View Poll Results: Which player is better? Who should go in the HOF first?

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  • Allen is clearly better

    28 84.85%
  • Tough call, but Allen should go in first

    1 3.03%
  • Tough call, but Garvey should go in first

    4 12.12%
  • Garvey is clearly better

    0 0%
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Thread: The Garvey Approximation - III: Dick Allen

  1. #1
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    The Garvey Approximation - III: Dick Allen

    Welcome to The Garvey Approximation.

    One of our favorite subjects for debate here at BBF is Steve Garvey. Some of us see him as one of the very best players the HOF could elect. Others don’t see him as being among the top 100 candidates for the Hall.

    If Garvey were elected to the HOF he would not be the worst player there. This puts him in the Gray Area along with hundreds of others. Of course, that’s a weak argument for advocating for a player’s election; the aim should always be towards electing the best candidates to the Hall. Is Garvey among the best candidates?

    Where does Garvey fall in the pecking order for the Hall? Is he one of the top ten candidates? Top twenty? Top hundred?

    An objective answer to this question is impossible. The best we can do is approximate an answer. That is what this project intends to do.

    In this poll we’ll consider Garvey vs. Dick Allen. In his day, Allen was demonized by the press as a disruptive presence. Today, many see this reputation as overblown, citing testimony of former teammates. From 1964-73 he had the game’s highest OPS+, 165. He was MVP in 1972, nearly winning the Triple Crown. He topped 30 HR in six seasons and batted over .300 seven times, despite the depressed offensive environment of his time.
    Code:
    top	Garvey 	Allen
    seven	WAA	WAA
    1	2.9	6.2
    2	2.6	6.2
    3	2.5	5.4
    4	2.3	3.8
    5	1.6	3.5
    6	0.6	3.2
    7	0.6	2.0
    career	6.6	32.9
    		
    WinSh	WS	WS
    1	27	41
    2	26	40
    3	25	35
    4	25	33
    5	22	32
    6	22	29
    7	21	29
    career	279	342
    Which one should the VC elect first, Garvey or Allen? Who was better? Is it a tough decision?
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  2. #2
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    This one isn't really close in my book. Probably the widest margin of the three we've compared to Garvey so far. In fact Allen would be at the top or near the top of any of Garvey's contemporaries or near contemporaries that have not been enshrined at Cooperstown. But let's look at the numbers shall we ...

    - Allen played in an offensively depressed era, often called the neo-deadball era. Despite that, he has a career SLG of .534, a mark Garvey never reached once. In fact the closest he ever came was 35 points short. Garvey also never reached Allen's career OBP mark of .378. Let me say that again, Garvey's peak SLG and OBP never even reached Allen's career averages.

    - Not surprisingly, Allen has a huge edge in career OPS+. 156 vs Garvey's 117.

    - Despite a shorter career and his era, Allen has a significant lead in career HR. 351 to 272.

    - Allen also managed to play over a third of his career games at 3B. And another 256 games in LF. He wasn't very good at either position, but that defensive flexibility is a plus, especially considering how hard it is to find a 3B who can hit like Allen. Garvey was the better defensive 1B by a comfortable margin and did play a bit at 3B at the start of his career. Garvey was hands down the better fielder, but Allen's defensive flexibility helps close some of the gap.

    - Garvey has a big edge in durability.
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  3. #3
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    Allen also managed to play over a third of his career games at 3B. And another 256 games in LF. He wasn't very good at either position, but that defensive flexibility is a plus,
    Garvey also sucked at 3rd and was moved to first. Doesn't he get "defensive flexibility " credit also.
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    I'm going to take Garvey in this one, although it's a very tough call.

    They both won MVPs in the early '70s. Allen's was more merited than Garvey's, who wasn't even the MVP of his team.

    But Garvey's durability, consistency, "clutchiness", awards, and accolades edge out Allen's higher peaks and lower valleys.

    Bill James (although he's since backed off this) explicitly cited the turmoil that Allen seemed to bring with him from team to team like a millstone as a reason to debit Allen's achievements. I don't buy that entirely, and since then there have been a number of testimonials praising Allen as a professional, a mentor to younger players, and a good teammate. And that may be so.

