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Thread: Baseball Fever Hall of Fame

  1. #851
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    originally posted by JW
    Addie Joss - Had some great rates, but never actually the best pitcher in his league. Very short career. Not going to make my ballot.

    I've actually been voting for this guy for a while. Sometime last year, there as a HUGE push for this guy, and then it just... disappeared. Do you remember who was stumping him?
    This was during those dark days when we had one voter voting under a few different names, all of whom were Joss supporters. I don't remember anyone actually laying out a case for him. People who like high peaks and short careers might like him.

  2. #852
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    This Month's Contributor Ballot

    Some people are having a hard time finding worthy contributors. I will be voting for a full slate of contributors, partly for the same reason as I'm voting for 25 players, but largely because I think they are more Hall-worthy than some of the gray-area players we are discussing now.

    Here's my slate for this month, and I would advise checking Jim Albright's voting guide as well, where I shamelessly stole some of this material. (Hey, it's easier than writing it myself. )

    Ed Bolden -
    both of these from jalbright's voting guide:
    Owned two franchises (not at the same time) in the Philadelphia area, Hilldale and later, the Philadelphia Stars in addition to being the founder and commissioner of the Eastern Colored League, all while holding down a day job as a postal employee.

    From Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues:
    A gentlemanly little man, he worked in the Philadelphia post office, and was the owner of the two best-known Negro League teams in the Philadelphia area, the Hilldale Daisies and the Philadelphia Stars. A shy, quiet and modest man who preferred working in the background instead of in the spotlight, [he] is best known as the owner of the Hilldale team that won the first three Eastern Colored League championships in 1923-1925 and the 1925 [Negro] World Series over the Kansas City Monarchs. As the founder of the Eastern Colored League, he was responsible for player raids by eastern teams on the more established Negro National League.

    He took over operations for [Hilldale] in 1916, when [it] was a semipro team. The team attained [Negro] major league status the following season and wond a championship in 1921; then came the Eastern Colored League and three straight pennants. He suffered a nervous breakdown in 1927, and without his leadership the league folded the following spring.

    After he recovered, . . . he organized the Philadelphia Stars . . . . Bolden again raided other clubs for players, and entered the Negro National League in 1934, winning the pennant in the first season in the league. In the championship the team defeated the Chicago American Giants. He remained at the head of the Stars until his death in 1950.

    In addition to contributions to black baseball as a team executive, he also served as an officer in three different leagues: the Eastern Colored League, the American Negro League and the Negro National League.
    Buck Canel
    from jalbright's voting guide:
    Buck Canel announced 42 World Series to the Latin American audience via the Cabalgata Deportivo Gillette, and was the first Spanish-language broadcaster to win the Frick Award

    (Also, Felo Ramirez (not yet on my ballot) became Canel's partner in 1950 just five years after his on-air debut in Cuba, broadcast 31 World Series and 40 Caribbean Series to the Spanish-speaking world
    Jacques Doucet
    originally posted by the Slaff
    He was for 33 years, from 1972 to 2004, the legendary French radio play-by-play voice for the Montreal Expos. Over his career, Doucet described more than 5,500 Major League Baseball games … He’s the most important icon in association with the Expos. He also did a tremendous and essential job while taking part in the translation of an American baseball game to a different language and culture. He generated passions, dreams, emotions, love for baseball for every French-Canadian-baseball-and-Expos-fans.
    For us, he's as important as Mel Allen and Red Barber.
    John B. Foster
    originally posted by Wm. Burgess
    Sports writer, (Cleveland, 1887 - 1896), (New York, 1896 - 1941)
    Credited with promoting Army Navy game at the Polo Grounds into national interest.

    Years on BB 's rules committee. Considered an authority on BB law, rules, admin. Credited with answering 500,000 questions on BB rules, laws, and various phases of BB. Wrote digest of rules for the French. Was named official authority for rules for Japan.

    In 1910, he was suggested as President of the National League. Mentioned frequently between 1910 - '19, for that position.

    Official scorer at Polo Grounds almost all his career. Couldn't attend games after 1932, due to right side paralyzed. Followed BB via radio, newspapers.

    NY Giants' Secretary & business manager (Jan. 6, 1913 - Dec. 4, 1919);

    When Henry Chadwick died in 1908, John succeeded him as Editor-in-Chief of Spalding Official NL Base Ball Guide (1908-1941) and held it until he died.

    Foster was a close second to his dear friend Frances Richter in the baseball accomplishments he was able to achieve in a long BB lifetime. Like Richter, a must for Spink Award.
    Davey Johnson - a .564% ; 5-1st place and 7-2nd place finishes in 14 years managing, and one World Championship with the most unlikely group of knuckleheads and dope fiends.

