Frank Thomas for HOF?! HA!

[RuthMayBond]

Sarcasm? I thought you would just swamp the thread with a bunch of sabermetrics. (yes, I know, that is sarcasm too)

Whaddya say Matt, we give ol' Tiger a 2.00 for his sarcasm, but park and era-adjusted to a 9.95

[RuthMayBond]

Bagwell is injured quite often? Other than strike shortened years, he's played less than 142 games exactly ONCE (last year), and usually was in the 150's and 160's.

Bagwell has exactly ONE more home run than Thomas. That's a big difference?

Bagwell pinch hit a few times in ONE WS at the end of his career (going 1-8), and it gives him a big advantage over Thomas?

Those sabermetricians confusing him with the facts

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I don't see how one can think Thomas is better than Greenberg? better than Killebrew?
I 'll give you Cepeda and Perez as I think they are borderline anyway.

But I feel neither Thomas, nor Bagwell, nor Will Clark (from the other thread) will make the Hall. The next 1st baseman will be McGwire. After that, who knows?

What you feel or I feel has no relavence. It only matter how the HoF voters feel. Given their history and what other HoF first basemen have done, Thomas and Bagwell are easily HoFers. Both are amongst the 10 greatest first basemen of all time. A case can made that Bagwell is amongst the top-5.

[Captain Cold Nose]

What you feel or I feel has no relavence. It only matter how the HoF voters feel. Given their history and what other HoF first basemen have done, Thomas and Bagwell are easily HoFers. Both are amongst the 10 greateast first basemen of all time.

Well, he was right. McGwire will get in before any of them, considering Thomas and Bagwell have not even retired yet and McGwire's on the ballot next year.

[Mike D.]

Those sabermetricians confusing him with the facts

Ha ha...I HAVE been a member of SABR for a couple-er-three years, but in my defense, I DID know how to look up games played and career HR before I joined that fine organization.

[jalbright]

Even conceding that Thomas was a liabilty with the glove, and forgetting all win share, ink, and HOF standards categories as well as any career rate stats (which could decline), one can make a heck of a case for Thomas' inclusion in the Hall when he retires so long as he doesn't get involved with folks like Joe Jackson and Pete Rose did:

He was in the top eight in MVP voting eight times;
He won 1 batting title, and was in the top ten in average seven times;
He led the league in slugging percentage once, and was in the top six in that category nine times;
He led the league in runs scored once, and was in the top ten in that category seven times;
He was in the top eight in total bases eight times;
He was the runner up in homers four times, and was in the top eight in that category eight times;
He was in the top seven in RBI eight times;
He led his league in times on base three times and was in the top five in that category ten times;
He led his league in walks drawn four times and was in the top seven in that category 11 times;
He twice led his league in extra base hits and was in the top ten in that category eight times;
He's currently 30th in career homers;
He's currently 48th in career RBI;
He's currently seventeenth in career walks drawn; and
He's currently 47th in career extra base hits.

I hope none of this is too complicated for those of you who don't like the numbers. For those who doubt his credentials, please advise of all cases of players with this many top-flight performances who have not made the Hall without being declared permanently ineligible.

Jim Albright

[dl4060]

Well, much like Thomas, Bagwell was injured quite ofter, but Bagwell STILL has more HRs than Thomas and was actually able to PLAY when his team finally made the WS. I know its ridiculous to compare HR totals, but batting is really all you can discuss when Frank Thomas is the issue.

I really do not see what being able to play in the world series has to do with whether or not he deserves to be in the hall of fame. Ted Williams did not do much in the 1946 world series. If Ted had not been able to play should he be excluded from the hall? How many players with OPS+ of 161 over close to 7000 at bats are not in the hall. From 91-97 he was close to Ted Williams, not as good, but look at his stats: He had three seasons where he hit close to .350 with 35 or more homeruns. His lowest ops from 91-91 is 178! I would have liked to see afew more great seasons in there, 98, 99, 01, 02, 03, maybe two more years of those 5 where he was as productive as in his prime, but he is easily a hall of famer by any logical argument. Thomas and Bagwell are very similar, and both should go in without an argument, even if injuries prevent them from playing another game. Find me someone with 7000 career atbats and an HR/at bat of 15.5, a BA of .307, an OBP of .427, and an SLG of .568 who is not a hall of famer. In his prime he was absolutely awesome.

