keep it in your bag of tricks. And, of course, if the "drill" requires Erik's $180 Instructo 500 swing trainer, well you can just forget about it for that reason.

[MSandman]

Sandman, you have to understand the historical genesis of Jim's "these Nyman bozos", which did not refer to you, I'm sure.

Sure sounded like he was referring to me and assumed I was a Nymanite. Heck, I do glean some useful info from him, but I'm NOT a SetPro customer, and I really can't STAND the guy's attitude.

He and I were kicked off Nyman's site for essentially taking the same position he is here in the face of people who, more vociferously than you, insisted that because it wasn't a "game swing" it could only teach bad mechanics.

Well, at least I'm not saying it has to be a game swing. I do find drills useful, just not this one... my opinion (which WAS, BTW, the topic of this thread! )

I'll take a shot at answering your last question to Jim: "IOW, if you put a kid next to the fence - 6-10" further back than Jim is - could the kid still use a very poor swing to get the bat by the fence w/o hitting it? If so, did the drill help the kid?" Sure, the kid could tuck his hands in and drive them straight to the pitcher without turning at all, then pulling them left and letting the bat limp through ths strike zone.

I believe there's another way, which I see in Jim's swing, and having done it several times today in front of my slider here in my family room: you can disconnect the arms from the torso and turn the arms/shoulders faster/more than the torso. IOW, excessively pull the the lead arm out of the way early and then just keep turning the torso. IMO, the only pitch this is good practice for is one that is extremely inside (off the plate).

I'm not trying to convince those of you who like this drill that it's not for you; simply that it's not for ME. I've also clearly articulated why I do not care for it. Let's not burn any bridges on this, as I'm sure in the future there will be plenty that we will agree on.

Here's what I've learned from really good hitting coaches, and I include Jim/JBooth in that category. Rather than parroting drills and cues picked up from a hitting video or book to every kid, they assess his swings and deficiencies and try out drills that may work. They watch how the kid reacts and what it does to his swing. If it works, they'll stay with it for awhile. If not, they'll adjust it or drop it, or give the kids different cues.

And what makes you think I don't do the same when I'm coaching live w/ hitters? But we're out HERE discussing coaching and hitting. And I'm sure you know that most of what we're saying has been said a million times before us (maybe not on the 'net, but in person). So, whether I say "connection" or someone else says "knob to the pitcher" or "inside the ball" or whatever else, we're really ALL "parroting", aren't we?

The biggest obstacle to improving your coaching techniques by learning from others online is to try to naysay an idea, drill or technique out of a desire to prove another "wrong" and yourself "right", particularly if you insist that it won't work for all kids with like problems.

But wasn't that the whole point of this thread? Didn't someone ask "What do you think of this drill?"??? So, because I happen to fall on the minority side of this drill, I'M the bad guy and the only one trying to "be right"? C'mon.

Obviously, practice time is limited so you'll have to perform triage and decide which of the potential drills are worth trying. But why not keep it in your bag of tricks. And, of course, if the "drill" requires Erik's $180 Instructo 500 swing trainer, well you can just forget about it for that reason.

Yes, I feel the deja vu too.

[Ursa Major]

Sure sounded like he was referring to me and assumed I was a Nymanite. Heck, I do glean some useful info from him, but I'm NOT a SetPro customer, and I really can't STAND the guy's attitude.

No, you're not a Nymanite. We can smell 'em, even if the herd is dwindling. And if Jim wanted to dis you, he would've come right out and done so.

I believe there's another way, which I see in Jim's swing, and having done it several times today in front of my slider here in my family room: you can disconnect the arms from the torso and turn the arms/shoulders faster/more than the torso. IOW, excessively pull the the lead arm out of the way early and then just keep turning the torso. IMO, the only pitch this is good practice for is one that is extremely inside (off the plate).

You wanna debate how many ways one can make a lousy swing?? I certainly wasn't saying my idea was the only one. And you did the fence drill inside in front of your slider? With what kind of bat? If you fribbitz up your swing, well... you need a couch to sleep on somewhere when the spouse finds the damage?

And what makes you think I don't do the same when I'm coaching live w/ hitters? But we're out HERE discussing coaching and hitting. And I'm sure you know that most of what we're saying has been said a million times before us (maybe not on the 'net, but in person). So, whether I say "connection" or someone else says "knob to the pitcher" or "inside the ball" or whatever else, we're really ALL "parroting", aren't we?