    Paul Krichell -
    from Marty Appel
    Krichell was the first great Yankee scout. Hired in 1920 at 37 by general manager Ed Barrow, for whom he had worked in the minors and at Boston, Krichell would soon after find a slugger in a Columbia uniform named Lou Gehrig. The signing made his reputation, and he was still on the payroll 37 years later when he passed away, having added Phil Rizzuto and Whitey Ford to his discoveries. If ever an early century figure defined the role of “scout,” it was Krichell, a good candidate for the Hall of Fame should they ever get around to scouts.
    Lefty O'Doul - Combining his playing career with the fact that he popularized baseball in Japan, which really began bearing fruit in the '90s here in the States, makes him a worthy candidate. His best argument for admission is as a contributor.

    Jorge Pasquel - A top executive in the Mexican League, it was his inducements to our ballplayers that caused major changes in the economics of baseball and the treatment of American and National League players.

    Alex Pompez
    from the Baseball Hall Of Fame website:
    The son of Cuban immigrants, Alejandro Pompez owned the Cuban Stars of the Eastern Colored League, and later the New York Cubans of the Negro National League. Following the demise of the Negro leagues, Pompez was hired as a scout for the New York and San Francisco Giants, where for 25 years he worked to open the door for Caribbean players to enter the major leagues. He helped sign future stars such as Orlando Cepeda, Juan Marichal and the Alou brothers. His expertise on African-American baseball history was confirmed in 1971 when he was asked to serve on the Hall of Fame's Committee on Negro Leagues.
    Alfred J. Reach - Pioneer baseball professional; a great early 2nd baseman. Played for the Philadelphia Athletics, 1865-1875. Phillies’ first owner & president, 1883- 1902. Published “Official Base Ball Guide.” Founder of A.J. Reach & Co., maker of sporting goods.

    John Schuerholz - In Schuerholz' first year as Braves GM, they went from worst to first to win their division title. After that they won a record 14 division titles in a row, including a World Championship in 1995. Previously, he was GM for the Kansas City Royals for 9 seasons, winning the 1985 World Series title with them. Schuerholtz is known for his bold personnel moves.

    Matsutaro Shoriki - How's this for an argument: "If anybody belongs in from Japan, it's the father of Japanese baseball."

    George Steinbrenner - Like him or not, King George has created a model for building a winning baseball team.

    Kazuto Tsuruoka
    originally posted by jalbright
    He is Japan's winningest manager, with 1807 regular season victories to his credit as well as a .609 winning percentage. His teams were over .500 in 21 of the 23 seasons he managed, and he won 11 pennants. In those 11 pennants was a stretch of 4 pennants in five years and another stretch of 4 pennants in six years.
    Ty Tyson - The first to regularly broadcast baseball games, he began in the stands at Navin Field in 1927. Tyson's last regular baseball broadcast was in l940, but he continued sports and other commentaries from WWJ microphones along with his administrative duties at WWJ. In 1951 he took over both radio and TV broadcasts of Tiger games during the final illness and after the death of his friend and successor, Harry Heilmann. On Father's Day in 1965 he took over Ernie Harwell's mike for one inning of a Tiger broadcast. It was such a success that Harwell, who often called at the Tyson home to drive his friend places, called him back several times afterward. More info here.

    -----------------------------------------------
    Near Miss from this ballot, and a candidate for those who like managers:
    Bucky Harris spent seven different decades in the majors as a player, manager, executive, and scout. "The Boy Wonder" was 27 when he took over as player-manager of the Washington Senators in 1924, promptly winning two flags in a row. He hit .333 with two home runs to lead the Senators to a World Series title in 1924. Harris also managed the Tigers, the Red Sox and the Phillies, and led the Yankees to a World Championship in 1947. He won 2,159 games in 29 years as a manager.
    Last edited by 2Chance; 11-15-2007 at 06:51 AM.

  3. #853
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    With 11 player and 10 contributor ballots cast so far, it's time to review the status of the voting. We still have five outstanding player ballots, and 2-4 contributor ballots (because two of last election's voters weren't here when we last had contributor ballots, and they may choose not to participate) left to go from last election's voters.

    The contributor ballot is rather easy. Ed Bolden has gotten all ten votes, and had the support of the two who voted last time. That should put him safely in. Kazuto Tsuruoka has gotten nine of ten so far, and also had the support of the two who voted last time, so he should also be safely in. Lefty O'Doul has the support of eight so far, and only one of those who voted for contributors last time. That would be enough if the two who weren't here don't participate. If they do, O'Doul needs to pick up one vote for every one of the new voters. He's got a good chance, but hardly a lock. Harry Caray has seven votes, which means he needs to run the table. He had the support of only one of the two prior voters. I'd say he probably won't make it, but I could be wrong on that.

