Discussion on Wood Bats

[MrUniverse09]

Except basically xbat which prices their bats at like 100 bucks a pop!

[MrUniverse09]

Ok found a few cheaper ones.


Slam Bats. Now I think its down between these two




It has a tapered medium sized 15/16” handle flaring to a very large knob with a full power hitter’s 2 5/8” barrel. The large knob serves as a counter weight making the bat feel very light and balanced. The flared handle to the knob protects the sensitive hamate bone from bruising and with a weight range not lighter than –2.


And this one





This is the ultimate thin handle, big barreled bat. The diameter of the handle is smaller at its contact point with the knob. The barrel is turned as full as possible. Handle is 7/8" to 15/16" with a conventional knob and a 2 5/8" barrel. Weight range is best at no lighter than a -2. This is an end loaded bat.





Anybody that knows more about these type of things want to chime in? I'm thinking the end loaded bat is more my style.

[fungo22]

Except basically xbat which prices their bats at like 100 bucks a pop!

Same reason nobody makes aluminum chopsticks? I don't know. I've never heard of a bamboo bat. What is the advantage of one?

[MrUniverse09]

Same reason nobody makes aluminum chopsticks? I don't know. I've never heard of a bamboo bat. What is the advantage of one?

very hard and resistent to cracking

[BMH]

The reason most of your bigger companies such as LS and Rawlings don't offer large barrel maple bats is they don't have enough lightweight timber. Most of your major and minor league players use big barrel bats like the C243 and 456B. So most of the light weight timber they get in to make those type of bats are saved for these players.

[MrUniverse09]

The reason most of your bigger companies such as LS and Rawlings don't offer large barrel maple bats is they don't have enough lightweight timber. Most of your major and minor league players use big barrel bats like the C243 and 456B. So most of the light weight timber they get in to make those type of bats are saved for these players.

Makes sense.


So anyone have any input on those two bats? Any benefit to the large knob besides weight distribution? If not, I'll get the barrel heavy one because I hit better with them.

[hellborn]

The reason most of your bigger companies such as LS and Rawlings don't offer large barrel maple bats is they don't have enough lightweight timber. Most of your major and minor league players use big barrel bats like the C243 and 456B. So most of the light weight timber they get in to make those type of bats are saved for these players.

Interesting idea, but I thought that most pro players used bats that were fairly heavy compared to store bats. I have a Phil Plantier personal model auto bat that just weighs a ton, and every time I have been able to sort through player's old bats (usually broken) at a team store, I have been very impressed by the heft of most of them. Made sense to me that men who swung bats for a living and had access to good strength training equipment might be comfortable with a bat heavier than the ones I would use.
I also wondered if this was why LS came out with their line of light "pro stock" bats...because that was just the kind of wood pros would not like, so why not sell it to the masses at an artificial premium!
I am most interested to be corrected on this issue by anybody who has some real inside knowledge...

[hellborn]

Makes sense.


So anyone have any input on those two bats? Any benefit to the large knob besides weight distribution? If not, I'll get the barrel heavy one because I hit better with them.

I think that Mt. Rushmore bat company made some maple bats with huge barrels...but, I do have to mention that I was not really impressed by the quality control on the bats I bought from them. Never quite got both models I wanted, and one of the cups was severely off-center. But, they were cheap!

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Interesting idea, but I thought that most pro players used bats that were fairly heavy compared to store bats. I have a Phil Plantier personal model auto bat that just weighs a ton, and every time I have been able to sort through player's old bats (usually broken) at a team store, I have been very impressed by the heft of most of them. Made sense to me that men who swung bats for a living and had access to good strength training equipment might be comfortable with a bat heavier than the ones I would use.
I also wondered if this was why LS came out with their line of light "pro stock" bats...because that was just the kind of wood pros would not like, so why not sell it to the masses at an artificial premium!
I am most interested to be corrected on this issue by anybody who has some real inside knowledge...

