Sparks, this could be my son you're talking about.3-4 hours of practice a day at school is plenty. PG is the place to showcase, but you don't really need that until his Jr year (maybe next year, just to get a feel for it).
Baseball Voodoo
Sparks, this could be my son you're talking about.
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Sparks
Your son doesn't need to attend a PG event until you think he's a college prospect. This means a college coach would be impressed with what he sees in the moment. I also sent you a PM.
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Can't agree with you here. There's always good info here, but I've used the gun for years and have never felt that anyone was trying to impress the gun. From reading your posts, I can also tell that you are of the opinion that travel ball is a waste of time and that the current trends in that direction are problematic. That's OK, but the fact of the matter is that travel ball is big time. The coaching is dramatically more sophisticated than it was 15 years ago and so is the strategy. That may not be the way alot of people would like to see things, but it's not going to end.Originally Posted by Jake Patterson
A gun serves several uses. In a subsequent post you mention how many arms you've seen ruined by the radar gun. Could you elaborate? I'm just not seeing what you are seeing. Where were they used and for waht purpose? Is the implication that kids overthrow when the radar gun comes out? If so, is the implication that this is somehow more true at 11 than at 18? Also, I have my kids throwing their hardest at particular points of the game when I will call for "hard-hard." I'm not new at this and have been using it for years. I just haven't seen the problems I guess others are reporting.
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Root I understand that you believe that... but placing a young athlete in a competitive environment with a highly visible tool that evaluates only speed, the natural athlete will always look to compete. In this case it's throw faster/harder.
To be clear - I believe youth TB and year-round TB are problematic. At some point it's necessary for those who wish to go on to HS and higher ball - I see this point at or somewhere around 13 y/o.From reading your posts, I can also tell that you are of the opinion that travel ball is a waste of time and that the current trends in that direction are problematic.
Agree... but its size and popularity is not a direct correlation to its potential benefit to the game or those who play it.That's OK, but the fact of the matter is that travel ball is big time.
I would also suggest - that when evaluating coaches at the youth athletics level - TB, AAU, USSSA, Etc., has more than their share of age inappropriate coaches. Most of the organizations themselves are age Inappropriate - Just visit the USSSA and take a look at their 4U National Championships,
Having been involved with the game for more than 40 years I respectfully disagree. What strategies do you feel have changed???The coaching is dramatically more sophisticated than it was 15 years ago and so is the strategy.
AgreeThat may not be the way alot of people would like to see things, but it's not going to end.
There is much information available from experts - much of it has been shared here at BBF. To answer your question above - YES ! ! there is a HUGE difference between prepubescent arms with exposed growth plates and post-pubescent mature arms with closed growth plates. NO kenesiologist or orthopedic doctor, surgeon, specialist disagrees with this. Search - Michael Joyce and his work. Also many pitching experts have expressed their opinion that arm speed in youth baseball is NO indication of future success and the priority at a younger age should be control. Steve Ellis did a nice piece on this. What does getting a few MPH's at the youth level really buy you???A gun serves several uses. In a subsequent post you mention how many arms you've seen ruined by the radar gun. Could you elaborate? I'm just not seeing what you are seeing. Where were they used and for waht purpose? Is the implication that kids overthrow when the radar gun comes out? If so, is the implication that this is somehow more true at 11 than at 18? Also, I have my kids throwing their hardest at particular points of the game when I will call for "hard-hard." I'm not new at this and have been using it for years. I just haven't seen the problems I guess others are reporting.
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OK. What does this have to do with radar guns? Do you believe that without radar guns, kids aren't interested in throwing hard under the age of 13? I do get your point on speed, but there are two points I would like to get across:
1) The whole experience doesn't have to be about producing future major leaugers (or even future high school studs, for that matter). There is a lot of enjoyment from playing RIGHT NOW.
