2005 Steelers and 1960 Pirates.

[eddiejc1]

Hi! I'm not a Bucs fan, but I'm sick of waiting to hear
that MLB is going to accept or reject the new stadium
lease for the Nats. So I'm posting this question that I
think you would be interested in.

How would you compare the 1960 Bucs to the 2005 Steelers?
I was thinking about how the game totals for the Steelers in
this years Super Bowl was that of a losing team, and I immediately
compared them to the 1960 Pirates. The Pirates were blown out
badly in all three of their losses yet managed to win the Series.
(It is the only World Series where a player from the losing team
was voted MVP.) It occured to me that both these teams were from
Pittsburgh, so you guys would be the best ones to compare them...

Eddie Cunningham

[unfinished_business]

normally you shouldn't compare one football-game with a 7-game-series of baseball!

have you heard about BIG POINTS in Tennis?
it's pretty much about delivering when it really counts.
The Pirates won all the close games in '60 and the Yankees blew em away in the other three.

The Seahawks had some nice drives until they got into deep Steeler's Territory (30yard line)
and when you count out the first quarter the Steelers were definately the better Team.

[KCGHOST]

The 1960 Pirates beat an absolute juggernaut of a team in the 1960 Yankees. The 2005 SeaHawks wouldn't have won a single division in the AFC and probably wouldn't even have made the playoffs.

[LouGehrig]

The 1960 Yankees didn't become a juggernaut until 1961.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The 1960 Pirates beat an absolute juggernaut of a team in the 1960 Yankees. The 2005 SeaHawks wouldn't have won a single division in the AFC and probably wouldn't even have made the playoffs.

Huh? So I guess the solid win against the Colts was a mirage? They were 3-1 against the AFC in 2005.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The 1960 Yankees didn't become a juggernaut until 1961.

The 1961 Yanks are so overrated.

[BeatEmBucs]

Huh? So I guess the solid win against the Colts was a mirage? They were 3-1 against the AFC in 2005.

Ooooh beating quality Super Bowl contenders like the Texans and Titans. That Colt game wasn't much as Indy had already wrapped up home field, and their coach clearly had other things on his mind (That was the week James Dungy killed himself) so it wasn't like the Seahawks were facing the Colts at 100%.

As for comparing the 60 Pirates to the '05 Steelers it really isn't much of a comparison, as the Steelers have been perennial contenders, and the whole thing about the "first 6 seed to win the Super Bowl" was a bit overblown as the Steelers lost 2 of their 5 games this season thanks to a backup QB. The '05 Steelers were just as strong as the '04 team that went 15-1 and lost the AFC Championship to the Patriots, just that they had a worse regular season record, And everybody I know is gonna remember the '05 season much more than the '04 campaign because of what happened in the playoffs. As for the 1960 Pirates, it was the peak of the long climb back from the abyss they were in thru the early 50's (3 consecutive 100+ loss seasons and 6 concecutive 90+ loss seasons, not even the current doldrums were ever that bad, despite what some may say) as the young stars of the team like Maz and Clemente were starting to come into their own as superstars, the pitching finally came together with Friend,Haddix,Vern Law, and Face in the bullpen. And while it did take a long climb to get to the top of the National League in 1960, they didn't have as rough of a road as the Steelers did, especially since there was no Division Series or NLCS back then. And the Steelers were favored by Vegas to win SB 40, in spite of the seeding disparity. I may not have been alive in 1960, but I think it was a safe bet that nobody had the Pirates favored against the Yankees in 1960, especially since the Yanks had won the American League 12 of the previous 15 years. The Pirates championship of 1960 was probably the least expected of the Championships won in Pittsburgh (with the Championships of the 71 and 79 Pirates closely behind) and while the Yanks dominated 3 games of that series, and the Seahawks had the statistical advantage in SB 40, all that matters is the team that scored the most points (or runs) in the final game!

[Letsgobucs!]

Huh? So I guess the solid win against the Colts was a mirage? They were 3-1 against the AFC in 2005.