Hellborn,

The big leaguers get the best of the best. They won't even try to make bats from trees that are less than 50 or 60 years old, and sometimes they only get two or three Major League bats from a single tree. That bats we get at the sporting goods store, is wood that wasn't good enough to make a big league bat out of. It might have uneven grain, or knots, or whatever. Those guys get the slim pickins, and then from there, most of the big players, select their personal bats from those.

As far as bat weight, I believe Mac used a 35 ounce in '98 and that was one of the heaviest of recent times. Mo Vaughn with a 36 ouncer used the heaviest. Most players probably use a 34/31 today, give or take. Edgar was known for ordering bats down to the tenth of an ounce and weighing them in the clubhouse to make sure. He'd have three or four bats that varied only by a couple of ounces to choose from, depending on who was pitching that night. These guys have it made.

Babe used a 36/42 in 1919, and then from 36/48-54, before going back down in weight as he gained weight.

Simmons, probably because he stepped in the bucket so bad, used a 38/46.

Gehrig - 34/38

Pujols - 34/32

Bonds, starting in 1999 - 34/32 (choking up it turns into more like a 32/29)

It would be pretty interesting to find a complete list somewhere. I think Wee Willie Keeler only used a 30 inch bat, no word on what Gaedel used

[BMH]

Sultan is correct, the bats have been getting lighter and lighter over the years. Barry Bonds likes his bats to weigh 31.8oz. +o/ - .1oz. He'll send back anything else. Marcus Giles uses a 34/30 bat. Pujols is pretty picky, he usually orders a 31.5oz. bat but if they're off he likes them on the heavy side up to 32oz. He'll send back anything under 31.5oz and he likes to see the grain of the maple in his bats. Giambi likes a 34/31.5 +/- .3oz.

The first thing some players do is weigh their bats. If they're not correct they won't use them. LS tries to make thier pro bats +/- .5oz. to what a player orders. Minors get +/- 1oz. Luckily there are a lot of players like Posada who will pick up the bat and swing it. If it feels good he'll use it. He usually orders a 34/33. He usually gets 34/34.

Pro Stock Light bats are made for players who like lighter bats. Light weight timber is used that will give at least a 3-4oz. drop over the length of the bat.

Maple is the bane of wood bat manufacturers. I guess I should explain....Say you cut from trees 100 pieces of maple. Only 40 of those pieces will be of Pro quality. Of those 40, only 15 will be lightweight that is need to make the bats for your Pujols and Bonds. Of those 15 pieces, 6-8 will be thrown out for warpage or defects at the factory. That's no way to make money.... That is why SAM bat who made the maple bat famous is going bankrupt. He has no outlet for his extra maple. LS turns all their extra maple into storeline bats. So the quality of the maple you get in the stores is the same used in the pros.

[hellborn]

Sultan is correct, the bats have been getting lighter and lighter over the years. Barry Bonds likes his bats to weigh 31.8oz. +o/ - .1oz. He'll send back anything else. Marcus Giles uses a 34/30 bat. Pujols is pretty picky, he usually orders a 31.5oz. bat but if they're off he likes them on the heavy side up to 32oz. He'll send back anything under 31.5oz and he likes to see the grain of the maple in his bats. Giambi likes a 34/31.5 +/- .3oz.

The first thing some players do is weigh their bats. If they're not correct they won't use them. LS tries to make thier pro bats +/- .5oz. to what a player orders. Minors get +/- 1oz. Luckily there are a lot of players like Posada who will pick up the bat and swing it. If it feels good he'll use it. He usually orders a 34/33. He usually gets 34/34.

Pro Stock Light bats are made for players who like lighter bats. Light weight timber is used that will give at least a 3-4oz. drop over the length of the bat.

Maple is the bane of wood bat manufacturers. I guess I should explain....Say you cut from trees 100 pieces of maple. Only 40 of those pieces will be of Pro quality. Of those 40, only 15 will be lightweight that is need to make the bats for your Pujols and Bonds. Of those 15 pieces, 6-8 will be thrown out for warpage or defects at the factory. That's no way to make money.... That is why SAM bat who made the maple bat famous is going bankrupt. He has no outlet for his extra maple. LS turns all their extra maple into storeline bats. So the quality of the maple you get in the stores is the same used in the pros.

