Frank Thomas for HOF?! HA!

[yanks0714]

I second that!!

So you second that Bill James is a 'moron'??? This coming from the guy who wants to have Dave McNally enshrined in the HOF!!!

I don't agree with everything Bill James writes but he's far from a moron. He's made the effort to take the evaluation of players to another level. Is he right all the time? Absolutely not. But he has provided us with food for thought with his metrics.

Almost all of the people who criticize James as a 'moron' simply do not understand what it is he is trying to do.

[538280]

I second that!!

Man, you're losing a lot of respect from me. As far as I'm concerned, you know why you think Bill James is a moron? Because he's the guy who crashes down on all your cult favorites and proves the truth-that they're not all that great. Guys like Dave McNally. People provide perfectly logical arguments for why he's not in the HOF, and all you claim is "Who cares?", which is basically another way of saying that you KNOW he's a HOFer and you don't care what the objective evidence is. People do the same things with Gil Hodges all the time. It really, really, really annoys me.

[yanks0714]

Man, you're losing a lot of respect from me. As far as I'm concerned, you know why you think Bill James is a moron? Because he's the guy who crashes down on all your cult favorites and proves the truth-that they're not all that great. Guys like Dave McNally. People provide perfectly logical arguments for why he's not in the HOF, and all you claim is "Who cares?", which is basically another way of saying that you KNOW he's a HOFer and you don't care what the objective evidence is. People do the same things with Gil Hodges all the time. It really, really, really annoys me.

What did you expect....he's 'Goofy'.

[Chisox]

Ah, Honus Wagner must be turning in his grave right about now with you using his name like that...to consider Thomas a first baseman is ridiculous...how long was he a first baseman as opposed to DH?

Is Ernie Banks a SS or Rod Carew a 2B?

[Mike D.]

Is Ernie Banks a SS or Rod Carew a 2B?

Thomas played 971 games at 1b, 960 at DH (to date)

Carew played 1184 games at 1b and 1130 at 2b, and a few elsewhere. He's in the HOF officially as a 2b.

Banks played 1259 games at 1b, 1125 at sS, and a few elsewhere. He's in the HOF officially as a SS.

Of course, even if you look at Thomas as a DH, not a first baseman...he automatically becomes the best DH ever, and a more than worthy inductee (well ahead of Edgar Martinez).

[Chisox]

Thomas played 971 games at 1b, 960 at DH (to date)

Carew played 1184 games at 1b and 1130 at 2b, and a few elsewhere. He's in the HOF officially as a 2b.

Banks played 1259 games at 1b, 1125 at sS, and a few elsewhere. He's in the HOF officially as a SS.

Of course, even if you look at Thomas as a DH, not a first baseman...he automatically becomes the best DH ever, and a more than worthy inductee (well ahead of Edgar Martinez).

You know that, and I know that. I was wondering if the futurehalloffamer knew that.

I really find very interesting when people talk like Thomas has to be a DH, but automatically put Banks at short and Rod at 2nd. Makes me wonder.

Actually, Edgar comes out third now, behind Molitor and Baines, but that's me, and fora different thread.

[Mike D.]

You know that, and I know that. I was wondering if the futurehalloffamer knew that.

Sorry...I see a question asked about baseball, and if know the answer, I just have to throw it out there. It's a sickness.

I really find very interesting when people talk like Thomas has to be a DH, but automatically put Banks at short and Rod at 2nd. Makes me wonder.

Very true. Also, why is being a DH a bad thing if your bat still puts you in the Hall?

Actually, Edgar comes out third now, behind Molitor and Baines, but that's me, and fora different thread.

I agree on Molitor...haven't compared Baines to Martinez in depth, but don't think either are HOF worthy.

[Captain Cold Nose]

You know that, and I know that. I was wondering if the futurehalloffamer knew that.

I really find very interesting when people talk like Thomas has to be a DH, but automatically put Banks at short and Rod at 2nd. Makes me wonder.

Actually, Edgar comes out third now, behind Molitor and Baines, but that's me, and fora different thread.

Banks and Carew built their reputatations at short and second, then moved, same as Stan Musial playing so much at first. But everyone thinks of him as a Left fielder because that's where his stardom blossomed.
Thomas, of course, had his best years at First.