[NationalPastime1980]

I can't believe how much support that guy gets on these boards! After signing with the A's, he said that he believes there is no doubt he'll make the HOF even if he doesn't reach 500 HRs. He's a HOF joke! He had a few great seasons (ok, he was one of the best players in the game for a while) but then he switched to DH and STILL manages to get hurt on a regular basis. He couldn't even play in the World Series when Chicago finally got there again! And his numbers are really not that great, especially when he is known almost exclusively for his offense. I mean, even ELHALO, Mr. "Reggie Jackson, Robin Yount, Paul Molitor, Kirby Puckett, Ryne Sandberg, etc. don't belong in the Hall" has called Thomas a "lock" in other threads! I mean, even his managers are so fed up with his lack of playing that they wanted to get rid of him! Hall of Famer, I don't think so! (And who's idea was it to try to start a "Who's the better hitter?" poll between him and Lou Gehrig? Did you really think that would even be close?)

Welcome to the boards! Release the hounds!

The Big Hurt will be a Hall of Famer.

[Dontworry]

Should be a first ballot Hall of Famer. A top ten first basemen all time.

[RuthMayBond]

I can't believe how much support that guy gets on these boards! After signing with the A's, he said that he believes there is no doubt he'll make the HOF even if he doesn't reach 500 HRs. He's a HOF joke! He had a few great seasons (ok, he was one of the best players in the game for a while) but then he switched to DH and STILL manages to get hurt on a regular basis. He couldn't even play in the World Series when Chicago finally got there again! And his numbers are really not that great, especially when he is known almost exclusively for his offense. I mean, even ELHALO, Mr. "Reggie Jackson, Robin Yount, Paul Molitor, Kirby Puckett, Ryne Sandberg, etc. don't belong in the Hall" has called Thomas a "lock" in other threads! I mean, even his managers are so fed up with his lack of playing that they wanted to get rid of him! Hall of Famer, I don't think so!

You could start a po- <SMACK!>

[yanks0714]

Even conceding that Thomas was a liabilty with the glove, and forgetting all win share, ink, and HOF standards categories as well as any career rate stats (which could decline), one can make a heck of a case for Thomas' inclusion in the Hall when he retires so long as he doesn't get involved with folks like Joe Jackson and Pete Rose did:

He was in the top eight in MVP voting eight times;
He won 1 batting title, and was in the top ten in average seven times;
He led the league in slugging percentage once, and was in the top six in that category nine times;
He led the league in runs scored once, and was in the top ten in that category seven times;
He was in the top eight in total bases eight times;
He was the runner up in homers four times, and was in the top eight in that category eight times;
He was in the top seven in RBI eight times;
He led his league in times on base three times and was in the top five in that category ten times;
He led his league in walks drawn four times and was in the top seven in that category 11 times;
He twice led his league in extra base hits and was in the top ten in that category eight times;
He's currently 30th in career homers;
He's currently 48th in career RBI;
He's currently seventeenth in career walks drawn; and
He's currently 47th in career extra base hits.

I hope none of this is too complicated for those of you who don't like the numbers. For those who doubt his credentials, please advise of all cases of players with this many top-flight performances who have not made the Hall without being declared permanently ineligible.

Jim Albright

Kinda sounds like surefire HOF'er to me....probably even a no-brainer 1st ballot.

[538280]

This thread really saddens me, to tell the truth. If you don't think Frank Thomas is a HOFer, then, well, you just have no idea what makes a great ballplayer.

Frank Thomas won two MVP awards. Frank Thomas is 11th all time in MVP shares (NOT a sabermetric measure. Based entirely on the MVP vote). Enough said.