    For the player ballot, anyone with less than seven needs to do better than run the table of last month's voters, so we won't even discuss them. Those with seven need to run the next five votes (and need all five). They are: Jake Beckley, Ken Boyer, Home Run Johnson, Dobie Moore, Joe Sewell, and Bruce Sutter. None of them enjoy the support of more than three of the five who voted last election but have yet to vote this time, and thus are longshots. The eights need to get a minimum of one vote, and need to run the table unless five more votes are cast, at which point they need only four. Two of them, Kazuhisa Inao and Bob Caruthers have the support of four of last election's voters from the five who have yet to vote, and are in solid position. Tony Perez has the support of three of those voters, and has a real chance of making it this time. The other eights are Chuck Klein, Pete Browning and Sam Rice, and none of them got the support of more than one of the five who have yet to vote. I think it's safe to consider them longshots. That leaves Jeff Bagwell, who has garnered all 11 votes cast thus far, and this means he should only require the vote of one of the five yet to vote to be elected, and then only if at least four of them vote. Since this is Bagwell's first appearance on the ballot, I can't use previous votes to assess his chances of getting what he needs for election. That said, I'd be absolutely shocked if we failed to elect him in this election.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  4. #854
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    The contributor ballot hasn't changed at all in the past week, so I'll just refer you to the previous post on that ballot. There's been one more ballot and a few changed votes in the player ballot, so there's something to talk about there.

    Those with eight votes have to run the table, and need at least four votes. None of them have the support of more than two of the four voters from last election who have yet to vote, so they're definite longshots. Those players are: Pete Browning, Home Run Johnson, Chuck Klein, Dobie Moore, Sam Rice, and Bruce Sutter.

    There are two with nine. They need each vote if there are less than four, and need three if four more votes are cast. Bob Caruthers has the support of three of the voters from last election yet to vote in this one, so he's got a solid chance. Tony Perez has the support of two, and would be in solid shape if he could pick up one more.

    Kazuhisa Inao has 10 votes and the support of three of the four voters from last election, so he's in excellent shape to be elected. Jeff Bagwell is in an even stronger position, as he has 12 votes, enough to be elected without another vote so long as we don't pass 16 total. If he's not a lock, we won't have one.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #855
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    I was formulating my ballot for this election from scratch and I took a few minutes to re-read the rules. This caught my eye:
    There is only one election which occurs in a three week cycle at this point: for players who meet at least one of the following criteria: a) are not on the 40 man roster or DL in the most recent season, b) officially retired (or died) by November 1 of the last completed season, c) are over 40 and haven't played in the majors in the most recent completed season.
    It seems to me that, given his announcement of July 25, Craig Biggio meets the second requirement here, having "officially retired by November 1 of the most recent season."

    I'd like to get a ruling on this as soon as possible because it seems to me that Biggio should be a shoo-in for election this ballot and a lot of voters may wish to edit their ballots accordingly. Thank you.
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

  6. #856
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    Biggio was on a roster all year, and is thus ineligible. Bagwell wasn't eligible until this year because he spent all of last year on the DL.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  7. #857
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Biggio was on a roster all year, and is thus ineligible. Bagwell wasn't eligible until this year because he spent all of last year on the DL.
    I must have missed it in the rules where it states that that is a disqualifying factor. The rules, as I read them, stated quite clearly that a player need only to meet one of the three guidelines in order to be eligible.

    Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

  8. #858
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    I can tell you that even if you're reading it precisely correctly, that's not what I meant, and, more importantly, it's not how I've administered it thus far. Biggio isn't eligible, and if he had been, I'd have announced him. Instead, the only two I gave were Bagwell and Bernie Williams. I wouldn't have missed Biggio if I had intended him to be eligible. I'll reread the rule and fix it to match my intent more closely if necessary.

    Jim Albright

    Postscript: the rule didn't achieve what I wanted, so I changed the retirement date to September 1 instead of November 1.
    Last edited by jalbright; 11-24-2007 at 08:23 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  9. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    I can tell you that even if you're reading it precisely correctly, that's not what I meant, and, more importantly, it's not how I've administered it thus far. Biggio isn't eligible, and if he had been, I'd have announced him. Instead, the only two I gave were Bagwell and Bernie Williams. I wouldn't have missed Biggio if I had intended him to be eligible. I'll reread the rule and fix it to match my intent more closely if necessary.

    Jim Albright

    Postscript: the rule didn't achieve what I wanted, so I changed the retirement date to September 1 instead of November 1.
    No worries; I'll alter my ballot accordingly. Thanks for the clarification.
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

  10. #860
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    OK, I've expanded my ballot to 25 and I have exactly three open spots remaining in the queue, after which I'm kicking players off. Edgar Martinez won't count towards that and will likely end up on my ballot.

    With the election of Luis Aparicio and long since Ozzie Smith, it brings two players more to the spotlight that compare favorably to them IMO: Rabbat Maranville and Bill Mazeroski. I put Maranville on my ballot, and came close to adding Maz. I don't know if it's the best decision. These guys are competing for spots against real solid OFers like Bobby Veach, Tony Oliva and Bob Johnson.

    I'm having trouble picking out the remaining pitchers to vote for. If Bob Caruthers, why not Tony Mullane? If Chief Bender, why not Urban Shocker? If Tommy Bridges, why not Lefty Gomez? Nonetheless, the Cooperstown cutoff line seems to be right in the middle of this area. I know that I am not voting for Red Ruffing or Burleigh Grimes.
    Last edited by J W; 11-29-2007 at 09:01 AM.