    But despite that, the contrast with Garvey's record of leading teams to five pennants, with NLCS MVP awards and several stellar postseason performances, is striking. Allen didn't make the playoffs until his penultimate season, as a (very good) part time player for the Phillies, who won the NL East. They were swept by the Big Red Machine in the NLCS; maybe the best team ever so not much shame there. Allen had two singles and three walks in the series, so, he was pretty good, but far from a major factor. Small sample size, but sometimes that's all you get.

    (The Phillies lost that series because Steve Carlton got smacked around in the opener, which can't happen if you're the Phillies playing the Big Red Machine, and then the Phillie bullpen was annihilated in the last two games. You look at the box scores and cringe for Tug McGraw, Ron Reed, and Gene Garber.)

    Garvey has the record for a consecutive game streak in the NL. Allen was accused of malingering more than once. Garvey won several Gold Gloves and rarely made an error; Allen was an indifferent fielder who led the league in errors twice at 1b and twice at 3b**.

    **Just looking at Allen's stats in left field -- it looks like he was pretty good out there. A lot of putouts, decent range, good fielding percentage. I wonder why he wasn't shifted out there for good after he moved off third base. Left field isn't really any harder to play than first base; if anything, it's where teams usually hide a guy, but it seems like Allen didn't need much hiding. On the other hand, defensive stats can be very deceiving, Allen had very few assists, and dWAR seems to hate him in LF (-2.9), for whatever reason dWAR decides to like or dislike players. (Please don't explain it...I know dWAR is based on solid theory and empirically validated, but I lack the energy for that much mental calisthenics at the moment.) Anyway, just an aside; if any old timers remember Allen in left field and want to comment, that would be fine.

    Garvey made 10 All-Star teams, Allen only 7.

    Garvey had 750 more career hits than Allen. That's a lot. Allen, on the other hand, hit about 80 more HR than Garvey. But despite driving himself in that many more times, Garvey had more runs scored and RBI than Allen. (Yeah, better teammates, but still.)

    I mentioned in the Munson v. Garvey thread that Munson was a good matchup against Garvey, because Munson can pretty much trump every positive Garvey has, except longevity, and even that more martyrs Munson than it undercuts him.

    Well, Allen is a pretty bad matchup against Garvey. One for Mr. Clean.

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    Allen by a long shot.

    6x top ten in WAR position players (1X #1)
    6x Top ten in BA
    7X top ten in OBP (2X #1)
    8X Top ten in Slugging (3x #1)
    10x Top Ten in OPS (4x #1)
    8X Top Ten in Homeruns (2X #1)
    10X Top Ten leader in OPS+ (3x #1)

    RoY (1964)
    MVP (1972)
    Last edited by 1905 Giants; 08-25-2014 at 10:07 PM.
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    We are comparing 2 players with comparable careers. One (Garvey) was a team leader, and an iron man, the other (Allen) is one of the biggest horse's rear ends in baseball history, Garvey for me.
    If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    Garvey also sucked at 3rd and was moved to first. Doesn't he get "defensive flexibility " credit also.
    Garvey played third primarily for 3 part time seasons. He had a tot of 155 starts at third, a season's worth of playing time. Allen started at third 646 times. Garvey did what a lot of players do, played on position briefly before being moved to a less demanding position and remaining there. Allen, who was no gold glover at the hot corner, managed to stick around and play over four times as many games at third as Garvey. Heck he had more starts at his third position (249 at LF) than Garvey has at third. As I said above, overall I give Garvey the edge with the glove, because he managed to find a position he could excel at, where as Allen was below average all over the diamond, but there is value in a guy who can play multiple positions, even if he's not playing them well.
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  8. #8
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    For the pro-Garvey crowd, how many of Garvey's seasons would you take over the average full time ('64-'75) Dick Allen season: .295/.381/.542 133 games, 28 HR, 85 runs, 86 RBI, 160 OPS+. Keep in the mind the park adjusted league average for Allen during that time was .259/.324/.382.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windy City Fan View Post
    For the pro-Garvey crowd, how many of Garvey's seasons would you take over the average full time ('64-'75) Dick Allen season: .295/.381/.542 133 games, 28 HR, 85 runs, 86 RBI, 160 OPS+. Keep in the mind the park adjusted league average for Allen during that time was .259/.324/.382.
    Allen played very few full-time season and QUIT on his team in 1974 Garvey was NL MVP that year. I'd take Garvey over 2 Allens
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  10. #10
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    He averaged 133 games over a 12 year stretch, I'd call that a full time starter. It bumps up to 142 game average, if you go from just '64 to '72. So yeah, he was a full time starter for plenty of seasons. And you didn't answer the question, how many of Garvey's seasons would you take over Allen's average season as a full time player?