[Blackout]

Well, much like Thomas, Bagwell was injured quite ofter, but Bagwell STILL has more HRs than Thomas and was actually able to PLAY when his team finally made the WS. I know its ridiculous to compare HR totals, but batting is really all you can discuss when Frank Thomas is the issue.

so because Bagwell was healthy in October 2005 and put up crap numbers in the World Series, that makes him better than Thomas?


Thomas is #14 all time in OPS+, thats a Hall of Famer right there.

[Goofy]

Man, you're losing a lot of respect from me. As far as I'm concerned, you know why you think Bill James is a moron? Because he's the guy who crashes down on all your cult favorites and proves the truth-that they're not all that great. Guys like Dave McNally. People provide perfectly logical arguments for why he's not in the HOF, and all you claim is "Who cares?",

hehe ya mean ya had respect for me at one point? I just am not a Bill James fan thats all maybe moron is too strong a word to agree with. I just started that thread about McNally to see what people would say didn't expect such a harsh reaction though. Most of my replies were to the replies to it that tried to show that the reasoning was flawed. Like the reply that said he only won most of his games because of the defense behind him. Well every pitcher does the same thing so that would point out that no pitcher should be in according to that way of thinking. Now I know deep down that McNally should be on the outside looking in list really but to me he should be near the top of that list. I don't think I ever said who cares was just pointing out that all the arguments that everyone used would be the same for every pitcher.

[538280]

Like the reply that said he only won most of his games because of the defense behind him. Well every pitcher does the same thing so that would point out that no pitcher should be in according to that way of thinking.

You still don't seem to really understand what that reply meant. It had nothing to do with McNally's wins, rather his run prevention. The argument was that McNally had a great defense behind him, so that defense may save him a few runs, making his ERA better. As it is, his ERA is only 6% better than league so it's not like he has much fudging room with that. Then defense independant ERA was cited, which basically just proved the point that McNally was indeed being helped by the defense behind him.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

Ridiculous thread. Someone with these kind of Numbers deserves to be in on the first ballot.

http://baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml

Twotime MVP( should of won atleast one more), career .427 OBP, jesus christ, he's among the greatest hitters ever.

First ballot, hands down.

[cavalier1968]

Thomas is the best hitting 1B since World War II. Not a Hall of Famer? Okay, if your Hall of Fame has about 50 players total, you could leave him out.

A beautiful post.....

Cav

[chicagowhitesox1173]

I meant JOE JACKSON, not Reggie.

Secondly, I put Sosa and Palmeiro ahead of Thomas, S-word aside, because of their homerun totals, even though there are no career levels that guarantee entry.

I-Rod is the premier catcher of this time, even ahead of Piazza, whereas Thomas is among some good 1st basemen like Palmeiro, Thome and Bagwell. McGwire of course is ahead of him, and will get in first because he is already retired.

I know this is a old post but if Palmero and Sosa never got involved with steroids I wonder if they would be considered better than Frank Thomas. (had they put up same numbers) which is doubtful..

I would say at this point there is no doubt Frank Thomas is a hofer and both Palmero and Sosa woulda been but I think Frank Thomas was still better than those two. Even with thier inflated numbers, I might be biased because of the steroids and being a Whitesox fan too though.

[dominik]

I think he is a HOFer. He declined early due to injuries and is probably the worst defender that ever played in the majors but he was a truely dominant hitter and despite all his injuries he still made it to 500.

If he had a healthy career he would have probably hit 650 and would have been one of the best hitters ever.

Edit: wow I just realized that this thread is ancient.

[fenrir]

One of the hitters ever, and a top 20 player just based on his hitting alone (seriously).

[chicagowhitesox1173]

I think he is a HOFer. He declined early due to injuries and is probably the worst defender that ever played in the majors but he was a truely dominant hitter and despite all his injuries he still made it to 500.

If he had a healthy career he would have probably hit 650 and would have been one of the best hitters ever.

Edit: wow I just realized that this thread is ancient.

Yeah sorry, I know it's pretty old. I like reading the older threads. Alot of these old threads are pretty fun to read.

I would think most anyone who viewed Thomas as not being a hofer in 2006 has since changed thier minds. Back in 2006 I can honestly say I woulda said no to Frank Thomas for hof because he didnt have 500 homeruns. I have changed my views on that kinda thinking now.

