Best Outfield Arm Ever:

[Bill Burgess]

1. Barfield
2. Meusel
3. Ichiro
4. Clemente
5. Evans
6. Guerrero
7. Andruw
8. Shoeless
9. Mays
10. Ruth

Nice work, Randy. I think that's a very good shot. Thanks. Got most of the usual suspects. No love for Carl Furillo?

BB

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Nice work, Randy. I think that's a very good shot. Thanks. Got most of the usual suspects. No love for Carl Furillo?

BB

Just sorta spat them out in the order I thought. Of course there's tons of room for shuffling, but that should be the main ones. West Coast did hit on a few that might belong in there somewhere, and this Furillo fellow of yours perhaps as well.

Tought list to put in order due to the lack of actual evidence. Equivalent to a list of the greatest bunters of all time. Did the greatest bunters actually bunt the most often, and how often did the defense take away a great bunters main weapon.

[538280]

There are multiple sources of valid evidence.

You don't have to give in to the statistical evidence if you're cognizant of the fact that assists can be very misleading. Jeff Francoeur and Brad Hawpe led all major league right fielders in assists last year, and they played 67 and 89 games, respectively. People almost certainly ran on them because they felt as if they could. That doesn't necessarily mean they have tremendous arms, but on paper (especially given the assists/game) they look like must have outstanding throwing arms.

This is one case where the currently used method of statistical analysis is very much inept, and expert eyewitness opinion is what we need to defer to.

Assists aren't perfect, I never said they are. Jeff Francoer and Brad Hawpe actually have already earned reputations around baseball for having very strong arms.

But, in this case where Barfield is so much better than everyone else I think it had better take A LOT of expert opinion to change my mind that he had the best outfield arm of the past 25 years by a wide margin. From what I've read, expert opinion seems to support that conclusion anyway.

One interesting thing I've heard is how people are starting to use sac flies allowed to judge an outfielders throwing arm. Intutively, I would think that is a good way to measure it. What do you guys think?

[538280]

10. Ruth

Ruth, Sultan? Maybe I should put Reggie Jackson in my top 10. (Really, Reggie was known to have a quick zip type throw in his younger years. He led the league in assists four times. Putting him in the top 20 wouldn't be such a stretch).

Ruth did have a very good arm when younger I know, but from what I've read he lost that ability real quick. There's no way he had a better arm than guys like Hooper, Parker, and Winfield. Even if his arm was just as good or better than those guys for a few years, he didn't stay there.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Ruth, Sultan? Maybe I should put Reggie Jackson in my top 10. (Really, Reggie was known to have a quick zip type throw in his younger years. He led the league in assists four times. Putting him in the top 20 wouldn't be such a stretch).

Ruth did have a very good arm when younger I know, but from what I've read he lost that ability real quick. There's no way he had a better arm than guys like Hooper, Parker, and Winfield. Even if his arm was just as good or better than those guys for a few years, he didn't stay there.

Like I said, I threw those out there. Ruth would belong in the top 15 for sure though. Where did you read that he lost his arm? He actually maintained his arm rather well even though he lost a few steps beginning in '29. His arm was very strong, very accurate, and he never threw to the wrong base. This shouldn't be up for debate, but since you wanna make it one, show your sources my good little buddy.

[leecemark]

--Lost a few steps is quite an understatement. Well balanced by the overstatement of claiming he never threw to the wrong base though. My understanding is Ruth had a good and accurate arm, but not the cannon possessed by the truely great outfielders. I think some people assume that because he started out as a pitcher he must have had a great arm (or some people just assume he was great at everything ). The throws are completly different from the outfield though and that assumption doesn't hold water.

[538280]

Like I said, I threw those out there. Ruth would belong in the top 15 for sure though. Where did you read that he lost his arm? He actually maintained his arm rather well even though he lost a few steps beginning in '29. His arm was very strong, very accurate, and he never threw to the wrong base. This shouldn't be up for debate, but since you wanna make it one, show your sources my good little buddy.

From reading general things about Ruth like online bios and short articles in books and magazines, they all seem to say he lost all his field ability in the mid 1920s. Maybe they're wrong though. People seem to lump things together. Maybe Ruth lost his range but not the arm. I have been arguing for a long time the same about Reggie.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Mark, I've played both pitcher and outfielder, I understand the difference. There's no "assumption" being made JUST BECAUSE Babe was a pitcher, believe me. He had an all-time arm, period.

He did lose a few steps later on. A few steps is quite a lot, so that's no understatement. He made up for that by being a smart fielder, being positioned properly, taking good angles and hustling. His running catch off Frisch in the '28 World Series is a prime example of this. It was a long run into foul territory dealing with screaming fans and the seats. He got great jumps. And he was known for never throwing to the wrong base, so that's no overstatement.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

they all seem to say he lost all his field ability in the mid 1920s.

Mid 20's?