    You mentioned Garvey's 74 season, so let's compare. Garvey had a slash line of .312/.342/.469, giving up almost 40 points in OBP and 73 points in slugging. Despite playing more games (156) he was still out homered by Allen's average season (28 vs 21). Just to put the slash lines in perspective, if Allen added a 0 for 56 stretch to his average season, he'd average a .342 OBP and a .486 SLG. So basically if Allen played the 20 or so games he's short of Garvey in this comparison and did absolutely nothing, he'd end up with rate stats roughly equal to Garvey.
    "I will calmly wait for my induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame."
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    "Get a comfy chair, Sammy, cause its gonna be a long wait."
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windy City Fan View Post
    You mentioned Garvey's 74 season, so let's compare. Garvey had a slash line of .312/.342/.469, giving up almost 40 points in OBP and 73 points in slugging. Despite playing more games (156) he was still out homered by Allen's average season (28 vs 21). Just to put the slash lines in perspective, if Allen added a 0 for 56 stretch to his average season, he'd average a .342 OBP and a .486 SLG. So basically if Allen played the 20 or so games he's short of Garvey in this comparison and did absolutely nothing, he'd end up with rate stats roughly equal to Garvey.
    good lord!

    If he had played? ALLEN QUIT THE TEAM. He gave no reason. He just quit. He remains one of the biggest jerks ever in baseball history.

    Baseball is played by humans, not sets of numbers. In no way would the Dodgers have wanted Allen over Garvey in 1974. Why would they want that headache?
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    I posted this a while back. It sums up my feelings about Allen:

    Do you what I like about coming to BBF? I can have my long-time perceptions of things turned around and pointed in the right direction.

    I have now learned that Dick Allen was a good guy. He was constantly surrounded by bad people. He had the worst of luck. He was victim.

    In Philadelphia, none of Allen's bad behavior was his fault. Allen's antics like dressing separately, being late, missing batting practice, antagonizing fans, half hearted efforts on the field, and quarreling with teammates were not Allen's fault. Those behaviors were the fault of fans, Bob Skinner, Frank Thomas, the Philadelphia media, and baseball fans everywhere for not seeing Allen as the victim.

    When his half hearted efforts caused him to last just one year on the Cardinals and he was traded for a scrub like Ted Sizemore, the Cardinals are to blame for not sticking with Allen. Oh yeah, they did win 16 more games the next year without Allen.

    The Dodgers got disenchanted after just one year of Allen's non hustle and attitude and traded him to his 4th team in 4 years. The Dodgers are certainly to blame for not seeing the good in Allen.

    Joining the White Sox in 1972, manager Chuck Tanner tried not be the latest bad guy to persecute Allen. So Tanner allowed Allen to show up late and skip batting practice, and had separate rules just for Allen. But Allen blew all that up by quitting the team with 2 weeks to go in the 1974 season. He gave no explanation. But, never fear, we found out many years later that it was Ron Santo's fault. It could never be Allen's. After that 1974 incident Royal's GM Joe Burke said that he wouldn't take Allen on his team , even if it cost him nothing. That is Burke's fault for being sucked in by the rumors

    On to the Phillies again. All of the bad people from Allen's previous tenure must be gone, otherwise why would he willingly go back to that hellhole? The Phillies won their division in 1976 and were headed to their first post season in 26 years. Allen caused a big controversy right before the playoffs by ripping his team for not putting seldom-used Tony Taylor on the playoff roster. It turned into a distraction and the Phillies were promptly swept by the Reds. That was the Phillies fault for not having Taylor on the postseason roster.

    On now to the A's in 1977 and more half hearted efforts by Allen. Upon releasing Allen, owner Charles O Finley blasted Allen. But as we know now, Allen is always the victim and this is Finley's fault for expecting a player to try and hustle.

    new note: The only people that Allen should be on comparative threads with are Milton Bradley and Chris Brown.
    Last edited by JR Hart; 08-27-2014 at 10:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    I posted this a while back. It sums up my feelings about Allen:

    Do you what I like about coming to BBF? I can have my long-time perceptions of things turned around and pointed in the right direction.

    I have now learned that Dick Allen was a good guy. He was constantly surrounded by bad people. He had the worst of luck. He was victim.