[abacab]

This thread really saddens me, to tell the truth. If you don't think Frank Thomas is a HOFer, then, well, you just have no idea what makes a great ballplayer.

If this thread is the saddest thing in your life, you've got it pretty easy

In all seriousness, people who haven't studied the Hall of Fame standards and adjusted stats and whatnot are not going to be able to rank a player, so let's not be too mean. When I first came to this site, I thought Wade Boggs was a questionable Hall of Fame candidate. You can search this archive for that thread. I really thought he was a borderline case at the time.

[digglahhh]

Maybe we have forgotten what Thomas did in the early 90's. The second best hitter of the decade (behind an immortal) isn't a good enough HOF resume? Yeah his defense was awful, so was Ted Williams's, what's the point?

Is his greatness overstated by the advanced metrics, quite possibly, but during the 90's he was a monster.

I know the guys who shun all stats don't want to hear this but just for a bit of context. Albert Pujols's OPS+ is 169 for his career, Thomas posted higher marks than every season for the first 8 seasons of his career.

Now let's dig a little deeper, Thomas was criticized for being too selective at the plate, many thought he would rather walk than attempt to drive in a run when the ball was two inches off the plate. But all things considered how can he not go?

He was a far better hitter than McGwire. Teams were afraid to pitch to him, and he wouldn't accomodate them by swining at bad pitches. He has more career walks than strikeouts. His .568 CAREER SLG is probably better than several HOFers best single season. Reggie Jackson topped Thomas's career SLG exactly twice! I mean there isn't enough bandwith on this site to talk about the offensive achievements of Thomas that make him Hall worthy.

Its amazing what a few down years do to a guy's rep. To the ultra-traditionalists, I bet you support Ralph Kiner. Thomas was like Kiner, but better and the he stuck around to decline. Kiner was pretty much a butcher in the field too.

I think a lot of you guys are overcompensating for not liking the metrics. Forget about any of that noise and he is still a HOF.

I cringe to ask you guys this but how do you feel about Manny Ramirez?

[digglahhh]

By the way, its pretty self-restrictive for somebody who calls himself futurehalloffamer to set the bar higher than Frank Thomas.

[538280]

If this thread is the saddest thing in your life, you've got it pretty easy

In all seriousness, people who haven't studied the Hall of Fame standards and adjusted stats and whatnot are not going to be able to rank a player, so let's not be too mean. When I first came to this site, I thought Wade Boggs was a questionable Hall of Fame candidate. You can search this archive for that thread. I really thought he was a borderline case at the time.

Never said it was the saddest thing .

But, it really does somewhat make me sad because Thomas is one of my favorite players. It would be the biggest snubbing ever if he doesn't make it in. I'm confident he will make it, but who really knows, with the writers.

I came here thinking Gary Carter was a questionable Hall selection. You can check the archive for that too. Actually, here's a link:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...ter#post306617

[futurehalloffamer]

By the way, its pretty self-restrictive for somebody who calls himself futurehalloffamer to set the bar higher than Frank Thomas.

OK, I'll admit that was pretty funny. However, I never had Frank Thomas in mind when I thought of the name!

[csh19792001]

This thread really saddens me, to tell the truth.

I'm thrilled to say that I completely agree with you.

[rockin500]

This thread really saddens me, to tell the truth. If you don't think Frank Thomas is a HOFer, then, well, you just have no idea what makes a great ballplayer.

Frank Thomas won two MVP awards. Frank Thomas is 11th all time in MVP shares (NOT a sabermetric measure. Based entirely on the MVP vote). Enough said.

we agree very rarely, but this is one time i agree wholeheartedly. one of the best hitters (if not the best) of the 90's, he should have also had a 3rd MVP instead of just the two.

how he could be considered not a shoo-in Hall of Famer is beyond me.

[Edgartohof]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

You may not want him to go into the HOF, or even think that he should, but realistically, he will (barring a "Rose/Jackson" incident, which should be easy).

