JC Homerun, double

[Comm]

I think so. The hands should be on a different path at this point in the swing, I think. This is where she stops rotating (due to being too early) and all that's left is this move you see....Throwing the hands, disconnect.
The swing needs about another frame of connection to be close.
LClifton

Agreed,

I am sorry, but if you want to teach her to throw her hands through the strike zone I suggest that she better release her top hand on contact. However, I wasn't overly impressed with her finish; it needs improving!

Go to this page ( http://www.batspeed.com/mechanics.html ), and checkout the swing on the right. That particular swing is mean't for a long-ball, rather than an easy pop.

[swingbuster]

She needs to understand that the rotation starts before full weight and then completes rotation around the fully weighted front leg.

Please allow me to regress and make a point about rotation into toe touch.

MLB players get an average of minus 28 degrees hip cock in the load.

They can afford to rotate into toe touch better than a swing that gets zero degrees hip coil while striding.

Go back and look at the clip...no hip coil. She cannot uncoil what did not coil. Teaching rotation into toe touch is questiobable. Does it happen and to what degree and what determined whether or not it can? Depends...pitch location inside? previous coiling in the preswing.

Your better off making sure they coil during the stride than worrying about uncoiling in the swing. The later is dependant on the former

[Comm]

Please allow me to regress and make a point about rotation into toe touch.

MLB players get an average of minus 28 degrees hip cock in the load.

They can afford to rotate into toe touch better than a swing that gets zero degrees hip coil while striding.

Go back and look at the clip...no hip coil. She cannot uncoil what did not coil. Teaching rotation into toe touch is questiobable. Does it happen and to what degree and what determined whether or not it can? Depends...pitch location inside? previous coiling in the preswing.

Your better off making sure they coil during the stride than worrying about uncoiling in the swing. The later is dependant on the former

Dude, you just have to look at her lead arm and hand path on contact to know where she's going wrong. I don't know why a man with your experience is ignoring this fact?

[fungo22]

I wasn't overly impressed with her finish; it needs improving!

He wasn't impressed. Improvement needed. Get on this, LC.

Not on the beginning. On the finish. As in after she hits the ball.

[swingbuster]

Dude, you just have to look at her lead arm and hand path on contact to know where she's going wrong. I don't know why a man with your experience is ignoring this fact?

I was not on that subject particularly. I do not disagree with you. I went back way back in the thread reading and looking at the clip and found that statement and wanted to weight in on it.

I think you had your point in the bag.

Sorry for the comparsion with golf but the finish can be a mirror image of the launch. Finding bad finishes can trigger thoughts about going back upstream and find a bad start.

Everytime you find no hip coil you will find compensation somewhere else and it takes many forms. When the shoulder thrust is deminished from weak hip moves then the arms and hands are all that is left to power the swing.

THere are few perfect swings. Most are suboptimal. Where and why do optimal mechanics break down?

Fun thing to speculate with....

[ssarge]

I am sorry, but if you want to teach her to throw her hands through the strike zone I suggest that she better release her top hand on contact. However, I wasn't overly impressed with her finish; it needs improving!

I am quite sure he DOES NOT want to teach her to throw her hands through the strike zone.

I've always been puzzled by extensive comments about the "finish." Since the ball is gone, I have just never been able to see the relevance. Are you applying some backwards chaining principles from what you see in the finish?

That said, this hitter is obviously early (and making the best of it to "salvage" contact), and I think it is important to understand WHY she is early. Could have just misread the pitch, but I doubt it. She is learning to rotate really, really well using very efficient mechanics. My guess is that her increasingly efficient and powerful rotation has probably taken a frame or more out of her swing in the past months. And that her brain hasn't yet figured out just how much time she has.

I'm tempted to say that is a good problem, but it isn't. It's hard to fix. It IS a problem resulting from a very good improvement. AND, it is a problem that ONCE fixed, can lead to some seriously good performance. Having that extra frame to read the pitch is freakin' huge, and she's got it now, and once her brain figures out how to use it, she's going to be extremely effective.

Well, even more effective than she already is - from what I understand, she's playing at an elite level already, and doing extremely well.

Regards,

Scott

[LClifton]

Thanks for the input.

I am sorry, but if you want to teach her to throw her hands through the strike zone I suggest that she better release her top hand on contact.

No, actually I am sorry. I never thought of going back to teaching her to throw the hands more effectively, but if I ever do, I will know to add the "better top hand release" cue you've provided.
It is a game swing. Things tend to look different in a game..
8 years of throwing the hands won't be overcome in 6 months (on the field anyway)..

However, I wasn't overly impressed with her finish; it needs improving!

Her finish was actually quite good, she got to run around all 4 bases at her own pace...
Actually, I'm thinking you mean the finish in her swing, and would agree.
Did you like the start?
This was a good result with some sub-optimal mechanics. It is a work in progress.
I was a little excited about this clip because it was the first of 3 home runs on the day for her. Then Sunday she hit the game winning double to left center in the Championship game. And.....this is the one swing that I got on tape.