2) When I was a kid, there was no organized ball at the younger ages. If you could make a Little League team at nine or ten, good for you. Otherwise, we played pickup games and we practiced throwing as hard as we could. We threw curve balls constantly to see what we could get on a ball and we did all this with no supervision. We did this sometimes until our arms were trashed. I prefer today's organized ball.
To be safe, I do believe that if I think my kid is going to be some future baseball stud pitcher, the best idea would be not to let him pitch until his teens, but that isn't realistic. Should I do that at the expense of the other kids who would have to pick up the extra innings? Or should he just not play organized ball? The answer might be pitching machine, but I live in the real world where there are no 11-year-old pitching machine leagues. Yeah, we play alot of ball. We enjoy it for the sake of today - not high school.
Yes, the strategies have changed. Fifteen years ago, LL was still king. With twelve-year-olds who don't lead off base. Six foot kids who throw from 46 feet. Today, thank God, some organizations have come to grips with how ridiculous that is. By 10, if you're in USSSA, Triple Crown, or the equivilant, you see kids that know how to hold runners on base. We have pitch counts that they used to not have. Nine to twelve year olds play a game that more resembles what adults play. That's the world we live in. There will be no going back to LL only.
Back to the subject, what do any of your arguments have to do with RADAR GUNS? Are coaches who don't use them NOT emphasizing speed or changes of speed in their pitching philosophies? Do you have some tangible proof that if I pull out my radar gun, someone is going to get hurt (short of me chucking it to the mound)? I think your arguments are based on your dislike for younger kids playing travel ball and have nothing to do with the subject of radar guns.
As far as the 4yo World Series on USSSA. Note that last season, only 150 teams signed up as 4yo on USSSA. Of those, only 15 actually played. Of those, ten were simply in a local USSSA T-Ball League. Of the rest, none played more than 8 games. Additionally, they didn't actually have a 4yo World series, it's just on the options. Nor did they have a 5yo W/S and the 6yo W/S only drew 3 teams.
Inappropriate coaches? OK. That one, I'll have to give you. I've seen more than my share in travel ball.
Scorekeeper
I can only ASSUME you're responding to Jake.
Of course kids are interested in throwing hard, because adults reward throwing hard. But its throwing hard that’s the issue, not the numbers on some gun! When you were a kid, did you know who threw hard and who didn’t? I was in LLI in 1956, and I guarantee you that every kid knew who the hard throwers were.
Very true.1) The whole experience doesn't have to be about producing future major leaugers (or even future high school studs, for that matter). There is a lot of enjoyment from playing RIGHT NOW.
Personally, until pitch counts became the norm, I think organized ball was by far more dangerous to the kids.2) When I was a kid, there was no organized ball at the younger ages. If you could make a Little League team at nine or ten, good for you. Otherwise, we played pickup games and we practiced throwing as hard as we could. We threw curve balls constantly to see what we could get on a ball and we did all this with no supervision. We did this sometimes until our arms were trashed. I prefer today's organized ball.
Why is the only choice not pitching at all or pitching a lot of innings? Why not just let every kid on the team pitch who wanted to? In a 20 game LLI season for a 12 player team, 10 of who wanted to pitch, it would be at very most, 12 innings per kid. The problem isn’t the math, its how you choose to use it.To be safe, I do believe that if I think my kid is going to be some future baseball stud pitcher, the best idea would be not to let him pitch until his teens, but that isn't realistic. Should I do that at the expense of the other kids who would have to pick up the extra innings? Or should he just not play organized ball? The answer might be pitching machine, but I live in the real world where there are no 11-year-old pitching machine leagues. Yeah, we play alot of ball. We enjoy it for the sake of today - not high school.
No one, not even Mike Marshall whom a lot of people call a crackpot, suggest kids don’t pitch until they’re 13 or their growth plates close. Its the propensity of coaches to have the kids they think are the best, pitch an inordinate amount of innings that’s the problem. Just spread out the workload and the problem for the most part goes away.
