Advise requested

[Ohfor]

Note: Machine was throwing most everything at the letters. And, he's not a letters kind of guy. Likes to "fall" into a load for pitches waist to knees.

Son home from college for the weekend. Needed to straighten him out after several weeks of "stand tall" "hands to the ball" from his college coach. Coach seems like a nice guy. A nice uninformed guy.

If you're looking SteveE, does Brandon demonstrate the hooking mechanism we've talked about on the phone?

Also, the type of hit below shows up all too often. He doesn't roll over but he gets on top of the ball. Slightly out front. Looks to me like if he hit the ball a frame or two sooner in the swing, it would be well struck. So.....wait?



Is this a swing plane problem? A timing issue? A mechanical flaw?

His "forward by turning" move is more noticeable in the first clip. Is this a possible reason for being out front. Not as much time used in the load changes the timing and the direction of the swing.

BTW...see that knob going back toward the catcher......I asked him to work the bottom hand under the top so buster can feel at home. Hehe

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Ohfor, the vids aren't showing up. Just little boxes with a red X in them.

[Ursa Major]

Ohfor, the pics didn't come through because of address errors. I've taken the liberty of correcting them here.

Swing #1:


Swing #2:

[Ursa Major]

Also, the type of hit below shows up all too often. He doesn't roll over but he gets on top of the ball. Slightly out front.

Ohfor, comparing the bottom (more effective) swing with the top one, it seems he fans open his front hip and straightens/locks the front leg a little early. Added to that is his tendency to lean back toward the catcher slightly, all of which brings him up off the ball, which may be a cause of those groundouts. Combined with his no-stride approach and his minimal pre-load, the knee locking seems to effectively stop the rear hip rotation before contact in the later swing. (This lack of full rotation really seems to show up in brndn010406t.gif in the same directory.) His back hip, rather than taking a rotational route around to the front ("swinging the gate") goes straight forward (or maybe even a hair away from home plate), because the front knee is taking his front hip away from the plate.

In figuring out the correct address for the pics, I took the liberty of looking at some of the other gifs in the directory to try to get a sense of where else his swing has been. These issues seem to arise in his game swings as well, but no more than in the cage, which shows he's a pretty disciplined guy.

His posture seems okay for someone with a "stay erect" coach, but, as you say, all the pitches were up in the strike zone, so it's hard to know what he does with low pitches.

My sense is that if he were to delay just a hair the opening/straightening of the front hip, the knee straightening consequences would be drastically reduced, even if he still did it. One way to do it might be to pre-load the front hips more. If you look at the brndn010506c.gif clip, he gives a little more counterrotation/loading with the front hip, and he stays down on the ball better and hits a laser, rendering insignificant the damage from any knee straightening. In a sense, he's got a little more of "Pujols' anus" going for him, and he hits more like Albert too.

I also sense that there's some disconnection of his "box" and bat dragging in some swings (i.e., the rear elbow is leading his hands), but I'll leave that to others to dissect.

I also sneaked a peek at his pitching. I liked that June 29 "stretchfront" clip; #2 on the opposing team had his rear end half way to the dugout by the time of your young man's release, and needed a another 7 inches on his bat to get to that pitch. But, more importantly, someone's got to tell the umpire behind him that those shorts make for a really bad look.

[LClifton]

Ohfor, the pics didn't come through because of address errors. I've taken the liberty of correcting them here.

Ursa,
These are still not coming up....??

-LClifton

[LClifton]

BRANDON'S SHOULDERS.bmpBRANDON'S SHOULDERS2.bmp
There is something that I've always like very much about Brandon's swing.
His shoulders. My belief is that when the shoulders get to this position he has done several things right.

I personally like his posture, I think he tilts and loads well. He does this pretty seamlessly. Starts tall,the pitch is coming, he tilts. His swing has a nice "rythym" to it.

Ohfer, based on one of these swings being the one that hit the ball well and one that didn't. My thought is that it is a timing issue. My suspicion is that if we saw a side view of these 2 swings one would just be early.

There are only 2 things that I think he could work on.

Finish rotating , I find myself wanting to give him one last push to finish or have a more complete rotation. I know that if the pitch is a little "away" rotation tends to be less complete.