Go to this page ( http://www.batspeed.com/mechanics.html ), and checkout the swing on the right. That particular swing is mean't for a long-ball, rather than an easy pop.

Does it show a better finish?

Hey, just pokin' a little fun at you....I am open to any mechanics suggestions you may have.

LClifton

[LClifton]

Everytime you find no hip coil you will find compensation somewhere else and it takes many forms. When the shoulder thrust is deminished from weak hip moves then the arms and hands are all that is left to power the swing.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
A better pelvic load is something we are working on.

LClifton

[Mark H]

Dude, you just have to look at her lead arm and hand path on contact to know where she's going wrong. I don't know why a man with your experience is ignoring this fact?

Actually, this time SB is right. You have to realize your education is incomplete though you know Mankin. Though his contribution was important, he's just part of the story and part of it he got wrong. This is old news.

[Mark H]

He wasn't impressed. Improvement needed. Get on this, LC.

Not on the beginning. On the finish. As in after she hits the ball.

The problem with subtle humor is, you have to be paying attention.

[Comm]

Ok, after contact, the bat has no effect on the ball. I am saying that her lead arm is extended too far out for a nice rotation. The only reason she crossed all 4 bases is because the fence is only 180ft -- at most. If you were to of swung, with those mechanics, in a park with 390ft Power-Alleys, it would of resulted in a pop-fly in the outfield. Her shoulder Rotation was a complete lag. As I will state again, checkout the swing model on www.batspeed.com/mechanics.html, and you will get an idea what her mechanics should look like.

[Comm]

I am not trying to be a Mankin poster boy. The idea is to improve her swings.
I could show you a video of Barry Bonds being fooled by the pitch, but still follow basic swing mechanics.

[dannyboy]

SSarge,

Happy Easter!


“I've always been puzzled by extensive comments about the "finish." Since the ball is gone, I have just never been able to see the relevance. Are you applying some backwards chaining principles from what you see in the finish?”


Maybe you might find a possible answer in a prior quote:


“…, my personal philosophy has become to look as far back in the swing as I can, believing that many positions attained in the swing are effects of very early action. And I don't really have a foundation for THAT belief, other than that it seems intuitively reasonable to me. So I try to employ it. Further, I believe that tiny adjustments early in the swing can have SIGNIFICANT ripple effect on the down-stream. Right or wrong, that is MY bias.”

[Ohfor]

As I will state again, checkout the swing model on www.batspeed.com/mechanics.html, and you will get an idea what her mechanics should look like.

Sounds like you're in kindergarten. At least that is what Batspeed offers.

Study up.

Come back with questions.

[ssarge]

Ray:

Exactly as I still feel.

I stop at contact.

Scott

[Mark H]

I am not trying to be a Mankin poster boy. The idea is to improve her swings.
I could show you a video of Barry Bonds being fooled by the pitch, but still follow basic swing mechanics.

What I'm trying to say is if you know Mankin AND Epstein you still don't know that much and a lot of what you do know is wrong. Maybe I underestimate your education but I'm pretty sure you overestimate Mankin. The reading list after Epstein and Mankin is setpro and Englishbey.

[Mark H]

Further, I believe that tiny adjustments early in the swing can have SIGNIFICANT ripple effect on the down-stream. Right or wrong, that is MY bias.”

No doubt. Paul said the same. It's basic.

[tom.guerry]

Clif-

As I see more and more clips of PCR kids, I keep seeing this accentuated early lateral shift of the hips back which I suppose is somehow then going to give you a great "pelvic load" when they shift forward.

That may work for the PCR spinhook (logical extension of the mistaken Nyman "turn back hip into front" cue), but it is not on the road to an mlb pattern.Starting the swing this way is at the very least making a good mlb swing pattern extremely difficult (forcing sway instead of coil) and more likely will be completely incompatible with the mlb pattern.

What's up with that ?

[LClifton]

As I see more and more clips of PCR kids, I keep seeing this accentuated early lateral shift of the hips back which I suppose is somehow then going to give you a great "pelvic load" when they shift forward.

First, you read an awful lot into the post I made referencing "We are working on pelvic load."
And, never did I imply that by "shifting" back,,,, that this would somehow give you a great pelvic load going forward." Did I...?
If so, please point out to me where.
There is no pelvic load to look at here Tom.
You may be pleased to know that we are, however, working on hip cok?

That may work for the PCR spinhook (logical extension of the mistaken Nyman "turn back hip into front" cue),

Spinhook? One of us certainly misunderstood the back hip into the front cue.

but it is not on the road to an mlb pattern.

As I would expect you to say....

Here's a question for you,

How(edited to exclude: in the ----!) would you know what IS on the road to an MLB swing?

You have never stated,
With one of the students I work with we are doing x,y, or z.
Here is a clip of one of my best students that I think may be getting close,

Nothing, nothing and more of nothing,
What in the world would you know about a swing being on its way to anything?

Starting the swing this way is at the very least making a good mlb swing pattern extremely difficult (forcing sway instead of coil) and more likely will be completely incompatible with the mlb pattern.