So what? Why has this become a knock on LLI? Just what percentage of kids playing on the 46/60 field are 6 footers do you think there are?Yes, the strategies have changed. Fifteen years ago, LL was still king. With twelve-year-olds who don't lead off base. Six foot kids who throw from 46 feet. Today, thank God, some organizations have come to grips with how ridiculous that is. By 10, if you're in USSSA, Triple Crown, or the equivilant, you see kids that know how to hold runners on base. We have pitch counts that they used to not have. Nine to twelve year olds play a game that more resembles what adults play. That's the world we live in. There will be no going back to LL only.
The argument isn’t that radar guns are necessarily causing injuries, as much as the demand for indiscriminate max effort, or that there’s simply no good reason anyone needs to know what velocity a pre-teenager throws.Back to the subject, what do any of your arguments have to do with RADAR GUNS? Are coaches who don't use them NOT emphasizing speed or changes of speed in their pitching philosophies? Do you have some tangible proof that if I pull out my radar gun, someone is going to get hurt (short of me chucking it to the mound)? I think your arguments are based on your dislike for younger kids playing travel ball and have nothing to do with the subject of radar guns.
Even the thought of 4, 5, or 6 YO’s having a WS is despicable! What is the purpose? How does it make the kids or the game any better?As far as the 4yo World Series on USSSA. Note that last season, only 150 teams signed up as 4yo on USSSA. Of those, only 15 actually played. Of those, ten were simply in a local USSSA T-Ball League. Of the rest, none played more than 8 games. Additionally, they didn't actually have a 4yo World series, it's just on the options. Nor did they have a 5yo W/S and the 6yo W/S only drew 3 teams.
The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.
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Root, sorry... missed your reply....
Absolutely agree .... so why a gun?
I am uncertain what this has to do with strategy in the game.... I agree with many experts who feel youth baseball as you describe above was more healthy.2) When I was a kid, there was no organized ball at the younger ages. If you could make a Little League team at nine or ten, good for you. Otherwise, we played pickup games and we practiced throwing as hard as we could. We threw curve balls constantly to see what we could get on a ball and we did all this with no supervision. We did this sometimes until our arms were trashed. I prefer today's organized ball.
I unfortunately agree with this.To be safe, I do believe that if I think my kid is going to be some future baseball stud pitcher, the best idea would be not to let him pitch until his teens, but that isn't realistic.
There is definitely a rub here..Should I do that at the expense of the other kids who would have to pick up the extra innings? Or should he just not play organized ball?
I feel we should use pitching machines longer than we do.The answer might be pitching machine, but I live in the real world where there are no 11-year-old pitching machine leagues. Yeah, we play alot of ball. We enjoy it for the sake of today - not high school.
I agree, but to delude yourself into thinking this is good for the game or the children who play it. As far as a 10 year old being able to hold a runner I tell youth coaches "so what?" Getting a six month head start on a cohort member at this age matters not. What they learn at 10 they can learn at 13 and be just as effective at 16Yes, the strategies have changed. Fifteen years ago, LL was still king. With twelve-year-olds who don't lead off base. Six foot kids who throw from 46 feet. Today, thank God, some organizations have come to grips with how ridiculous that is. By 10, if you're in USSSA, Triple Crown, or the equivilant, you see kids that know how to hold runners on base. We have pitch counts that they used to not have. Nine to twelve year olds play a game that more resembles what adults play. That's the world we live in. There will be no going back to LL only.
No there is some real basis for my opinions... I ran clinics for ten years and anytime a gun was pulled out every athlete wanted to see what they could throw.Back to the subject, what do any of your arguments have to do with RADAR GUNS? Are coaches who don't use them NOT emphasizing speed or changes of speed in their pitching philosophies? Do you have some tangible proof that if I pull out my radar gun, someone is going to get hurt (short of me chucking it to the mound)? I think your arguments are based on your dislike for younger kids playing travel ball and have nothing to do with the subject of radar guns.