'23 - 215
'24 - just under 230
'25 - just over 250
'26 - 212
stayed around 225 during season
'32 - 235

[leecemark]

--Never is almost always an exaggeration. Nobody plays as long as Ruth without making some mistakes.

[SABR Steve]

Having seen a lot of games from the 1950's on, I'd have to throw in Henry Aaron, not counting his last years. He was not quite as strong as Clemente but more accurate. I once saw him charge a line drive one-hopper then gun it to first. No base hit.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

--Never is almost always an exaggeration. Nobody plays as long as Ruth without making some mistakes.

Agreed. Never in terms of the expected level of screwups, mistakes, brainfarts, whoopsies, or boneheaded blunders. He was known to "never" throw to the wrong base.

It's easy to overlook Babe's great arm and fielding instincts when he gained weight later on and lost a few steps, and when his offense overshadowed every other part of his game by such a huge margin. Those who played with him and against him understood what an all around player he was. I think Cobb was a better fielder than most give him credit for, and his peers back this up, but it really doesn't matter because his hitting and baserunning steal the show. Albert Pujols day in and day out is a very smart baserunner who rarely hesitates, and makes textbook decisions. Yet he's not fast, so this gets overlooked and his amazing hitting is payed attention to. Human nature I guess. These guys at the top of the list threw very well. It was what they did and it's what got focused on because for the most part it was their main skill. It's not so far fetched to believe that others have had nearly as good arms, but also possessed other great tools. We just need to pay attention to ALL the tools instead of being clouded by the main one/ones.

[yanks0714]

[QUOTE]

Clemente and Mays would top the list of players I've seen. Carl Furillo was before my time, but he supposedly had one of the great arms of all time. Dewey Evans and Dave Parker had some guns, too. As was mentioned, Kaline had a helluva arm, as did Roger Maris, if you get a chance, catch the play and throw he made in Game 7 of the 62 WS in the 9th inning, kept Alou at 3rd on a Mays hit in the rf corner. Would have tied the game.

Roger Maris did have a good arm but not on that day in 1962 he didn't. The Giants were not aware of it.

Maris had a sore shoulder which the Yankees kept quiet. To compensate, 2B Bobby Richardson was going out further into RF to take Roger's throws.

In addition, prior to that game the SanFrancisco area had a great deal of rain. The outfield was soaked. May's hit to RF was slowed down drastically by the wet ground, allowing Maris to get over and cut it off before it got into the corner. Richardson came well out onto the OF grass to take the throw from Roger and wheeled to throw home. But Matty was held at 3B.

I've often felt that the Giants should have sent Alou home. He was fast, Richardson would have had to make a longer than usual relay and would have had to be perfect on the throw to nail Alou.

Roger did a good job but was helped considerably by wet ground and Richardson covering for his sore shoulder.

That half inning is still the most exciting inning of baseball I have ever witnessed in my life.

[yanks0714]

Having seen a lot of games from the 1950's on, I'd have to throw in Henry Aaron, not counting his last years. He was not quite as strong as Clemente but more accurate. I once saw him charge a line drive one-hopper then gun it to first. No base hit.

Thank you. Among all the great things Aaron could do on a ball field, his throwing has been totally forgotten about. He had a very good, strong, accurate throw....and like Al Kaline didn't feel the need to show it off as much as that guy in Pittsburgh.

[yanks0714]

[

QUOTE=Buzzaldrin]Cannot understand why anyone would not have Willie Mays near the top of that list.  That 300 footer to take out Cox during the 51 pennant drive is just as memorable as "the throw" after "the catch" off Vic Wertz.  Wertz hit the ball 450 feet, and Mays returned it to the infield after the catch before either runner could take a base.  Arms don't get stronger than that.

I need to clarify something here. When Vic Wertz hit that shot that Willie Mays turned into the 'The Catch and The Throw', there were two runners on base. Larry Doby was on 2B and Al Rosen was on 1B.

Doby did, in fact, advance on the play. Rosen had to hustle back to 1B to avoid being doubled up. The feeling was that with the ball hit so deep in the Polo Grounds, Mays' momentum carrying him even further, the turn and throw, and with Doby having good speed he may well have advanced TWo bases. Willie's throw held Rosen at 1B thereby preserving a pitchers best friend, the force play.

A humorous part, long forgotten, about this whole thing was the pitcher Don Liddle. Libble had been brought into the game to face the LH'ed hitting Wertz. On Liddle's first pitch Wertz crushed it. Willie caught the ball and made a great throw. Durocher came out to remove Liddle as the next hitter was RH'ed. When Leo got to the mound to remove him, Liddle said to Leo, "Well, I got my man Leo". Yeah, right. All it took was 1 pitch, hammered into deep CF at the Polo Grounds at that, and an incredible catch and even more incredible throw by Willie. Yep, Liddle dfid his job allright.