It is just truly astounding that someone could not see him as a Hall of Famer. He did more with the bat than almost anyone. He was the second best hitter, and 2nd or 3rd best player of the '90's. Do you want some numbers? Here are a few:

From 1991-1997 (7 years), he had: 100+ Runs, 100+ RBI, and 100+ BB's, and only had over 100 strikeouts, ONCE during that stretch! Even with his decline, he has a career OPS+ of 161, and during his peak, it was closer to 180!!! Who else can say that? He was one of the greatest on-base guys in the history of baseball, with a career OBP of .427, good for 13th best - EVER, 10th best if you take out the 19th century players (McGraw, Hamilton, and Joyce), so that means, only 9 other players got on base at a better rate - NINE!!! And only 2 active players are ahead of him - Bonds (who is Bonds...), and Helton, who plays at Coors. So if that is not good enough for you, then nothing is. You probably would only have about 10 guys in your HOF - Ruth, Cobb, W.Johnson...

You would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of people out there who would side with you, which should tell you something. But far be it for me to tell you that one of the greatest hitters in the game should be in the Hall of Fame - oh wait, I just did.

[DoubleX]

I said this earlier, but it bears repeating. If you don't think Thomas is a Hall of Fame hitter, you must have a short memory. The guy was downright filthy, and probably could have been moreso if not for his tremendously discerning eye. Like I said, picture Albert Pujols over the past few years, and then add a little bit more to that, and that's what you get for Thomas from 1991-1997. Few players in the history of the game can claim stretches that rival that, especially for 7 consecutive seasons.

[torez77]

We should make a counter thread entitled "Frank Thomas NOT for HOF?! HA!"

[ElHalo]

I don't see how one can think Thomas is better than Greenberg? better than Killebrew?

Absolutely better than Killebrew. By a mile and a half.

Killer doesn't gain much of an edge in the fielding and baserunning departments. And while Killer was out there throwing up .250-.270 BA's every year, Thomas was pumping out .320+ seasons like they were going out of style.

Thomas had 8 seasons with at least 100 R, 100 RBI, 20 HR, 100 BB, and .300/.400/.500. Want to take a guess at how many players in history have done that more times? Ruth had 11. Gehrig had 9. And you've just run out of names of people who did it more times than Frank Thomas.

[Tigerfan1974]

Even conceding that Thomas was a liabilty with the glove, and forgetting all win share, ink, and HOF standards categories
What Hall of Fame standards categories? There are NO standards that guarantee election.

as well as any career rate stats (which could decline), one can make a heck of a case for Thomas' inclusion in the Hall when he retires so long as he doesn't get involved with folks like Joe Jackson and Pete Rose did:

He was in the top eight in MVP voting eight times;
He won 1 batting title, and was in the top ten in average seven times;
He led the league in slugging percentage once, and was in the top six in that category nine times;
He led the league in runs scored once, and was in the top ten in that category seven times;
He was in the top eight in total bases eight times;
He was the runner up in homers four times, and was in the top eight in that category eight times;
He was in the top seven in RBI eight times;
He led his league in times on base three times and was in the top five in that category ten times;
He led his league in walks drawn four times and was in the top seven in that category 11 times;
He twice led his league in extra base hits and was in the top ten in that category eight times;
He's currently 30th in career homers;
He's currently 48th in career RBI;
He's currently seventeenth in career walks drawn; and
He's currently 47th in career extra base hits.

I hope none of this is too complicated for those of you who don't like the numbers. For those who doubt his credentials, please advise of all cases of players with this many top-flight performances who have not made the Hall without being declared permanently ineligible.

Jim Albright

I may sound like a broken record, but baseball should take a clue from football and base election on what they did on the field, not in life.
Rose and Joe Jackson belong in the Hall!!! 'Nuf said.

[abacab]

I may sound like a broken record, but baseball should take a clue from football and base election on what they did on the field, not in life.
Rose and Joe Jackson belong in the Hall!!! 'Nuf said.

Frank Thomas was arguably a better player than either Rose or Jackson.