Great info, BMH and Sultan. I see your point about maple, as compared to ash...I have noticed over the years that many of the LS 9 and 180 lower grade store bats were extremely light, but the maple store bats usually seem to be very heavy.
Didn't know that SAM Bat was in such trouble...I do see them at some stores around here and bought on in the fall. I do notice that even the store bats are handmade, which cannot make much economic sense.
I'm wondering if either one of you is familiar with the LS maple grades...I bought a couple of 125 M159 "Pro Maple" bats last year, and found that they really shocked the crud out of my hands when I tried them. I don't think that I was the problem, as I hit really well with some ash bats that same day. I noticed now that the pros seem to use M9 grade LS maple bats, which are a little pricier in the stores, and the bat style that I bought is now called "Hard Maple". I noticed that Bellhorn used an M9 grade bat hitting his HR off Tavarez in WS Game 1 '04, and Manny seems to use the same type. Are my maple M159s made of a different, and possibly inferior, maple than the real pro LS maple bats?
I'm very excited to try my SAM Bat this spring...

[BMH]

The M159 and M9 maples are all turned out of the same stock of wood. The difference is how they are turned. All M9 maples are turned on a CNC lathe with tolerances of +/- .004in. Considering this is a wood product those type of tolerance are extremly good. They are then completed in the Pro Bat department by craftsmen who been on the job no less than 35 years. The M159's are turned using tracer lathes which has a tolerance of +/- .015in. They are finished in the storeline department which is more automated.

As for SAM, I had heard his deal/relationship with Wilson is gone. Some of his bats that I've gotten from spring training no longer have the Wilson logo on them and his models are getting smaller to make weight. I also heard he was told not to try and sell bats at the Yankee training camp since he hasn't fulfilled orders from December yet.

[hellborn]

The M159 and M9 maples are all turned out of the same stock of wood. The difference is how they are turned. All M9 maples are turned on a CNC lathe with tolerances of +/- .004in. Considering this is a wood product those type of tolerance are extremly good. They are then completed in the Pro Bat department by craftsmen who been on the job no less than 35 years. The M159's are turned using tracer lathes which has a tolerance of +/- .015in. They are finished in the storeline department which is more automated.

As for SAM, I had heard his deal/relationship with Wilson is gone. Some of his bats that I've gotten from spring training no longer have the Wilson logo on them and his models are getting smaller to make weight. I also heard he was told not to try and sell bats at the Yankee training camp since he hasn't fulfilled orders from December yet.

Most fascinating...thanks for the information!
Maybe this is telling me that I'm just not a maple guy...or, that I need to work with them and get used to them. I would have sworn that SAM was taking over the world from seeing how popular his bats were in the majors, but I guess popularity does not necessarily equal making money.
I take it that you deal with bats professionally?

[BMH]

I'm the production coordinator for LS's wood bat division. I take care of the storeline and Pro bat departments. I am also the Pro bat model designer and CNC programmer.

Personally I didn't know SAM was in trouble until our Pro reps came back with stories from equipment managers complaining about him not delivering bats on time. I then heard that he came to us wanting us to buy him. We told him no.

I would hate to see him close shop, competition leads to better products.

[TrojanSkipper]

BMH:
Where are the trees cut that you guys at LS use? I'm a baseball and geography nut and find this all very interesting about your production of wood bats. thanks

[BMH]

Most all the ash and maple come from upstate NY and Penn. We closed two mills to concentrate wood production at facilities that are generating more lightweight timber. We found that certain areas will produce better quality wood than others. Our beech comes from Europe.

[hellborn]

I'm the production coordinator for LS's wood bat division. I take care of the storeline and Pro bat departments. I am also the Pro bat model designer and CNC programmer.

Personally I didn't know SAM was in trouble until our Pro reps came back with stories from equipment managers complaining about him not delivering bats on time. I then heard that he came to us wanting us to buy him. We told him no.