No mirage, but if i do remember correctly, they had homefield advantage locked up, and peyton played what, one quarter? Anyone defending the seahawks as a good team I would listen to, but as a superbowl champ? No way. Steelers were not a 6 seed as it was, record wise, yes, but all their losses came from Tommy Maddox at QB or when Ben was still hurt. The Steelers played bad in the superbowl, but poor clock management/coaching/bad turnovers made the Seahawks play worse. Bad officiating is always going to come up, but the only bad call was the illegal block call on Hasselbeck. Offensive pass interference, you can't push off like that RIGHT in front of the back judge, yeah it was weak, but it still is a penalty. As for the holding, a holding could be called on probably 95% of NFL snaps, they just call the most obvious ones, I didn't disagree with that call either. All I care about now is getting that 6th ring!

As for comparing the '60 Bucs to the '05 Steelers, no comparison. As I said before, the '05 Steelers were not really a 6 seed. They had less holes than last year, and no Plex to drop passes. They were just solid in every aspect. The '60 Bucs came from way behind as the Steelers, but were one of the biggest underdog winners in history. It gives me chills every time I walk past what is left of the Forbes Field wall, and I read the plaque every time I walk by there, the spot where Maz's historic homerun cleared the wall. I haven't been alive for a Pirate's championship, but I can only dream of the day when Pittsburgh is the city of champions once again.

[Seattle1]

How would you compare the 1960 Bucs to the 2005 Steelers?

Well, did the Pirates get tons of questionable breaks from the umps in every single critical game-changing situation in that World Series? That would be a similarity, but I doubt it's the case beacause the 2006 Super Bowl was just way over the top in that regard.

[Bucco Fanatic]

please man, dont start the ref thing again. The only bad call was the illegal block that wasnt called. Thats it. And it wasnt a game changing factor. And no team has the right to complain about refs more than the steelers after the colts game. Do you think the NFL wouldve admitted its mistake on the Polamalu interception..oh sorry, "incomplete pass" if the colts made that field goal and won??? nope...

[Seattle1]

please man, dont start the ref thing again. The only bad call was the illegal block that wasnt called. Thats it. And it wasnt a game changing factor. And no team has the right to complain about refs more than the steelers after the colts game. Do you think the NFL wouldve admitted its mistake on the Polamalu interception..oh sorry, "incomplete pass" if the colts made that field goal and won??? nope...

Well I don't really want to rehash the game again either but I'll point out two biggies (though there are countless others):

1. Darrell Jackson's touchdown in the 1st quarter should not have been called back on offensive pass interference, hands down. All of the announcers openly acknowledged that fact. Are you saying that you're smarter than Al Michaels, John Madden, Steve Young, Michael Irvin, and Chris Berman all rolled into one? Further, Hines Ward was committing real offensive pass interference all game long, including a blatant stiff-arm to the face mask of Kelly Herndon on a third-quarter 3rd-down catch. No call, inexplicably. The teams were held to two completely different standards.

2. Steelers RT Max Starks was illegally downfield prior to the 3rd and 28 pass in the 2nd quarter. Should have been a 5-yard penalty, 3rd and 33. No first down, no subsequent "touchdown run" by Big Ben. Steelers go into the locker room with a "0" on the board. Do they score in the second half? Maybe a consolation td or fg in the 4th quarter, but that's probably about it.

No, the only reason the Steelers won that game is because the officials were helping them every step of the way, all game long. Fact, not opinion.

[Bucco Fanatic]

I am smarter than those announcers because the presence of Madden automatically makes the rest of those guys stupid. The offensive pass interference you speak of in the endzone was the right call. When he pushed off you can actually see the steeler defender move..therefor..pass interference.

But anyhow, its over. Lets not dwell on it.

Great season by the seahawks.

[BeatEmBucs]

Further, Hines Ward was committing real offensive pass interference all game long, including a blatant stiff-arm to the face mask of Kelly Herndon on a third-quarter 3rd-down catch. No call, inexplicably. The teams were held to two completely different standards.

No, the only reason the Steelers won that game is because the officials were helping them every step of the way, all game long. Fact, not opinion.