    In Philadelphia, none of Allen's bad behavior was his fault. Allen's antics like dressing separately, being late, missing batting practice, antagonizing fans, half hearted efforts on the field, and quarreling with teammates were not Allen's fault. Those behaviors were the fault of fans, Bob Skinner, Frank Thomas, the Philadelphia media, and baseball fans everywhere for not seeing Allen as the victim.

    When his half hearted efforts caused him to last just one year on the Cardinals and he was traded for a scrub like Ted Sizemore, the Cardinals are to blame for not sticking with Allen. Oh yeah, they did win 16 more games the next year without Allen.

    The Dodgers got disenchanted after just one year of Allen's non hustle and attitude and traded him to his 4th team in 4 years. The Dodgers are certainly to blame for not seeing the good in Allen.

    Joining the White Sox in 1972, manager Chuck Tanner tried not be the latest bad guy to persecute Allen. So Tanner allowed Allen to show up late and skip batting practice, and had separate rules just for Allen. But Allen blew all that up by quitting the team with 2 weeks to go in the 1974 season. He gave no explanation. But, never fear, we found out many years later that it was Ron Santo's fault. It could never be Allen's. After that 1974 incident Royal's GM Joe Burke said that he wouldn't take Allen on his team , even if it cost him nothing. That is Burke's fault for being sucked in by the rumors

    On to the Phillies again. All of the bad people from Allen's previous tenure must be gone, otherwise why would he willingly go back to that hellhole? The Phillies won their division in 1976 and were headed to their first post season in 26 years. Allen caused a big controversy right before the playoffs by ripping his team for not putting seldom-used Tony Taylor on the playoff roster. It turned into a distraction and the Phillies were promptly swept by the Reds. That was the Phillies fault for not having Taylor on the postseason roster.

    On now to the A's in 1977 and more half hearted efforts by Allen. Upon releasing Allen, owner Charles O Finley blasted Allen. But as we know now, Allen is always the victim and this is Finley's fault for expecting a player to try and hustle.

    new note: The only people that Allen should be on comparative threads with are Milton Bradley and Chris Brown.
    I remember this post! I liked it so much that I posted it in the BBF Post of the Day thread.

  14. #14
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    The results of the poll will confirm what many of us believe to be true. Allen was a better hitter in his time than Garvey was in his time.

    Great, terrific. But this is the HOF thread. And the line is not drawn at Dick Allen's hitting ability. Meaning there is no rule that says you have to be a better hitter than Dick Allen to be a HOF level player.

    He lost so much time to immaturity and emotional instability (thank you Bill James for the language) that Dick Allen really ceases to become a good benchmark for what a HOF player looks like. Hall of Famers don't get traded five times in less than six years.

    Five times.

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    I have no doubt in my mind that Dick Allen was by far the superior hitter. That is not even debatable IMO. Allen had one of the greatest rookie seasons ever. Allen could hit the ball 500 feet. Allen was one of the most dominant and scary hitters of his generation. Given all that, due to circumstances within and outside of Allen's control his career was not what it could have been. He was accused of being a bad team player, etc. This is controversial because after Bill James wrote a highly negative essay about Allen, Craig Wright took James to task with his own research that showed that Allen's troubles were exaggerated. Also, Allen had trouble staying healthy. Steve Garvey played every day and Garvey was never a negative distraction in a Dick Allen sort of way. I'd rather take the guy that will play every day and isn't a negative distraction for the team. And Garvey could hit a little, too. So I choose Steve Garvey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    I posted this a while back. It sums up my feelings about Allen:


    Joining the White Sox in 1972, manager Chuck Tanner tried not be the latest bad guy to persecute Allen. So Tanner allowed Allen to show up late and skip batting practice, and had separate rules just for Allen. But Allen blew all that up by quitting the team with 2 weeks to go in the 1974 season. He gave no explanation. But, never fear, we found out many years later that it was Ron Santo's fault. It could never be Allen's. After that 1974 incident Royal's GM Joe Burke said that he wouldn't take Allen on his team , even if it cost him nothing. That is Burke's fault for being sucked in by the rumors
    JR, I can confirm that the White Sox fandom community had enough of Mr. Allen. I wasn't even in preschool yet, but my parents have nothing good to say about Allen - he was a bad guy, and with quitting, it was a last straw. My parents and many in White Sox land wanted him gone, no matter how much skill he might possess. Addition by subtraction.