  11. #861
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    We had a very productive election. On the player side, we elected Jeff Bagwell, Bob Caruthers, Kazuhisa Inao, and Tony Perez. On the contributor side, we elected Ed Bolden, Lefty O'Doul, and Kazuto Tsuruoka. We covered recent baseball, the 19th century, Japanese ball (a special thanks from yours truly in that regard to all who provided support), and the Negro Leagues in our inductees for this month.

    O'Doul is now ineligible on the player side.

    The contributor ballot was productive in electing the guys I "campaigned" for, but few beyond the elected ones could amass even a majority of the vote, in large measure to the short ballots which supported few beyond the electees (Five of our 14 ballots were for less than 10 candidates). It seems that the once a year aspect helped focus attention on the campaign, and perhaps it will work that way again in the future. We'll have to wait a year to find out, though.

    More details on the election results to follow.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  12. #862
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    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    I know that I am not voting for Red Ruffing or Burleigh Grimes.
    Would you care to explain why?
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  13. #863
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    Here's the player voting, which had 16 valid ballots:

    Code:
    Player......	votes	pct		Player......	votes	pct
    Bagwell, Jeff……..	16	100.0		Bagwell, Jeff……..	16	100.0
    Inao, Kazuhisa……	14	87.5		Bando, Sal………..	1	6.3
    Perez, Tony……….	13	81.3		Beckley, Jake……..	9	56.3
    Caruthers, Bob……	12	75.0		Bender, Chief……..	4	25.0
    Boyer, Ken………..	10	62.5		Bessho, Akira…….	7	43.8
    Johnson, HR	10	62.5		Bonds, Bobby…….	3	18.8
    Moore, Dobie………	10	62.5		Bottomley, Jim…….	2	12.5
    Sutter, Bruce……..	10	62.5		Boyer, Ken………..	10	62.5
    Beckley, Jake……..	9	56.3		Bresnahan, Roger	4	25.0
    Doyle, Larry……….	9	56.3		Bridges, Tommy	1	6.3
    Grimes, Burleigh…..	9	56.3		Browning, Pete……	8	50.0
    Klein, Chuck……….	9	56.3		Canseco, Jose……	1	6.3
    Rice, Sam…………..	9	56.3		Caruthers, Bob……	12	75.0
    Sewell, Joe………..	9	56.3		Childs, Cupid………	2	12.5
    Wallace, Bobby…..	9	56.3		Cravath, Gavvy……	2	12.5
    Browning, Pete……	8	50.0		Cuyler, Kiki…………	5	31.3
    Faber, Red………..	8	50.0		Day, Leon………….	5	31.3
    Ruffing, Red……….	8	50.0		Doyle, Larry……….	9	56.3
    Start, Joe………….	8	50.0		Evans, Darrell…….	6	37.5
    Bessho, Akira…….	7	43.8		Evans, Dwight…….	7	43.8
    Evans, Dwight…….	7	43.8		Faber, Red………..	8	50.0
    Palmeiro, Rafael…..	7	43.8		Franco, John……..	1	6.3
    Quisenberry, Dan..	7	43.8		Glasscock, Jack….	3	18.8
    Rixey, Eppa……….	7	43.8		Gomez, Lefty……..	4	25.0
    Welch, Mickey…….	7	43.8		Grimes, Burleigh…..	9	56.3
    Evans, Darrell…….	6	37.5		Hernandez, Keith…	4	25.0
    Joss, Addie………	6	37.5		Inao, Kazuhisa……	14	87.5
    Ochiai, Hiromitsu….	6	37.5		Johnson, Bob……..	1	6.3
    Oms, Alejandro……	6	37.5		Johnson, HR	10	62.5
    Rice, Jim…………..	6	37.5		Joss, Addie………	6	37.5
    Ryan, Jimmy……….	6	37.5		Kingman, Dave…..	1	6.3
    Sheckard, Jimmy….	6	37.5		Klein, Chuck……….	9	56.3
    Wilson, Hack………	6	37.5		Leach, Toimmy……	2	12.5
    Cuyler, Kiki…………	5	31.3		Lombardi, Ernie……	3	18.8
    Day, Leon………….	5	31.3		Manush, Heinie……	5	31.3
    Manush, Heinie……	5	31.3		Maranville, Rabbit	2	12.5
    Martinez, Edgar……	5	31.3		Martinez, Edgar……	5	31.3
    Smith, Lee…………	5	31.3		Mathews, Bobby…	1	6.3
    Willis, Vic………….	5	31.3		McCormick, Jim……	1	6.3
    Bender, Chief……..	4	25.0		McVey, Cal………..	4	25.0
    Bresnahan, Roger	4	25.0		Moore, Dobie………	10	62.5
    Gomez, Lefty……..	4	25.0		Mullane, Tony……..	3	18.8
    Hernandez, Keith…	4	25.0		Nettles, Graig……..	1	6.3
    McVey, Cal………..	4	25.0		Ochiai, Hiromitsu….	6	37.5
    Pearce, Dickey…….	4	25.0		O'Doul, Lefty………	2	12.5
    Walker, Larry……..	4	25.0		Oliva, Tony………..	2	12.5
    Wynn, Jimmy………	4	25.0		Oliver, Al…………..	2	12.5
    Bonds, Bobby…….	3	18.8		Oms, Alejandro……	6	37.5
    Glasscock, Jack….	3	18.8		O'Neill, Tip…………	1	6.3
    Lombardi, Ernie……	3	18.8		Palmeiro, Rafael…..	7	43.8
    Mullane, Tony……..	3	18.8		Pearce, Dickey…….	4	25.0
    Waner, Lloyd……..	3	18.8		Perez, Tony……….	13	81.3
    Bottomley, Jim…….	2	12.5		Pike,  Lip…………..	1	6.3
    Childs, Cupid………	2	12.5		Poles, Spotswood	2	12.5
    Cravath, Gavvy……	2	12.5		Quisenberry, Dan..	7	43.8
    Leach, Toimmy……	2	12.5		Rice, Jim…………..	6	37.5
    Maranville, Rabbit	2	12.5		Rice, Sam…………..	9	56.3
    O'Doul, Lefty………	2	12.5		Richardson, Hardy	1	6.3
    Oliva, Tony………..	2	12.5		Rixey, Eppa……….	7	43.8
    Oliver, Al…………..	2	12.5		Rosen, Al………….	1	6.3
    Poles, Spotswood	2	12.5		Ruffing, Red……….	8	50.0
    Bando, Sal………..	1	6.3		Ryan, Jimmy……….	6	37.5
    Bridges, Tommy	1	6.3		Sewell, Joe………..	9	56.3
    Canseco, Jose……	1	6.3		Sheckard, Jimmy….	6	37.5
    Franco, John……..	1	6.3		Smith, Lee…………	5	31.3
    Johnson, Bob……..	1	6.3		Smith, Reggie……..	1	6.3
    Kingman, Dave…..	1	6.3		Start, Joe………….	8	50.0
    Mathews, Bobby…	1	6.3		Stephens, Vern…..	1	6.3
    McCormick, Jim……	1	6.3		Sutter, Bruce……..	10	62.5
    Nettles, Graig……..	1	6.3		Walker, Larry……..	4	25.0
    O'Neill, Tip…………	1	6.3		Wallace, Bobby…..	9	56.3
    Pike,  Lip…………..	1	6.3		Waner, Lloyd……..	3	18.8
    Richardson, Hardy	1	6.3		Welch, Mickey…….	7	43.8
    Rosen, Al………….	1	6.3		Willis, Vic………….	5	31.3
    Smith, Reggie……..	1	6.3		Wilson, Hack………	6	37.5
    Stephens, Vern…..	1	6.3		Wynn, Jimmy………	4	25.0
    Youngs, Ross……..	1	6.3		Youngs, Ross……..	1	6.3
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  14. #864
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    Here's the contributor ballot, which had 14 valid ballots:

    Code:
    Contributor	votes	pct		Contributor	votes	pct
    Bolden, Ed	14	100.0		Barlick, Al	1	7.1
    Tsuruoka, K	13	92.9		Bolden, Ed	14	100.0
    O'Doul, Lefty	12	85.7		Bouton, Jim	1	7.1
    Caray, Harry	10	71.4		Buck, Jack	1	7.1
    Canel, Buck	8	57.1		Canel, Buck	8	57.1
    Jobe, Frank	7	50.0		Caray, Harry	10	71.4
    Krichell, Paul	7	50.0		Chandler, Happy	2	14.3
    Shoriki, M	7	50.0		Chylak, Nestor	2	14.3
    Foster, John B.	6	42.9		Conlan, Jocko	2	14.3
    Martin, Billy	6	42.9		Doucet, Jacques	5	35.7
    Doucet, Jacques	5	35.7		Evans, Billy	1	7.1
    Lardner, Ring	5	35.7		Flood, Curt	3	21.4
    Pearce, Dickey	5	35.7		Foster, John B.	6	42.9
    Reach, A.J.	5	35.7		Frick, Ford	3	21.4
    Steinbrenner, G	5	35.7		Greenlee, Gus	1	7.1
    Johnson, Davey	4	28.6		Grimm, Charlie	1	7.1
    Schuerholtz, J	4	28.6		Harris, Bucky	1	7.1
    Flood, Curt	3	21.4		Harris, Vic	2	14.3
    Frick, Ford	3	21.4		Hubbard, Cal	2	14.3
    Mizuhara, S	3	21.4		Jobe, Frank	7	50.0
    Chandler, Happy	2	14.3		Johnson, Davey	4	28.6
    Chylak, Nestor	2	14.3		Krichell, Paul	7	50.0
    Conlan, Jocko	2	14.3		Lardner, Ring	5	35.7
    Harris, Vic	2	14.3		Martin, Billy	6	42.9
    Hubbard, Cal	2	14.3		Mizuhara, S	3	21.4
    Pasquel, Jorge	2	14.3		Murtaugh, Danny	1	7.1
    Pompez, A	2	14.3		Mutrie, Jim	1	7.1
    Ramirez, Felo	2	14.3		Nehf, David	1	7.1
    Smith, Red	2	14.3		Norworth, Jack	1	7.1
    Tyson, Ty	2	14.3		O'Doul, Lefty	12	85.7
    Barlick, Al	1	7.1		Pasquel, Jorge	2	14.3
    Bouton, Jim	1	7.1		Pearce, Dickey	5	35.7
    Buck, Jack	1	7.1		Pompez, A	2	14.3
    Evans, Billy	1	7.1		Ramirez, Felo	2	14.3
    Greenlee, Gus	1	7.1		Reach, A.J.	5	35.7
    Grimm, Charlie	1	7.1		Rice, Grantland	1	7.1
    Harris, Bucky	1	7.1		Schuerholtz, J	4	28.6
    Murtaugh, Danny	1	7.1		Shibe, Ben	1	7.1
    Mutrie, Jim	1	7.1		Shoriki, M	7	50.0
    Nehf, David	1	7.1		Smith, Red	2	14.3
    Norworth, Jack	1	7.1		Steinbrenner, G	5	35.7
    Rice, Grantland	1	7.1		Tsuruoka, K	13	92.9
    Shibe, Ben	1	7.1		Tyson, Ty	2	14.3
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  15. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    On the player side, we elected Jeff Bagwell, Bob Caruthers, Kazuhisa Inao, and Tony Perez.
    Baseball Guru can now die a happy man. :
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