Ahhh...vintage Seattle whine from February. I bet this whine gets better with age when the Seahawks fail to make the playoffs this year. Looks like somebody is trying to take that "no respect" comedy to the next level since Mr.Dangerfield passed to that great comedy club in the sky. So explain that expert clock management at the end of the first half, and late in the game? Or why nobody got a hand on Willie Parker on his record breaking run? Heck if not for our QB, and his lack of height on the pass that resulted in Seattle's only touchdown, the game is 24-3 or worse. How can anyone complain about officials when they LOST BY 11 POINTS. A field goal or TD, there MAY be a case, but not an 11 point game that could've been much worse. And considering what the Steelers had to deal with in Indy, bad officiating is a part of the game, Winners overcome, losers whine. If I chose to take the "Seattle Approach", I'd say the Bucs would be in first place right now if not for those bad umpring calls that have screwed our season.

[BossNoll]

Well I don't really want to rehash the game again either but I'll point out two biggies (though there are countless others):

1. Darrell Jackson's touchdown in the 1st quarter should not have been called back on offensive pass interference, hands down. All of the announcers openly acknowledged that fact. Are you saying that you're smarter than Al Michaels, John Madden, Steve Young, Michael Irvin, and Chris Berman all rolled into one? Further, Hines Ward was committing real offensive pass interference all game long, including a blatant stiff-arm to the face mask of Kelly Herndon on a third-quarter 3rd-down catch. No call, inexplicably. The teams were held to two completely different standards.

2. Steelers RT Max Starks was illegally downfield prior to the 3rd and 28 pass in the 2nd quarter. Should have been a 5-yard penalty, 3rd and 33. No first down, no subsequent "touchdown run" by Big Ben. Steelers go into the locker room with a "0" on the board. Do they score in the second half? Maybe a consolation td or fg in the 4th quarter, but that's probably about it.

No, the only reason the Steelers won that game is because the officials were helping them every step of the way, all game long. Fact, not opinion.

Here Seattle WHINER. Play with these FACTS for awhile>>>>>>

Blockers cannot use their hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an opponent in a manner that restricts movement as the play develops. Whether the hook is a complete circle is irrevelant.He held onto Haggans which is a penalty.The framework of the body doesn't matter if Haggans got grabbed, which he did. Jackson did extend his arm on defensive back Chris Hope. There's no denying that. And if you extend your arm directly in front of the back judge, you're going to get called for it -- especially if you're in the end zone!

Every week on NFL Total Acess, Mike Pereira reviews the controversial calls so when he clarified the penalties in the Super Bowl,it wasn't something he did for the first time.


In the AFC Championship Game, the Steelers had a touchdown called back on a illegal formation penalty (putting them at 2nd-and-13 at the 17), but they scored a touchdown the very next play. I understand the illegal formation wasn't viewed as a touch call, but they still bounced back and scored anyway. Seattle failed to do this and still had the ball 1st-and-20 at the 26. The fact that the Seahawks gained minus three yards on the next three plays can't be blamed on the refs.

Matt Hasselbeck completed a pass to Jerramy Stevens to the one-yard line only to have it called back because of holding. ABC made it seem like it was a questionable call by not mentioning the flag until after the play was over, when it was called immediately.IOW,the flag was thrown before the pass was completed.The Seahawks still had the ball on the 29 with over 11 minutes to go trailing by four points. The game was in their hands and they blew it.

The Patriots won 2 Superbowls while being outgained in yards and first downs by the Eagles and Rams.
The Cowboys beat the '95 Steelers though the Cowboys were outgained in yards,had less time of possession and fewer first downs.

Converting a miracle 3rd and 28 into a first and goal, breaking a 75 yard TD run, and running a trick play by no means says the Steeler's offense was playing well that night. I thought Seattle's offense played pretty good the whole game, minus the end of both halves. Its 60 minutes in the NFL,not 56 minutes though.

If i was a such homer,i would never have admitted that i thought Ben didn't get in,Hasselbeck called for an illegal block was wrong and that Joey Porter got away with a horse collar tackle.The refs missed some calls imo but what we're talking about they didn't miss.