My disgust is with the organizations who sponsor this... One only needs to Google the above to see how prevalent it really is. We have had parents bragging about their 4U National Champion.... I am NOT opposed to TB... Like I said earlier it is a necessity (I am still involved with Legion Ball - What I consider the best amateur ball for young players)... The problem is it's becoming more and more age inappropriate.As far as the 4yo World Series on USSSA. Note that last season, only 150 teams signed up as 4yo on USSSA. Of those, only 15 actually played. Of those, ten were simply in a local USSSA T-Ball League. Of the rest, none played more than 8 games. Additionally, they didn't actually have a 4yo World series, it's just on the options. Nor did they have a 5yo W/S and the 6yo W/S only drew 3 teams.
See there is always common ground!Inappropriate coaches? OK. That one, I'll have to give you. I've seen more than my share in travel ball.
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Only LL was "King" up to 15 years ago until the advent of TB? Where the heck have you guys been?
In 1970 with my dad as league President and the others on the board with him . . . the league I played in, incorporated with PONY baseball (no girls softball at the time), and from the "Mustang" division (9/10 year olds) on up, all were playing "real baseball" with lead-offs, pick-offs, and base stealing, only on smaller fields.
40 years ago most of the leagues around our area of SoCal were affiliated with PONY baseball, with a small smattering of LLs here and there . . . for those who thought they be coaching and playing in Williamsport on ABC's Wide World of Sports some day.
So how you're figuring that youth baseball strategies have somehow suddenly changed in the past 15 years just becasue some greedy, for profit TB organizations showed up on the scene to bilk money from the pockets of some delusional and egotistical dads is beyond me . . .
Last edited by mudvnine; 02-18-2011 at 08:42 PM.
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OK. 15 years is too recent. It just makes me feel to old to recognize that it was more like 35 years ago. When I started coaching 15 or so years ago, most leagues in Arkansas, where I was at the time, mixed LL with Pony. They played LL through 12 and then switched to PONY. I've always thought PONY was a better organization. This comes from a former LL President. When I owned a Action Sports photography company we used to photograph the 6yo "World Series." It actually only consisted of a handful of teams who were from the city where it was held.
Again, though, as far as holding on runners and the finer points of the game, its not always about getting an advantage for high school. It just makes for a more enjoyable game now.
I'll also hold to my opinion that 12-year-olds should not be throwing from 46 feet or running 60-foot bases. BUut, I do realize that millions of kids play LL, so I'm in the minority.
Scorekeeper
I’m sure you find it more “enjoyable”, but what you’re missing is, for a lot of us it doesn’t matter one whit.
What you’re evidently not picking up on, is that most 12YO’s aren’t hulking, knuckle dragging monsters. For the vast majority of games on the 46/60 field, it’s the perfect sized field, and in fact for some, its probably too big.I'll also hold to my opinion that 12-year-olds should not be throwing from 46 feet or running 60-foot bases. BUut, I do realize that millions of kids play LL, so I'm in the minority.
LLI isn’t fine tuned for 12/13YO’s! Its trying to appeal to the broadest base possible, and that includes more “little guys” than “big-uns”.
Last edited by Jake Patterson; 02-19-2011 at 09:04 AM. Reason: spelling
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Our first game is tonight.... we play a double header.
Our Varsity team played a double header tonight and got killed..... Wow they played two of the top 6A teams in our state and were just demolished. The second game the other pitcher pitched a perfect game against them and struck out 13 of 16 batters (mercy rule kicked in and they called the game).
I know my boy is only a freshmen but after seeing what happened to our Varsity team "I KNOW HE ISN'T READY TO PLAY VARSITY YET!". Wow that is just a whole different level of talent than my boy is used too.
Anyway, can't wait till our games tonight.....
Sparks
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Sparks ...