  16. #866
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    This election and/or the next are likely to be the two least participated in this year if history is any guide. It's understandable, given the impending holidays and activities that go with it, plus the end of the semester for those involved in collegiate matters. That said, I encourage you to vote early, even if it means initially posting last month's ballot minus those who were elected, hoping that you get back to add names to fill the holes. You can always PM me to notify me of changes, and they will be recorded. Thanks.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  17. #867
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    AG2004 posted this in the voting thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowtipper View Post

    Are all foreign players allowed to be nominated? For example, are stars of the Hoofdklasse allowed to be nominated?
    The following was posted by Jim Albright in May 2006, and can be found at post 120 of the main discussion thread.

    After AG2004's inquiry on Perucho Cepeda, I'm defining the eligible leagues thusly: the majors or Japan's top professional leagues or various top blackball leagues (Negro Leagues in the US. Cuban Leagues pre 1950, Puerto Rican Winter League pre 1950, Mexican League pre 1950, 1937 Dominican League, California Winter League)

    In fact, if the consensus of voters agrees, I'm willing to open the gates to consideration of any player from any league--but with the significant catch that if you want to do so for a guy who didn't play in the enumerated leagues, you've got to make the case in this thread that the guy was great enough to stand on a par with reasonably good HOF (or any BBF HOF) selections (note the emphasis on the plural). AG2004's [work] on Perucho Cepeda would be a more than acceptable model. Of course, I would look favorably upon efforts modeled on my own work on Japanese players. If your case is reasonable and in good faith, the vote for the candidate will be accepted. If I or anyone else has doubts about the legitimacy of the case, it would be noted in this thread, and while I reserve judgment to myself, I promise to listen to any discussion of the voters in this thread as to whether or not the case is a) reasonable and b) made in good faith. If we go this route, I would require that votes for such candidates would not be accepted within the last ten days of the voting period, to allow time for discussion of the presentation and for a decision.
    (Since Omar Linares was a part-time player in Japan at the tail end of his career, I think he would be technically eligible.)

    Any further consideration of Jim's proposal should be on the main BBFHOF discussion thread; I'll just say here that I'm willing to go along with it.
    I had forgotten this post, but it isn't a big change from my response to Cowtipper. I'd really rather go with this. Linares is probably technically eligible, but the case for him really rests on his Cuban play. I just have difficulty making the case for him given his play in his mid-30's in Japan. Castro's Cuba would be the most fertile ground we haven't addressed, and I'm not comfortable with pinning down how good those leagues were. I doubt Korea or Taiwan have any suitable candidates, and am unconvinced Mexico or Venezuela have, though I am willing to listen. As for European players who never made a splash internationally nor played in the majors, Negro Leagues, or Japan, I find it hard to believe someone could make an acceptable case for them, but if anyone is inclined to try, I'll listen.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  18. #868
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Would you care to explain why (you are not voting for Red Ruffing or Burleigh Grimes)?
    Mainly, because there are too many players between where we are, and where I would be inclined to vote for them. Here are the starting pitchers I am currenty voting for:

    Chief Bender
    Tommy Bridges
    Red Faber
    Addie Joss
    Mickey Welch
    Vic Willis

    There are three spots left to go to Cooperstown-eligible players. I'm looking at 1-2 more pitchers. After that, one of these would need to get the axe.