1. The Refs didn't give up the longest run in SB history...Seattle's defense did.

2. The Refs didn't bite on a 43 yd trick play, Randle to Ward for a TD...Seattle's defense did.

3. The Refs didn't allow Ben to scramble around on a 3rd and 28 and complete a long pass to the 2 yd. line...Seattle's defense did.

4. The Refs didn't miss two field goals, that was Seattle.

5. The Refs didn't fail to step out of bounds late in the 1st half to stop the clock in Pitt territory in a crunch time situation...Seattle's offense did.

6. The Refs didn't let the 1st half clock tick down from 48 seconds all the way down to 13 seconds before finally running their next play at Pitt's 36 yd line...Seattle's offense did.

7. And on this play, 3rd down, 53 yds away from a FG, it wasn't the Refs who tried and failed to go deep for a TD rather than a safer 5 yrd play and timeout setting up a much easier FG attempt....that, again, would be Seattle's offense.

8. The Refs didn't get confused by Pitt's zone defense and throw an INT...that would be Seattle's QB.

9. The Refs didn't let a little physical contact intimidate them from catching 4 very catchable passes...that would be the Seattle TE Jeremy Stevens.

10. With approx. 20 seconds left in the game, knowing they need a TD and FG, in no particular order, and in easy FG range on 4th down, it wasn't the Refs who ignored the FG and elected to throw up a prayer trying for a TD...that AGAIN would be Seattle.

11. The Refs didn't constantly punt deep into the end zone, repeatedly giving Pitt the ball at the 20 yd line...that of course was Seattle.Opportunities to pin the Steelers really deep should have been capitalized.

12. It wasn't the Refs who received a Christmas gift wrapped easy INT lobbed in perfect position to return deep into Pitt territory...the lucky beneficiary of that break would be Seattle.

13. It wasn't the Refs who got a break when a Steeler DB dropped an easy int early in the game...that too would be a break for Seattle.

14. It wasn't the Refs who caught a break when a Steeler WR dropped a very catchable TD pass...that break again would go to Seattle.

15. It wasn't the scapegoat Refs that received a break when a WR caught the ball, turned, stepped, was hit hard enough to cause a fumble, and then ruled INCOMPLETE...that would be of course, another chance for Seattle.
(this was an interesting call considering that after Troy's famous overruled Int, the NFL stated that it WAS a catch. If so, than this definitely WAS a catch)

16. The Refs weren't the ones who caught a break when at the conclusion of a 2nd qtr play, as a Pitt DE was walking away, the Seattle Center blindsided the defenseless player, leveling him to the ground. This mysteriously unseen crime was again another break for Seattle.

17. It wasn't the Refs who got a break when Pitt QB Big Ben was blocked in the back as he pursued the DB who he'd tossed an int to...that again would go to Seattle.

18. It wasn't the Refs who stopped Seattle RB Alexander in a few key situations.... That would be the Pittsburgh Steelers.

19. It wasn't the Refs who converted many of their 3rd downs yet stopped their opponent on 3rd downs.The Seahawks had one penalty on third down.

And that is why all of this talk of a ruined game and a undeserved win are foolish. There were many, many chances for Seattle to win that game. If they had not dropped so many passes, missed a couple of field goals, managed the clock with a little bit of skill, been able to place a punt within the twenty just once while instead had four touchbacks, made a few key tackles, not bit on a fake — if they had been able to do any number of things, the game would have turned out very differently. But they didn't, and they lost.


It's not as if the Seahawks played so great and barely lost. They lost by 11.

Remember - no one ever remembers the Super Bowl loser unless they are interesting, like Buffalo and the Vikings losing so many. Think about it, the Niners barely beat the Bengals in 1982. No one remembers that Bengal team,except Cinncy fans.


Mike Holmgren STILL can't get over the fact that HE lost the game for his team. He was completely outcoached by a coach that had a history of losing in big games. How's that feel, Mike? Does it make you want to quit the competition committee?


I can't twist the rules(self-explanatory) only bring them up.The only question is should they have been called,not that they didn't happen.

Next time you want to play with the Big boys, try starting off small first like maybe your buddies in Frisco for instance