I expressly excluded you from my accusation. I have every reason to believe you're one of those who assesses each kid on his own terms and adjusts your coaching accordingly. I was just worried that the thread was drifting toward people trying to "win" the argument. Or that people were worrying about whether an attempt to probe their opinion was a personal attack (or was making someone the bad guy). My point was simply to say that rather than trying to pigeonhole something as "good drill" or "bad drill" (say those four words together five times quickly), we all learn better if we see if there's some circumstance in which it might have a benefit. Drills, unlike Erik's Instructo, are free, right? (Except for the time you waste learning them...) I agree that the drill has minimal utility, as I've said. Who knows, maybe you can win a bar bet with it, betting someone a beer that you can stand next to a wall with a rolled up magazine and blast a shot glass on a wall sconce across the room without touching the wall!

Didn't someone ask "What do you think of this drill?"??? So, because I happen to fall on the minority side of this drill, I'M the bad guy and the only one trying to "be right"? C'mon.

I'm only trying to be "right" when I learn from everyone else, find the whole grail of hitting and shout, "Eureka!" I don't have to be in the same spot in which I started to do so. I used to be a bigger believer in the fence drill and the Nymanites' analysis largely turned me against it.

All anyone asks is that people who come in here and keep an open mind. If I think that the fence drill would be a good ten minute drill on the second or third day of spring practice to remind kids to keep their hands back, I'm open to you saying, "No, even then kids will develop a bad disconnect of their hands that outweighs the benefits," or, "Here's a better drill or device to impress upon them to keep their hands back and it doesn't encourage 'cheating'." I then may realize it's a dumb drill all the way around.
That would be cool and really would make you the good guy!

[hiddengem]

I DO get it HG, but that doesn't mean I have to agree w/ it.

Dead horse.

If you don't agree with this drill to try and teach your kids how to keep their hands inside the ball correctly and turn their hips and torso before the bat head, WHAT drill would you suggest to teach a kid to properly do that?

[jsiggy]

I'm 6 feet tall and I can stand with my toes 20 inches from the fence, take a normal swing and not hit the fence.

It's a DRILL!!! Drills are designed to give the athlete a "feeling" of what needs to be done.

The f--ing drill doesn't have to be a picture perfect swing. The DRILL...

The problem is the above two quotes don't add up: "take a normal swing" and "it's just a f--ing drill".

What these Nyman Bozos can't understand is that the DRILL is teaching you to not disconnect EARLY and/or AWAY from the body.

Actually I think the "Nyman Bozos", as you guys continually classify them, are pretty bright and understood that quite clearly. The problems that they listed quite clearly and that I have with this drill are:

• encouraging rather severe disconnection from middle-to-end of the swing. They preferred teaching rotating the box as a unit through the entire swing rather than connected early and then disconnecting at the end as most do with this drill (including your swing)
• improper goal (miss the fence rather than stay connected) which is huge for kids. You miss the fence largely by keeping the hands in tight. Keeping the hands in tight can be accomplished by maintaining a proper box... it can also be accomplished in other less efficient manners.

The drill teaches staying in with the hands, and rotating the bat with the shoulders.

And is effective for the early part of the swing. If you have a kid that is casting, it could help as it can give them a feel for staying connected early on. But again, past the point of the max bat lag position, it encourages disconnection of the hands and/or front shoulder - at least in those I've used it with.

[jsiggy]

A couple of example drills I would prefer:

• Take tophand thumb and hook to shirt a little above and outside backside nipple. Normal swing (releasing the shirt will happen naturally).
• Use a heavy object instead of bat - medicine ball or cable with resistance attached to wall. Also, very good for removing extra slop that creeps during the launch of a swing.
• Buster's drill above is also better IMO. (Did I just agree with Buster??)

[Ursa Major]

jsiggy said: A couple of example drills I would prefer:

Take tophand thumb and hook to shirt a little above and outside backside nipple. Normal swing (releasing the shirt will happen naturally).
Use a heavy object instead of bat - medicine ball or cable with resistance attached to wall. Also, very good for removing extra slop that creeps during the launch of a swing.
Buster's drill above is also better IMO. (Did I just agree with Buster??) jsiggy

Thanks, Sig. Very positive suggestions. I've been using the shirt grab idea ever since I saw you post it at H-M.O. It certainly imparts to the kids in a very visual and visceral way the need to stay connected, and also helps 'em learn that the top hand is better off starting loose (so that it's free to slide under the handle so that the palm ends up facing up).