When my son was a freshman the varsity was weak. Someone asked if I thought he could make varsity. My feeling was he was good enough relative to the talent at the high school, but not good enough to compete against what he would be facing. The next year he was ready. Maybe your son will be ready next year. Tell him to work hard and be enthusiastic about learning. Along with talent he'll get noticed.
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tg,
Perfect advice and I 100% agree with you.
Sparks
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This is true. I may have exaggerated a bit. My main problem with that distance at 12 is that they go stright from the 60' field to the big field with no time to adjust whereas USSSA, PONY, Cal Ripken, etc. make the move in steps. In USSSA, for example it's 40'/60' at 8, 46'/65' at 9 and 10, 50'/70' at 11 and 12, and moves up in increments. I think that just better prepares kids than the big jump that LL kids make.
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I'll also hold to my opinion that 12-year-olds should not be throwing from 46 feet or running 60-foot bases. BUut, I do realize that millions of kids play LL, so I'm in the minority.
LL is about to introduce the 50/70 option. Being far removed from LL I don't know the details. I'll guess random LL's apply for the trial. After it's considered a success all LL's will have the option.
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We played our first games of the year. It's my boys first game as a high school freshman.
We played a double header and my boy got the call to pitch the second game.
Dominate would be the word..... I personally think he pitched his best game EVER!
He pitched a complete game shutout.....gave up one hit and walked one! AND STRUCK OUT10!!!!!
He didn't hit very well but did hit a bomb to center that was caught for an out. I think he went 1 for 4 at the plate with a walk mixed in.
I didn't gun him but he was easily throwing faster than I've ever seen him throw. Most people around me were saying he was easily hitting 80mph (I think so too) . The ball was just jumping out of his hand.
It was a great night and our freshmen as we started the year winning both games.
Sparks
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Sparks,
You may need to let this play out a few more years, but maybe this thread could be the basis of another book? It's heart-warming and is a great story! I wish I was local... I'd love to see him play.
Thanks for the update!
Jake
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Jake,
Thanks Jake.....it was a great night. A few of the Varsity players showed up at the game and they started pulling for my boy and yelling from the stands.
He really did look great tonight but we have a pretty good freshman team too.... he didn't win either game by himself. All of the kids played good and after they get the rust off they should continue to improve as the year goes on.
Sparks
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Sparks, congrats to you and your boy for a great initial outing. While we can all say, "Hey, don't worry about the first game - it's just a shakedown cruise," there's nothing like making a Statement (with a capital "s") your first time out on the mound. From here on out, his name will always be in the mix as a starting pitcher. The only 'risk' is that varsity will want/need him sooner rather than later. Heck, anyone who can throw strikes at any speed this time around is remarkable at any level.
Given his outing, I had to chuckle at your comment, "He didn't hit very well but did hit a bomb to center that was caught for an out. I think he went 1 for 4 at the plate with a walk mixed in." Apart from the fact that a .400 OBP isn't so bad, your lament sounds like the apocryphal story/joke about the fellow who bedded Marily Monroe and, when asked by his buddies how it went, replied, "Oh, okay, but she has this freckle on her hip that I didn't like."
We had our first JV game last night against a pretty mediocre team, and it was very sloppy -- partly that because with recent rains (and the City's insistence that the public field we play on not be used) the team hasn't had real field practice for ten days. Our starter had six walks and three hit batsmen in the first three innings, and the only reason that we were down only three nothing was because of a double play and bad baserunning by the equally sloppy opponent. I think our fielding percentage on grounders was about .400. UMinor was held back so he could be the closer, but when we took a six run lead in the top of the last inning, they brought his buddy Jake into pitch, and the opponents put up four runs and had the tying run on (from walks, another HBP, and at least two more errors) with two outs. The next batter hits the catcher's nightmare (especially on a windy field with municipal-park-quality lighting) -- a pop-up straight up, the first UMinor's pop-up taken as a catcher in a game or practice in probably 8 months. Fortunately he remembered three of the most important things: get rid of the mask when you find the ball, call out loudly, and face the backstop ... and he snared the sucker while falling down despite a last-second gust of wind:
When he worried that his catch didn't look stylish, I reminded him of the admonition from his grandfather -- an old WWII pilot -- that any landing that you walk away from is a good landing. Same thing with a game ending catch. (Grandpa chuckled when I relayed the story to him today.)