I would hate to see him close shop, competition leads to better products.

Fascinating! This explains your incredibly detailed answers...
I have wondered for years if there is a record of which LS bat models were designed for which players. I know a few, like my beloved M159 is Musial, C271 is Jose Cardenal, S2 is Vern Stephens (although the low number makes me wonder about that), etc. I am very curious about a few others, especially S44, which I think I might like even better than the M159.
I was hoping that some info might be in the book that came out on LS a few years ago, and there was some there, but not much.
Any chance that you'll ever have a maple S44 available in stores? :^)
I guess I should figure out if I really like maple before I ask that...maybe I'm just too old to switch wood types.

I should probably mention that I'm a longtime wood bat fanatic...I probably have about 40-50 lying around, most for use (eventually) and some collectible/interesting. About 3/4 of these are LS, I think.

[BMH]

The assigning of model numbers to players had to be one of the worst projects ever done at this company. It started in the late 30's/ early 40's. They would assign numbers by who was in order for bats that day. Meaning, the first person with an "S" as the first letter of their last name got the first number, Wes Schulmerick = S1 and the next guy who ordered bats with an "S" was Vern Stephens = S2. That is why Jackie Robinson is the R17 and Ruth is the R43.

I don't think we'll be using the S44 again anytime soon. It can still be ordered by minor and pros. We are introducing the T159 (it's a T141 w/ C331 knob) in the M9 line. In Pro Stock we are coming out with the H176 (H172 w/ cone) and the M280 (M110 with C331 knob).

Almost forgot, Mel Butch Simon = S44.

[hellborn]

The assigning of model numbers to players had to be one of the worst projects ever done at this company. It started in the late 30's/ early 40's. They would assign numbers by who was in order for bats that day. Meaning, the first person with an "S" as the first letter of their last name got the first number, Wes Schulmerick = S1 and the next guy who ordered bats with an "S" was Vern Stephens = S2. That is why Jackie Robinson is the R17 and Ruth is the R43.

I don't think we'll be using the S44 again anytime soon. It can still be ordered by minor and pros. We are introducing the T159 (it's a T141 w/ C331 knob) in the M9 line. In Pro Stock we are coming out with the H176 (H172 w/ cone) and the M280 (M110 with C331 knob).

Almost forgot, Mel Butch Simon = S44.

Wow...amazing info. Thank you very much.
Would you be able to share which M9 models Bellhorn and Manny use?
I am also curious which player the P72 is associated with.
I'm going to have to figure out who Mel Butch Simon is...

[BMH]

Manny has ordered for Spring training the P72, R237, and the S318.

Bellhorn I think uses the M272, but don't quote me on that one, I'll have to look when I get back to work.

I'll have to look up the P72 when I get back.

As for Mel Simon he could be a player or someone important enough to get a bat. Some models, such as the P7 was made for a hardware store that sold a lot of bats. Others were made for ball clubs. Not all of them are associated with a player.

[hellborn]

Manny has ordered for Spring training the P72, R237, and the S318.

Bellhorn I think uses the M272, but don't quote me on that one, I'll have to look when I get back to work.

I'll have to look up the P72 when I get back.

As for Mel Simon he could be a player or someone important enough to get a bat. Some models, such as the P7 was made for a hardware store that sold a lot of bats. Others were made for ball clubs. Not all of them are associated with a player.

BMH, thanks so much for the info. I hope that I'm not being a pest, but it is fascinating to me to be able to finally gather some of this information from somebody who is really in the know.
I saw my first C331 at Modell's today...really interesting bat! There were also a bunch of T141s in ash, I had only seen a couple of these ever in stores before this year. There were also a bunch of maple Mizunos, mostly M62s which looked pretty nice, but the lacquer on those things is SO slippery. Hafta use pine tar on those mothers.
The thing that really struck me...I couldn't find a single bat over 33 inches. Seems like the 34s have become harder and harder to find as time passes, and I won't use anything shorter.
Mel "Butch" Simon played about half a season for the White Sox in the early 30s, hit for a decent average but next to no power.