    I don't know how many of you have had a terrible coworker, but when gone (even if they were skilled), it feels like a weight is lifted off your chest. No more walking around on eggshells.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    He was accused of being a bad team player, etc.
    By writers. Writers.

    Not his managers, not his team mates which not only refute that but say just the opposite. But of course, when asked about whether a person is a bad team player, how would the people on the team have a clue compared to people who sit in a luxury box plowing down beers and hot dogs.


    Let's keep repeating it though......Who knows about the team? Let's ask.....the writers.
    Last edited by drstrangelove; 08-27-2014 at 02:57 PM.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by jr hart View Post
    if he had played? Allen quit the team.

    Arky vaughn quit his team. Multiple members of the 1947 dodgers threatened to quit their team. Members of the 1935 braves threatened to quit their team. Robin Yount quit his team. Babe Ruth quit his team twice. Twice. Good lord indeed!

    Arky Vaughn
    Babe Ruth
    members of the 1947 dodgers
    members of the 1935 braves
    Robin Yount
    Dick Allen


    hmmmmmmmm........good lord! Dick allen!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jr hart View Post
    He gave no reason. He just quit.
    He gave a reason. Just because you don't know it, doesn't change the facts. He told his team mates why he was leaving the day he left.
    Last edited by drstrangelove; 08-27-2014 at 02:56 PM.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
    JR, I can confirm that the White Sox fandom community had enough of Mr. Allen. I wasn't even in preschool yet, but my parents have nothing good to say about Allen - he was a bad guy, and with quitting, it was a last straw. My parents and many in White Sox land wanted him gone, no matter how much skill he might possess. Addition by subtraction.

    I don't know how many of you have had a terrible coworker, but when gone (even if they were skilled), it feels like a weight is lifted off your chest. No more walking around on eggshells.
    The irony of course is that Tanner, Kaat and Gossage said that he helped their team and was a good team mate. Of course that can hardly stand up against the recollections of a 4 year old about comments made by his parents.



    4 year old ------versus----- actual manager and team mates hmmmm.


    http://blog.petflow.com/4-year-old-called-911/

    Here's a typical 4 year old calling 911 to get help with his math homework.




    Yea, I go with the 4 year old over the manager and the players.
    Last edited by drstrangelove; 08-27-2014 at 02:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drstrangelove View Post
    By writers. Writers.

    Not his managers, not his team mates which not only refute that but say just the opposite. But of course, when asked about whether a person is a bad team player, how would the people on the team have a clue compared to people who sit in a luxury box plowing down beers and hot dogs.

    Let's keep repeating it because it just sounds so really pointless. Who knows about the team? Let's ask.....the writers.
    I will have to look again, but I don't remember ever seeing anything negative on Dick Allen in his one year in St. Louis -- other than he got hurt and we lost him. The team shuffled players from the year Allen was there in 1970 (76-86 record that year) and 1971 (90-72). Trading Allen was a huge help, by getting the younger Ted Sizemore to replace the aging favorite at second base Julian Javier. Sizemore did a fine job at second for the next few years. Allen, and his injuries - not his attitude, was expendable because the young kid Ted Simmons (20 years old I think) was ready to take over the catching job so Joe Torre could move to the corner infield spots. Torre responded by having one of the single greatest seasons in the 1970s in 1971, primarily at 3B (where he replaced Mike Shannon who had to retire early).

    Allen's bat was replaced by Simmons at C, Torre even better than he had been over at 3B, and Sizemore was also an upgrade over Javier, who was still around as a replacement. Joe Hague took over at 1B, a man that was already on the roster and played when Allen was hurt. The team wasn't improved because a bad attitude left town, it was improved because a lot of replacement parts came up and in to improve the team. I do remember reading that the black leaders of the club, guys like Bob Gibson and Lou Brock, got along with Allen, and he got along with his other teammates too.

    I will have to look again, but I thought it was injury issues that sent Allen from St. Louis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drstrangelove View Post
    Arky vaughn quit his team. Multiple members of the 1947 dodgers threatened to quit their team. Members of the 1935 braves threatened to quite their team. Robin Yount quit his team. Babe Ruth quit his team twice. Twice. Good lord indeed!