It's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.
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Great vid and story Ursa . . . my oldest was a catcher during his HS playing days, so it hit home when you identified the "catcher's nightmare" . . . must say that I too held my breath more than once watching him battle those same "demons" several years back.The next batter hits the catcher's nightmare (especially on a windy field with municipal-park-quality lighting) -- a pop-up straight up, the first UMinor's pop-up taken as a catcher in a game or practice in probably 8 months. Fortunately he remembered three of the most important things: get rid of the mask when you find the ball, call out loudly, and face the backstop ... and he snared the sucker while falling down despite a last-second gust of wind:
When he worried that his catch didn't look stylish, I reminded him of the admonition from his grandfather -- an old WWII pilot -- that any landing that you walk away from is a good landing. Same thing with a game ending catch. (Grandpa chuckled when I relayed the story to him today.)
Thanks for fun memories,
mud -
PS. Watching him once crash through an unlatched gate and into some of the spectators in their lawn chairs chasing one down is one of my favorites . . . no, he didn't make the catch; unfortunately the ball went over the fence and further than he bowled the fans over.
Last edited by mudvnine; 02-24-2011 at 12:06 PM.
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
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Ursa,
Always great to hear from you.
Is that the actual video of the play? It is very funny and also I admire the catcher.... that is a hard catch to make.
Glad to hear your boy is doing well.....
Let me bend your ear and tell you what happened with our Varsity team the other night. (this is amazing).
Our Varsity also had their first game of the year but their first games are in what they call a pre-season tournament.
I wasn't able to go because it was out of town but everyone is talking about the second game our Varsity played.
They played one of the top teams in the state and maybe the country..... they put some kid out there pitching who is, from what I hear a stud......
This kid pitched a perfect game.....faced 16 batters and struck out 13! (game was called due to mercy rule). Now get this.....this is the amazing part....I am told the kid NEVER THREW A BALL! EVERY PITCH WAS A STRIKE!
God I can't believe I missed that game......I would loved to have seen a kid pitch like that.
Sparks
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update:
We played two more games yesterday....we won both.
I tell you, so far I guess I've seen 6 different freshmen teams and I am shocked at the pitching I'm seeing......shocked. Of course I can't judge all teams by the 6 teams I've seen so far but man.....I just can't believe how bad the pitching is.
Last night we scored 15 runs in the first inning and my boy had 3 hits in one inning......THREE FREAKING HITS IN ONE INNING! It wasn't because he's a great hitter....it's the pitching.....its just terrible. Who knows, maybe when we play again next week we'll face a team with better pitching.
Anyway, my boy didn't pitch last night but went 7 for 9 batting. He did make 3 errors at SS......he's having some trouble making good throws.
Sparks
Coaching 101 Moderator
Sparks, how many students at the schools your are playing??
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Hard to say...... I know the team we played earlier in the week are a 1A school but they are a baseball powerhouse and their varsity won the state last year. We actually played their JV team. That's the team my boy pitched a one hitter too. I have to say they aren't that good of a team though but they do have two or three very good players.
I know one of the teams last night is a 6 a school and their Varsity is also a powerhouse.
The other team we played, I think is probably a 3A school and they actually had a few JV players to fill their roster.
Sparks
Last edited by Sparksdale; 02-27-2011 at 08:45 AM. Reason: misspelled word
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I know with our HS Frosh team we do not have enough 8th graders graduating to fill a team, so we solicited for our HS Frosh team those who did not play 8th grade. The end result was most small schools did away with the Frosh team and stuck with JV. Some small schools here just have larger Varsity squads and no JV.
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