    When I look at Burleigh Grimes, I see a 1920's version of Jack Morris. Both pitchers who would follow a sterling season with a relative clunker, but manage their way to a very good win total and win%. Both linked heavily to the all-decade-team routine. Only Grimes doesn't come with Morris's postseason reputation. I'm inclined to vote for Morris before Grimes... and Morris is still several pitchers away. "But why then are Faber and Willis on your list?" Well, Faber was more consistent, and Willis did it in less time.

    Ruffing's case is that of a pitcher who took a while to get started. He is much closer than Grimes and I can see the beef taking Willis over him (take the last 13 years of his career, 1933-1947, and you'll see what I mean). I just can't seem to shake looking at that 3.80 career ERA.

    Anyways, I'm looking squarely at Lefty Gomez next, and I may vote for Urban Shocker or Eppa Rixey.
    Last edited by J W; 12-03-2007 at 03:10 PM.

  19. #869
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    Also, since his eligibility coincides with Jeff Bagwell, I would like to see P Kevin Brown added to your Keltner List if that's ok... and yes, he will get my vote this election.
    Last edited by J W; 12-03-2007 at 03:15 PM.

  20. #870
    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    Also, since his eligibility coincides with Jeff Bagwell, I would like to see P Kevin Brown added to your Keltner List if that's ok... and yes, he will get my vote this election.
    I think I'll produce a list for him this weekend.

    In the meantime, I produced some win share totals for pitchers who debuted during the 1980s, as well as totals for Mike Mussina and Pedro Martinez.

    Career win share totals:
    Roger Clemens 440*
    Greg Maddux 389*
    Randy Johnson 315*
    Tom Glavine 314*
    John Smoltz 285*
    Mike Mussina 256*
    Curt Schilling 254*
    Pedro Martinez 250*
    Kevin Brown 241
    Chuck Finley 213
    Orel Hershiser 210
    David Cone 205
    Bret Saberhagen 193
    Kevin Appier 189
    Dwight Gooden 187
    Frank Viola 187
    Mark Langston 184
    *Played in the major leagues in 2007.

    Top three seasons
    [NOTE: Numbers in brackets are after adjustments for short seasons.]
    Roger Clemens 32, 29, 28 - 89
    Greg Maddux 30, 27, 26 - 83 [36, 34, 27 - 97]
    Pedro Martinez 29, 27, 26 - 82
    Randy Johnson 29, 26, 26 - 81
    Kevin Brown 26, 26, 23 - 75
    Bret Saberhagen 28, 24, 23 - 75
    Frank Viola 25, 24, 22 - 71
    Curt Schilling 24, 24, 22 - 70
    Orel Hershiser 25, 23, 21 - 69
    Tom Glavine 23, 23, 22 - 68 [23, 23, 23 - 69]
    Dwight Gooden - 33, 18, 17 - 68
    John Smoltz 27, 21, 18 - 66 [27, 21, 29 - 67]
    Kevin Appier 27, 20, 19 - 66
    Mike Mussina 24, 20, 20 - 64 [25, 24, 23 - 72]
    Chuck Finley 23, 19, 19 - 61 [23, 20, 19 - 62]
    Mark Langston 21, 20, 20 - 61
    David Cone 21, 20, 19 - 60 [28, 21, 21 - 70]

    Top five consecutive seasons
    [Numbers in brackets are after adjustments for short seasons.]
    Greg Maddux 131 [145]
    Randy Johnson 126
    Roger Clemens 125
    Pedro Martinez 117
    Kevin Brown 114
    Orel Hershiser 102
    Tom Glavine 101 [106]
    Curt Schilling 101
    Frank Viola 100
    John Smoltz 99 [101]
    Bret Saberhagen 98
    Kevin Appier 95 [102]
    Dwight Gooden 95
    David Cone 93 [103]
    Mike Mussina 89 [96]
    Chuck Finley 86 [87]
    Mark Langston 83

    -----
    Kevin Brown has the fifth-best peak in this group, trailing only the "big four" of Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, and Martinez. However, I don't know how his comparables in the career group (Schilling, Mussina, and Martinez) are going to come out in the end.

    I still have to take a look at how Brown does in a year-by-year comparison with other pitchers before producing my list and a conclusion.

  21. #871
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    With 10 votes cast, it's time for the weekly update on where we stand in the voting. A couple of the voters may add some names to their ballots, and if history is any guide, we'll lose a few voters this election and next.

    Nobody has more than eight votes, and I'll assume we have 16 voters, which will mean that everyone needs to get to twelve. The eights thus need four of the remaining six, and Ken Boyer meets that standard. The other two eights have a much more difficult path, as they each have the support of only one of the six who voted last election but have yet to vote in this one. Those two are Chuck Klein and Same Rice. I'd say Rice and Klein are longshots at this point.