    Arky vaughn
    Babe Ruth
    members of the 1947 dodgers
    members of the 1935 braves
    robin yount
    Dick Allen
    hmmmmmmmm........good lord! Dick allen!!
    Always forgotten is my man Dizzy Dean. He quit the Cardinals in 1934, at least once. It is hard to keep all the walk-offs and/or outright quittings that he and Paul did in '34 from the suspensions (both team and league) that same year. It is amazing the guy was in enough league games to win 30! Seriously. Not only did Dizzy Dean quit the Cardinals in 1934, but he even tore to shreds all his uniforms in his locker when arguing with Frankie Frisch. When the press came in to see what was going on, they asked him to do it again and Dizzy obliged by shredding up more uniforms for the cameras.

    My favorite all time player, Dizzy Dean, quit my all time favorite team, the 1934 Cardinals, and I would still take him as my starting pitcher every time.
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    I think that the Allen apologists are my favorites on BBF. Probably because they trying the impossible, to paint Dick Allen in a good light.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drstrangelove View Post
    The irony of course is that Tanner, Kaat and Gossage said that he helped their team and was a good team mate. Of course that can hardly stand up against the recollections of a 4 year old about comments made by his parents.



    4 year old ------versus----- actual manager and team mates hmmmm.


    http://blog.petflow.com/4-year-old-called-911/

    Here's a typical 4 year old calling 911 to get help with his math homework.




    Yea, I go with the 4 year old over the manager and the players.
    I don't know about the team - I was talking about the fans. When Sammy Sosa left the Cubs on the last day of the season about a decade ago, Cubs fandom turned on him too, if you remember that. I'm sure some of the Dick Allen vitriol was caused by the media, but White Sox fans had turned on him. Justifiable or not, they had. Incidentally, the parents discussion was held as an adult about their previous perceptions back in the day. I don't remember any baseball at all before 1980, so it definitely wasn't the memory of 4 year old.

    Whether the team did or not, I don't know. I was offering the eggshells comparison as a possibility. Two possibilities - not everyone was heard from and also people do cover up to "outsiders."
    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...f-Fame-Project

    Please take a moment to consider voting in my "No Doubt" Hall of Fame Project.

    Players I think are most often underrated: Jim Thome, Luke Appling, Harry Heilmann, Goose Goslin, Vlad Guerrero, Fred Clarke, Zack Wheat, Carlos Delgado, Ken Boyer, Jim Palmer, Jack Morris.

    Players I think are most often overrated: Joe Morgan, Roberto Clemente, Paul Molitor, Bobby Grich, Graig Nettles.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    I think that the Allen apologists are my favorites on BBF. Probably because they trying the impossible, to paint Dick Allen in a good light.
    I'm not trying to apologize for anyone, I am just saying that Dick Allen didn't get shuffled out of St. Louis because of any issues beyond his season-ending injury and his wanting to rehab in Philly rather than St. Louis. He had a great season in St. Louis in 1970, in only 122 games, he hit 34 HR and drove in 101 RBI. That 34 may have been the Busch Memorial Stadium single-season high in home runs until Jack Clark hit 35 in 1987 -- another injury-shortened season. Maybe Cha-Cha hit more in 1967, I will have to look. Either way, that wasn't a park to pile up huge home run totals in.
    "It ain't braggin' if you can do it!" Dizzy Dean

    "There is a growing faction of players that are tired of protecting drug users." Tom Herr, 1985, Cardinals second baseman and player representative.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by drstrangelove View Post
    By writers. Writers.

    Not his managers, not his team mates which not only refute that but say just the opposite.
    You mean like Frank Thomas? Certainly today Allen's former teammates paint a different picture today. Craig Wright did extensive research and interviews with Allen's former managers and teammates to get the real story. For the most part they said Allen was helpful and a good teammate.

    But of course, when asked about whether a person is a bad team player, how would the people on the team have a clue compared to people who sit in a luxury box plowing down beers and hot dogs.


    Let's keep repeating it though......Who knows about the team? Let's ask.....the writers.
    Well, Allen kept getting traded and it's not because Allen's teams had better options than Allen. The Dodgers never traded Steve Garvey.

    I realize that Allen being black was heavy weight he had to carry in his career especially in the first part of his career. But he handled it poorly. Maybe he didn't know any other way to handle it? Who knows. But taking everything into account, I'd rather have Steve Garvey even though Allen IMO was a better hitter.
    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 08-27-2014 at 03:24 PM.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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