The other is, (could be off here) but there is a hint of the back elbow dropping as ONE of the initial moves, but I don't think it ends up "wedged" against his side.
The other initial move looks good to my eye, meaning he appears to have a good move from the middle at initiation, pretty much moves as a unit.
Does he shift his middle forward? I can't tell from the back view.
I know it seems odd to mention 2 initial moves but they seem to happen together so I don't feel he becomes too disconnected. My point, I would just watch the back elbow.

Sincerely,
LClifton

[Ohfor]

Here's a side view of a workout over Christmas.

He hit this ball very well.



Some background. Not a prospect. Just loves to play. Although Brandon is closing the gap, he was a year or so behind his age group in hitting development. He was a terrible hitter in little league and as a high school freshman he could barely hit the ball in soft toss. Long story short he hit .402 his senior year. He still didn't hit with much power but developed an ability to sqare the bat to the ball and hit line drives into left center for base hits....occasionally a double.

LClifton, you've mentioned something that made the biggest difference in his quest to learn. First and foremost we "sold out" to the fact that the bat must be perpendicular to the spine. Therefore, the shoulder position you talk about. Relatively easy concept to understand and to implement. Then we sold out to the fact that the swing is from the center out, not ground up. Those two things, although not perfect are what he does best. We've had our struggles as to just how to connect the bat to the body. But if we go back 4 years to the start of this journey, in our basement hitting lab, against the Personal Pitcher and Swing-A-Way, the single most effective thing that got him headed in the right direction was to make his first move a turn of his belly button to the pitcher. Regardless of what the bat did, and we struggled with how to get the barrel to the ball, he would always turn from his center once he understood.

Looking back, his learning to turn from "the center" and keeping the bat perpendicular to the spine, made everything else "experimental". In other words, since he had a rough understanding of where the energy came from, he made sure it came from there and experimented on just how to hold his arms, how high, how far back, how much tilt etc etc. And, very small variations made big differences.

And, I wouldn't be posting if everything were perfect. He has a ways to go. We hope his clock doesn't run out too soon.

Might sound easy or hard depending on your point of view but starting with the engine made it easier to experiment with connection.



This is a high school single to left center before we understood the "forward by turning" and the importance of posture.

Comparing the two you can see the power difference. He can drive the ball now. Check out the lower body differences. Thank you Steve E.

Now if I could get him to pay attention to details like not standing closed, not standing with duck feet he'd reduce the number of hurdles he has to clear.

[LClifton]

Ohfer,

Don't see anything with the elbow from this view. (goes where it should)
I think he loads better (better tilt also) in the original set of clips.
Is this something that you've worked on since December and do you see the same?

Respectfully,
LClifton

[swingbuster]

Ohfer

I asked him to work the bottom hand under the top so buster can feel at home. Hehe

Bottom hand under top working is as Arod does here. I think Brandon, like most LH batters, is a committed one planer

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/i...0#entry4067318

What swing exhibits a scap load? Looks like his lead elbow is behind his belly button and he has formed two 90 degree angles with lead elbow and wrist forearm in the preswing. You owe me $150.00

[wogdoggy]

kids gotta smooth swing ohfor.

[Ohfor]

Ohfer,

Don't see anything with the elbow from this view. (goes where it should)
I think he loads better (better tilt also) in the original set of clips.
Is this something that you've worked on since December and do you see the same?

Respectfully,
LClifton

The "falling" load you see has been added since the December clip. He really likes it. Helps his timing and helps him get to the launch position and launch with some rhythm.

Thanks SteveE.

[LClifton]

And, I wouldn't be posting if everything were perfect. He has a ways to go. We hope his clock doesn't run out too soon.

I'm confident of one thing, he will be fine.

Might sound easy or hard depending on your point of view but starting with the engine made it easier to experiment with connection.

Great advice.

Ohfer, one more thing hasn't it been fun to spend that kind of time with your kid?

You and he should be very proud.

Sincerely,
LClifton

p.s. Can he play pool?

[Ursa Major]

Ohfor, you mentioned that Brandon hit .402 "as a senior". So, what is he doing now? Is he in college? Playing college ball? In any case, it's impressive that he made those strides to excel in high school ball. It must have been a gratifying journey for both of you.

Appreciate your passing along the success of the "perpendicular" and "hit from the middle" cues. It makes a lot of sense.

p.s. Can he play pool?