In drill #2, what do the kids grip onto? Does it make any difference?

As to Buster's drill, I've been very hesitant to suggest anything to kids that sounds like a "hit inside the ball" cue, because I'm worried that they'll deaden their hands before impact to do so. Dead hands are a big problem with the 12-and-under-set, because they often slow the hands to "aim" the bathead at the ball. Anybody share that worry?

[jsiggy]

Thanks, Sig. Very positive suggestions. I've been using the shirt grab idea ever since I saw you post it at H-M.O. It certainly imparts to the kids in a very visual and visceral way the need to stay connected, and also helps 'em learn that the top hand is better off starting loose (so that it's free to slide under the handle so that the palm ends up facing up).

Nice to hear it's been useful. However I'm pretty sure I got it from one of those "Nyman Bozos" as you and Jim say.

In drill #2, what do the kids grip onto? Does it make any difference?

Grip? I guess you mean on the cable drill? With the medicine ball you just hold it and turn (and preferably throw if you have place to throw it).

For the 'cable' version, visually think of taking hold of a rope handle on a lat pull/tricep extension machine with some weight on it and launching the swing. One of Nyman's forums had someone post a very nice image of Manny's swing attached to a weight stack if you've seen that? I've tried it using several extra heavy duty bungies (double them up for more resistance) to the corner of the wall and ceiling. The resistance hopefully helps them understand:

• to use the stronger muscles of the middle
• to feel the weak position of the arms if they get away from the body
• that they are stronger if they properly load the middle

As to Buster's drill, I've been very hesitant to suggest anything to kids that sounds like a "hit inside the ball" cue, because I'm worried that they'll deaden their hands before impact to do so. Dead hands are a big problem with the 12-and-under-set, because they often slow the hands to "aim" the bathead at the ball. Anybody share that worry?

Good point.

Okay I don't like it either.

[hiddengem]

Good thread...I get everybodies point of view. I can swing inside the ball like that if you let me use your bat.

Another drill can be done with the inside seam drill. Put ball on tee with laces vertical and facing backwards and hit the inside seam. THis swing IS over the plate and the mechanics are very sound.

I've been using that for a long time..Works great and I don't recall experiencing dead hands, but I do see how that occur.

[swingbuster]

URSA

What is a little more important than these drills is the preswing action that can be used that is REALLY important as to the bat path. IT must be taught and then apply the swing to the drill. I don't think the fence feedback leads to the correct conclusions about how to load. It is kind of like a magic trick...or can you do this thing and that maybe gets their attention.

I have had casting kids that you can force through this drill but did not have a clue how to stop casting when you move the fence.

The loading pattern effects the circular path that gets the barrel inside at the right time and out in the zone at the correct time in the rotation.

IOWS , for the sake of illustration ; if you just consider the bat barrel...it should leave the 45 slot , go to splitting the helmet or more and return to the launch slot in a certain timing with the rotation. The bat returning to the 45 slot and hands turning back over in the pitch plane accelerates the barrel back/in and backwards in a circle away from the batter...into the circle of the swing path. This exerts a back and in force that the hips rotate against. This preswing pattern is what gets the bat on an inside out path in concert with the hip turn not the fence. The shoulder and elbow action that makes this happen is a subject for another thread maybe

So if the fence is the "training aid" or the "Enforcer" as Mike E calls it and I can accept that...it is no better than the coach teaching its signicance and as always the devil is in the details. This is true for all training aids.

The most teachable part of the swing is not the true swing itself...it is the proper loading action in the PRESWING. If this is wrong then nothing else matters then evrything that follows is wrong.

The movement pattern and the proper muscle groups activated and elastic energy and the direction of the forces applied dynamically and in sequence must be understood. Then they can best be applied by the mainatanence of the box created through the early part of the rotation as the forces work in the proper sequence. If the lead arm starts bent it must remain bent well into the rotation then the bat barrel will come out effortlessly and at the right time and miss the fence IF YOUR NO UNREASONABLY CLOSE

When we teach any part of the true swing with any method that skips vital preswing elements even if they are reduced to a very subtle level we are using bandaids and compensations....a drill is effective when its reason to exist is understood and when used by a guy that knows the swing mechanics. The average newbie, while doing what he must do to learn , will be going through the motions of the drill and missing much of the relevancy and most of the key elements of the swing.

Paint me into that picture 10 years ago........start your journey with an open mind and study