Do you have one thing good to say? You are obviously NOT a coach of any kind or you would know the kind of critique that you offer is not
ON THE ROAD to effective teaching.
What do you do in the middle of a lesson....
Throw up your hands and state,
"This is not on the road to a MLB pattern."

What's up with that ?

I have asked ernestly for your opinions. And you continue to find ways to just be negative, needling, and condescending,,,
What is up with that?

Many have offered their assistance, with a huge amount of gratitude from me.
They have sent me clips, break downs of her swing, thoughts for correction, etc. and I have felt very fortunate to have those people take enough time to want to assist.

[tom.guerry]

Clif-

Seems to me that there is a lot of confusion on what the destination is and what it looks like.

How to get there may be putting the cart before the horse.

Nyman has some good stuff like:

If you don't know the destination,any road will get you there.

Just looking at the initial clip in this thread shows a LOT of sway.

[4for4]

Just looking at the initial clip in this thread shows a LOT of sway.

And looking at the clips on epstein's site shows a LOT of back foot spinning bat draggers. This is to be expected given the flawed information on the non-high level mlb pattern DVD sold by epstein. Looks like they were confused on what the destination was and took the wrong road, probably via horse and buggy.

[tom.guerry]

4x4-

That was a little better than your recent attempts.

All available systems have flaws. Epstein's has most high level stuff right/most minor flaws.

There are risks that you cure lunging by back foot spinning. There are risks you do not find a goos upper body/arm load when you go hands free.

There are risks that you lunge again instead of making the right tilt adjustment for up ball, but these are all manageable flaws that do not change the nature of the system.

The Lau systen likewise has plusses and minusses.

The Nyman one has serious high level flaws (assuming destination is high level mlb swing) and fixing them would require changing the whole nature of the system.

Alternatively, you could just understand you will get to a different destination that may be fine with metal bats.

In any case, understand the destinations ARE different.

[4for4]

4x4-

That was a little better than your recent attempts.

All available systems have flaws. Epstein's has most high level stuff right/most minor flaws.

There are risks that you cure lunging by back foot spinning. There are risks you do not find a goos upper body/arm load when you go hands free.

There are risks that you lunge again instead of making the right tilt adjustment for up ball, but these are all manageable flaws that do not change the nature of the system.

The Lau systen likewise has plusses and minusses.

The Nyman one has serious high level flaws (assuming destination is high level mlb swing) and fixing them would require changing the whole nature of the system.

Alternatively, you could just understand you will get to a different destination that may be fine with metal bats.

In any case, understand the destinations ARE different.

Englishbey gets you well on your way to the high level mlb pattern. I have found no risks in going this route. I don't know how Nyman works with kids on a field and I'm not talking about Nyman anyway.

Looking at the clips on epstein's site shows a LOT of back foot spinning bat draggers. This is to be expected given the flawed information on the non-high level mlb pattern DVD sold by epstein.

Alternatively, you could just understand you will get to a different destination that may be fine with broom sticks.

Understand the destinations ARE different.

[tom.guerry]

Perhaps you could state the Englishbey dogma here.

I understand there could be intellectual property concerns,however, I think even Steve said his presence was necessary to do drills right so I think talking details would be far more likely to INCREASE his business rather than threaten it.

Otherwise this particulr topic can't go much farther.

[LClifton]

Seems to me that there is a lot of confusion on what the destination is and what it looks like.

No, but what IS confusing is your destination.

Not that I need to justify anything to someone that is obviously needling, but do you know,

What we study and the clips we review?

What we work on in practice?

Tom, just to alleviate any confusion on your part, these are Rhetorical questions,

And, never did I imply that by "shifting" back,,,, that this would somehow give you a great pelvic load going forward." Did I...?
If so, please point out to me where.

You forgot to address this, in your babble about confusion.

There is some confusion, to imply that there is none, would be an error on my part.
Not so much on the destination, but the application, how for example would you help a hitter who has a tendency to
stride too far?
rotate incompletely?
Not stay connected for quite long enough?
Improperly load the rear shoulder?
Can't hit a ball opposite field?
What praytell, would you do with these?
Again, these are rhetorical questions as you would actually have to work with someone to have a clue of how one would go about fixing these issues.

OR.....you could just
Beat around on the keyboard and see what you can "stir up" next.
It's O.K. I'm awake and really don't mind the challenge. I'm also in tune with someone like you and what you are doing.

C'mon Tom, you read way too much into the post.
Are we havin fun yet?
Actually your questions do solidify, for me, the destination.
Look at the clip again, see foot plant and then measure hip slide.
Look at the homerun clip see foot plant and then measure hip slide.
In fact, Tom, put it in a clip and draw on it the part that shows hip slide.
As a person that spends as much time as you on the computer, you do know how to do that, right?
rhetorical.
Are you trying to help?
If so, offer some. Tell me you worked with a hitter with similar tendencies and this is what you did.....
Or was that you that PM'd me under a different name, telling me to send the clip to Mankin? Or is that just a coincidence that you would mention the same thing in another thread?
Hmmmmm.