And does he shoot righthanded or lefthanded? I hope he has a similar experience to that of my own freshman year in college, where my roommate's inflated opinion of both his pool and poker skills kept me in beer money for the year.

[Ohfor]

He can not play pool worth a lick. Wife's goal was to not let him turn into another me. So, he hasn't spent much time at the business. He did work there as a cook for a while.

Poker is another story. He loves poker. Has won some local tournaments and is doing fine in the college baseball team poker nights.

[Ohfor]

Ohfer, one more thing, hasn't it been fun to spend that kind of time with your kid?...

Simply one of the best experiences in my life.

I really miss the "Dad, you wanna go hit." or "Dad, you wanna throw."

This past Thursday he called and said his baseball team was getting the weekend off since games start this coming weekend and they'll be hard at it every weekend until school ends.

So, he asked for me to drive the 2 hours to pick him up so he could come home and see some friends, attend his school's winter homecoming and sell some raffle tickets for his team. Then drive him back on Sunday. He thought he was imposing. I jumped at the chance to get him so we could "work out". It's our special thing that we do together.

There is no better feeling than when he hits a double in the gap, slides into second and looks for me immediately. We both know that we did what others are not willing to do. I say we, because I believed for him until he was capable of believing for himself.

We simply kept trying when it appeared there was no reason to continue.

[Ursa Major]

Ohfor said: He thought he was imposing. I jumped at the chance to get him so we could "work out". It's our special thing that we do together.

There is no better feeling than when he hits a double in the gap, slides into second and looks for me immediately. We both know that we did what others are not willing to do. I say we, because I believed for him until he was capable of believing for himself.

I think I'm becoming verklempt. Talk amongst yourselves... Sniff...

My son and I stayed after his practice this evening so I could hit him some extra grounders, and then we stopped and picked up a fruit smoothie on the way home and talked about his batting practice session. (His best ever...) He came home and worked on his homework with my wife, who ragged on my heinie after he got to bed for not bringing him home right as practice ended so he could right on his homework. I nodded, "Yes, dear."

Given the same dilemma next time, what choice do you think I'll make?

[hiddengem]

Simply one of the best experiences in my life.

I really miss the "Dad, you wanna go hit." or "Dad, you wanna throw."

This past Thursday he called and said his baseball team was getting the weekend off since games start this coming weekend and they'll be hard at it every weekend until school ends.

So, he asked for me to drive the 2 hours to pick him up so he could come home and see some friends, attend his school's winter homecoming and sell some raffle tickets for his team. Then drive him back on Sunday. He thought he was imposing. I jumped at the chance to get him so we could "work out". It's our special thing that we do together.

There is no better feeling than when he hits a double in the gap, slides into second and looks for me immediately. We both know that we did what others are not willing to do. I say we, because I believed for him until he was capable of believing for himself.

We simply kept trying when it appeared there was no reason to continue.

.............

[hiddengem]

Simply one of the best experiences in my life.

I really miss the "Dad, you wanna go hit." or "Dad, you wanna throw."

This past Thursday he called and said his baseball team was getting the weekend off since games start this coming weekend and they'll be hard at it every weekend until school ends.

So, he asked for me to drive the 2 hours to pick him up so he could come home and see some friends, attend his school's winter homecoming and sell some raffle tickets for his team. Then drive him back on Sunday. He thought he was imposing. I jumped at the chance to get him so we could "work out". It's our special thing that we do together.

There is no better feeling than when he hits a double in the gap, slides into second and looks for me immediately. We both know that we did what others are not willing to do. I say we, because I believed for him until he was capable of believing for himself.

We simply kept trying when it appeared there was no reason to continue.

Makes me shed a tear. Never miss an opportunity to spend time with your kids. I lost my #1 fan, my father to a sudden heart attack my rookie season. My last Fathers day gift to him was the baseball I hit for my first professional hit..A grand Slam.

This one was for you "pops"

[Ohfor]

Now for one of those "other" moments....

First college at bat.....strike out.

It ain't all glory.



I post this for one reason. To show that all the good that is accomplished in bp is difficult to carry to the game when under the stress of high quality pitching.

He completely lost concentration. Felt a need for momentum so he strides which makes him late and he never executes the "forward by turning" move which would have eliminated the "need" because it would have filled the need. When the go signal came everything was out of position to execute the good swing so he used what was available...........his arms.