    The sevens need five of six, and none of them have that much support from those yet to vote. However, Larry Doyle, Grant ("Home Run") Johnson, and Joe Sewell all have the support of four of those voters. They have a real chance of making it. Red Faber has the support of three of the outstanding voters, and thus has an outside chance of making it this election. The other two sevens are longshots. Jake Beckley has the support of only two of the remaining voters, and Pete Browning has the support of only one.

    The sixes need to run the table, and get a minimum of six votes. That's tough for anyone. Dobie Moore has the support of five of the remaining voters, so he is around tossup territory in terms of his chances. Red Ruffing and Bruce Sutter have the support of four of the remaining voters, which makes them long shots. Burleigh Grimes and Hack Wilson are definite longshots, Wilson far more so than Grimes. Wilson didn't get any votes from the remaining voters last time, while Grimes got three.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  22. #872
    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    Also, since his eligibility coincides with Jeff Bagwell, I would like to see P Kevin Brown added to your Keltner List if that's ok... and yes, he will get my vote this election.
    The list for Kevin Brown is up, and I see him as deserving of votes for the BBFHOF.

    We can make a group consisting of Kevin Brown, Stan Coveleski, Don Drysdale, Wes Ferrell, and Joe McGinnity. All five of those players have two things in common.

    First, for any of those five pitchers, the only starters among their peers to beat them in win shares in their best five consecutive seasons are obvious Hall of Famers. Coveleski, for example, trails only Walter Johnson and Grover Cleveland Alexander among his peers. Drysdale is fourth among his era's pitchers; the three ahead of him are Juan Marichal, Sandy Koufax, and Bob Gibson. Kevin Brown is fifth behind Clemens, Maddux, Randy Johnson, and Pedro Martinez.

    Second, all five of those pitchers have career win share totals in the 230-270 range.

    Kevin Brown is the type of pitcher we have found worthy of the BBFHOF, and, as such, is deserving of election.

  23. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post

    The sevens need five of six, and none of them have that much support from those yet to vote. However, Larry Doyle, Grant ("Home Run") Johnson, and Joe Sewell all have the support of four of those voters. They have a real chance of making it. Red Faber has the support of three of the outstanding voters, and thus has an outside chance of making it this election. The other two sevens are longshots. Jake Beckley has the support of only two of the remaining voters, and Pete Browning has the support of only one.
    Faber will be added to my ballot for this cycle. That will make it four out of six for him.

  24. #874
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    Quote Originally Posted by AG2004 View Post
    The list for Kevin Brown is up, and I see him as deserving of votes for the BBFHOF.

    We can make a group consisting of Kevin Brown, Stan Coveleski, Don Drysdale, Wes Ferrell, and Joe McGinnity. All five of those players have two things in common.

    First, for any of those five pitchers, the only starters among their peers to beat them in win shares in their best five consecutive seasons are obvious Hall of Famers. Coveleski, for example, trails only Walter Johnson and Grover Cleveland Alexander among his peers. Drysdale is fourth among his era's pitchers; the three ahead of him are Juan Marichal, Sandy Koufax, and Bob Gibson. Kevin Brown is fifth behind Clemens, Maddux, Randy Johnson, and Pedro Martinez.

    Second, all five of those pitchers have career win share totals in the 230-270 range.

    Kevin Brown is the type of pitcher we have found worthy of the BBFHOF, and, as such, is deserving of election.
    How does the Mitchell Report revelation affect that conclusion, if at all?
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  25. #875
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    How does the Mitchell Report revelation affect that conclusion, if at all?
    I'm going to have to drop Kevin Brown from my queue for the BBFHOF. Although I am keeping the pre-Mitchell Report conclusion on the Keltner List thread for historical reasons, I have added an introductory note and a post-Mitchell Report conclusion to Brown's Keltner List post.

    According to Kirk Radomski's allegations, Brown started doing business with him in "2000 or 2001." If you take 1995-1999 as Brown's five best consecutive seasons, he still has the fifth-best peak of his contemporaries, but his margin over Tom Glavine becomes very narrow: 109 vs. 106 with season-length adjustments.

    More significantly, Brown had 200 win shares at the end of the 2000 season. The following is a list of Brown's single-season win share totals during the 21st century.

    2001 - 11
    2002 - 1
    2003 - 20
    2004 - 9
    2005 - 0

    Brown probably wouldn't have been able to play in the majors after 2002 without these substances; Radomski did claim that he had supplied Brown repeatedly over a three-year period, and each supply contained multiple kits.

    There are only two starting pitchers in the BBFHOF with fewer than 230 career win shares: Sandy Koufax and Dizzy Dean. Both of them had monster peaks; Brown, on the other hand, doesn't have the peak necessary to compensate for a career value of 200-210 win shares.

    If Brown started to use these substances before he came into contact with Radomski, the case for Brown becomes much worse. Since Radomski claims that Brown was already "very knowledgeable" about HGH at the time of their first conversation, one can reasonably believe that he may have been using these substances before 2000.

    As Kevin Brown most likely would have not reached my standards for induction without the use of certain chemicals, I have to remove him from my queue for the BBFHOF.

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