[BMH]

I was wrong, Bellhorn has been using the O76 (David Ortiz).

The P72 was made for Leslie Pinkham.

Don't worry about the questions I enjoy answering them. That's one of the reasons I found this sight. I'm interviewing for the museum curator position here at work. One of the requirements is to teach/ have lessons for grade school children. I figured I'd look up some baseball trivia for them.

Yeah, we're debating the slick finish on bats. Yes, they look better but Pro players have told us they are too slippery. So, we developed the Smith finish. It covers the bat from barrel to center brand and the rest of the bat is regular lacquer. You can't see the grain of the barrel on an ash bat. It looks really good. Manny, Ortiz, Arod, Jeter, Giambi, Giles (both), Posada, Pujols, Pudge, and a lot of others use this finish. We don't offer it on the storeline side because it's a four day process.

[hellborn]

I was wrong, Bellhorn has been using the O76 (David Ortiz).

The P72 was made for Leslie Pinkham.

Don't worry about the questions I enjoy answering them. That's one of the reasons I found this sight. I'm interviewing for the museum curator position here at work. One of the requirements is to teach/ have lessons for grade school children. I figured I'd look up some baseball trivia for them.

Yeah, we're debating the slick finish on bats. Yes, they look better but Pro players have told us they are too slippery. So, we developed the Smith finish. It covers the bat from barrel to center brand and the rest of the bat is regular lacquer. You can't see the grain of the barrel on an ash bat. It looks really good. Manny, Ortiz, Arod, Jeter, Giambi, Giles (both), Posada, Pujols, Pudge, and a lot of others use this finish. We don't offer it on the storeline side because it's a four day process.

It seems to me that you would be a natural for the curator position. I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't been to the HOF or the LS Museum, but, if the travel were the same for either one, I'd do LS first. I'm a lot closer to Cooperstown now, so I'll probably make it to that one first.
Has there ever been any discussion of publishing the LS bat models and which player or organization they were developed for? I guess that's pretty specialized info, but I'd think that a lot of bat collectors and other fanatics like me would be interested.
Do you guys have Pujols now? I thought that he used a SAM Bat for his HR off Lidge last fall. Or, was I just confused by the color scheme? You did mention that Sam is losing business due to delivery problems.
The Smith finish sounds like a great idea...I do love the look of the slick lacquer, but the grip really worries me. You have come out with a happy medium. You could just offer it in stores at a big premium, and bat nuts like me would be happy to pay for it!

[BMH]

No, Pujols still hasn't signed with us. I watched him on TV the other night and he was swinging a SAM bat. He's a streak player, much like Ortiz. He'll pick up a bat that feels good and uses it until the streak ends or it breaks. I've seen him use Rawlings, SAM, X-bat, and LS. We just shipped him some new I13L's Monday so hopefully he'll start using those.

I think the plan is to keep much of the information in house. Like I said the way it was done wasn't very good and lot of the information was lost. According to one list we have the R43 was made for Jose Rivero! A lot of the original models went "missing" over the years and in some cases they were sold for taking up space that was needed for current stock. So the lists we do have aren't complete and it's hard to determine how acurate they really are. That has been one of my pet projects here is filling in the blanks.

[batboy24]

I'm the production coordinator for LS's wood bat division. I take care of the storeline and Pro bat departments. I am also the Pro bat model designer and CNC programmer.

Personally I didn't know SAM was in trouble until our Pro reps came back with stories from equipment managers complaining about him not delivering bats on time. I then heard that he came to us wanting us to buy him. We told him no.

I would hate to see him close shop, competition leads to better products.

You mentioned the MLB players get the pick of the maple litters. After the MLB grade maple, is the 1XX MLB Timber the next grade down in the M9 series? You see the 1XX MLB Timber a lot of places advertised as major league wood, but is there a difference in grade between the 1XX MLB timber and the M9 you can get from Baseball Express?