The same hitter........two different environments........two different results.

He also got to do this for an inning.



Sorry about the fence in the way. Just too many players, fans, tarps etc in the way.

[Erik]

Now for one of those "other" moments....

First college at bat.....strike out.

It ain't all glory.



I post this for one reason. To show that all the good that is accomplished in bp is difficult to carry to the game when under the stress of high quality pitching.

He completely lost concentration. Felt a need for momentum so he strides which makes him late and he never executes the "forward by turning" move which would have eliminated the "need" because it would have filled the need. When the go signal came everything was out of position to execute the good swing so he used what was available...........his arms.

The same hitter........two different environments........two different results.

He also got to do this for an inning.



Sorry about the fence in the way. Just too many players, fans, tarps etc in the way.

ohfor,
I noticed in Brandons clips that he really doesn't get a lot out of his hip rotation hitting. The hips don't explode open. His upper body does most of the rotation. I think he needs to keep his front(even with the belly button) elbow this will help create batspeed. I'm sure you know this already.

EL,

[Jake Patterson]

This one was for you "pops"

Dave - Nice story. Thanks for sharing.

[pgibbons]

I believed for him until he was capable of believing for himself.

We simply kept trying when it appeared there was no reason to continue.

Most excellent.

[ssarge]

Makes me shed a tear. Never miss an opportunity to spend time with your kids. I lost my #1 fan, my father to a sudden heart attack my rookie season. My last Fathers day gift to him was the baseball I hit for my first professional hit..A grand Slam.

This one was for you "pops"

BOTH your accounts make me shed a tear.


Baseball has always been very emotional for me, because my dad had such a passionate love affair w/ the game. He would drive for hours to watch his grandkids play in some meaningless LL game. But it wasn't meaningless to him. The day after he died, my eldest hit his first ever HR. The ball - w/ his dedication to "gramps" is still on his shelf. "I know you saw this looking down, gramps, and it was for you."


My dad always wanted to go to Cooperstown, but never made it. When I went, I was just overwhelmed by emotion. What would it have meant to have been there with him?


I'm sure many people have similar remembrances tied to other sports or other activities. But there is something about baseball that seems to invoke very special times - and build special memories - between dads and their kids.

And I'm not sure why. Do you think it could be that the game is SO hard? And that it is so rooted not in success, but in failure? A sport where a 30% success rate makes you a star? It seems Richard hinted at this. . . .of all the many lessons I learned from my father, his quiet guidance and confidence that I COULD accomplish the most difficult feat in all of sports - at least occasionally - was a standout.

And so was he.


I'm very pleased for you, Richard.

Best,

Scott

[swingbuster]

Ofhers best all -time post

I post this for one reason. To show that all the good that is accomplished in bp is difficult to carry to the game when under the stress of high quality pitching.

I get amuzed at the detailed breakdown of clips as I spend most of my time at practice or games where the above statement is the real world. Perfect swings on perfect pitches are rare squared.

THat is why I coach the set up and preswing...after that your own your own guys.

That clip is what happens in games as Ofher points out. My sons 240 at bats in HS showed me that and I haven't forgotten it.

My son used to get caught back there too at times...pick the front foot up and put it down with no shift. Your back side will collapse as the bat passed through the zone

I am probably the last person you want any observation from but all or our kids have problems with the following...his cage swing stance and his HS swing stance were considerably more narrow than the college game swing.

It is harder to shift/ carry whatever you want to call it when you get too wide...it seems to restrict hip movement and athletism. I am constantly bringing their feet closer...feet under arm pits for many. An easy set up fix.......I believe that most bad things that occur in any swing happen to the batter because of a bad set up or what he does as the pitcher breaks over to release.





Hang in there...that stuff ain't easy

[tom.guerry]

Buster-

I agree to a point. You need to get the swingpreparation right and then it has a chance of unfolding as things speed up. BAckward chaining is less effective/faces more variability in hitting than throwing.

Still, you need an idea of how are adjustments ideally made,always expecting the swing to be dependent on the adjustment you make.

In retrosct,when you fail, then you have something that helps learn from it what to do differently.

I alos "speculate" that the transfer to game stress is easier with more upper body emphasis than lower body, but that is mostly just my bias more than likely.I think certainly bathead/sweetspot control is better with attention to arm action,but that can be mitigated by hot bat technology.