[davewashere]

I would have said "yes" in 2006 without the milestones and an emphatic "yes" today with the milestones. 500+ HR, 1000+ XBH, and a 156 OPS+ would probably get a yes vote from me even if he had played his entire career as a DH. Frank Thomas was a terrible first baseman, but not everyone in the Hall of Fame had a great glove. I'll be disappointed in the voters if Frank Thomas doesn't get in on the first ballot.

[J W]

I respect your nostalgia Chisox but, did you really have to dig up this mind-numbing thread? O.o

To answer your question, I believe Frank Thomas would be considered by the majority as superior to both Palmeiro and Sosa whether the latter were clean or not. Thomas is simply put one of the best hitters of all time. The only reason why he is not considered one of the best players of all time is because he was such a butcher with the glove.

[Freakshow]

Statistically, here are the top 20 hitters in MLB history, combining quality and quantity.

55+ Batting Wins, 148+ OPS+, 1600+ Runs Created

Rk           Player BtWins OPS+   RC    PA From   To
1         Babe Ruth 129.87  206 2718 10618 1914 1935
2       Barry Bonds 122.33  181 2892 12606 1986 2007
3           Ty Cobb 109.88  168 2517 13077 1905 1928
4      Ted Williams 109.83  190 2382  9788 1939 1960
5       Stan Musial  93.95  159 2562 12717 1941 1963
6        Hank Aaron  92.01  155 2552 13941 1954 1976
7        Lou Gehrig  89.71  178 2233  9663 1923 1939
8      Tris Speaker  87.39  157 2152 11987 1907 1928
9    Rogers Hornsby  85.45  175 2049  9481 1915 1937
10    Mickey Mantle  85.14  172 2038  9907 1951 1968
11      Willie Mays  83.79  155 2368 12496 1951 1973
12   Frank Robinson  78.58  154 2128 11742 1956 1976
13          Mel Ott  76.91  155 2086 11348 1926 1947
14     Honus Wagner  72.48  150 1890 11748 1897 1917
15      Jimmie Foxx  71.79  163 2130  9674 1925 1945
16     Frank Thomas  69.48  156 2002 10075 1990 2008
17    Manny Ramirez  64.67  154 2005  9774 1993 2011
18    Albert Pujols  64.15  170 1613  7433 2001 2011
19       Nap Lajoie  61.83  150 1692 10460 1896 1916
20     Jeff Bagwell  58.38  149 1788  9431 1991 2005

[Bravesfan1984]

Frank Thomas had a Hall of Fame career for 11 years but then he went downhill for the last 8 years. I guess it depends if you think the first 11 years were strong enough to make up for the below average 8 years. I would still put him in but I can see why others would not.

[dominik]

Frank Thomas had a Hall of Fame career for 11 years but then he went downhill for the last 8 years. I guess it depends if you think the first 11 years were strong enough to make up for the below average 8 years. I would still put him in but I can see why others would not.

well he still finished with a 156 OPS+ and over 500 HRs.

Also his last 8 years werent that bad if you consider rate stats. he still had a 130 OPS+ over them. the bigger issue with those years was that he missed a ton of games due to injuries. he only averaged 99 games over his last 8 seasons which is very bad of course.

[ol' aches and pains]

Frank Thomas at his peak was the best right-handed hitter I ever saw. I guess it all boils down to how much value you assign to defense, and how you feel about DH's in the Hall of Fame. As great a hitter as Thomas was, there's no denying he was the worst defensive 1st baseman in history, or at least until Adam Dunn came along. Seriously, you or I could throw down to second base more accurately than Thomas. I don't think I ever saw him accomplish it, every attempt I saw resulted in a throwing error.

But what a hitter he was the first ten years of his career. I think he's a Hall-of Famer, if you can overlook his defense.
He certainly scored/drove in a lot more runs with the bat than he gave up with the glove.

[pheasant]

Frank Thomas' career OPS+ is 156 vs Jimmie Foxx's 162. Thomas had 300+ more plate appearances than Foxx. Thomas's best 7 year stretch yielded an OPS+ of 182. Foxx's best 7 year stretch had an OPS+ of 179. Granted, I'll choose Foxx over Thomas, mainly due to defense. But Thomas stacks up pretty well against Jimmie Foxx in the hitting department, even though Foxx wins that by a very small margin. I.e, I have Thomas making it into the Hall his very first year.

[CandlestickBum]

[
N/M, didn't notice I was replying to a 7 year old post. Dang!