View Poll Results: Does Thurman Munson belong in the HOF?

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Thread: Thurman Munson

  1. #1

    Thurman Munson

    Derek Jeter says Thurman Munson should be in the Hall of Fame, no question about it.

  2. #2
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    Every poll ever taken at BBF has shown Munson to be undeserving. Simply too short a career without a monster peak to propel him into the HoF. He only played in 11 seasons and the first was a cup of coffee. The last two he was an offensive liability and heading toward the sunset. Fine player, though.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by KCGHOST
    Every poll ever taken at BBF has shown Munson to be undeserving. Simply too short a career without a monster peak to propel him into the HoF. He only played in 11 seasons and the first was a cup of coffee. The last two he was an offensive liability and heading toward the sunset. Fine player, though.
    Maybe Jeter is biased from being in the Yankee organization his whole career.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KCGHOST
    Every poll ever taken at BBF has shown Munson to be undeserving. Simply too short a career without a monster peak to propel him into the HoF. Fine player, though.
    I understand that but I would say that he's certianally a top 20 catcher of all time...I am biased here I am senitmental to the old guy. I mean his shortened career wasn't exactly his fault either...but would you say that he was better than Posada though?
    "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisLDuncan
    I mean his shortened career wasn't exactly his fault either...but would you say that he was better than Posada though?
    Well, he was the pilot of the plane, but be that as it may you could see age drastic decline in his last two years of play. This is not like Koufax or Joss being stopped at the peak of their gifts.

    Better than Posada??? Hmmmm. Well it's pretty close and they are both "gamers". Personally I like Posada better, but I don't know that I could prove that.
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by KCGHOST
    Every poll ever taken at BBF has shown Munson to be undeserving. Simply too short a career without a monster peak to propel him into the HoF. He only played in 11 seasons and the first was a cup of coffee. The last two he was an offensive liability and heading toward the sunset. Fine player, though.
    Didn't have great seasons in 1978 and '79 due to multiple ailments that he tried to play through. But even in those years, he was still a dangerous clutch hitter that AL pitchers respected.

    I wouldn't call Munson "undeserving," as his career was cut short by tragedy. What he was able to accomplish while he was alive was not enough to get him enshrined into Cooperstown. But it was enough to get his number 15 with the Yankees retired and his locker cubicle turned into a shrine. Those honors are nothing to be sneezed at.
    Last edited by Redondos; 12-04-2006 at 12:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KCGHOST
    Well, he was the pilot of the plane, but be that as it may you could see age drastic decline in his last two years of play. This is not like Koufax or Joss being stopped at the peak of their gifts.

    Better than Posada??? Hmmmm. Well it's pretty close and they are both "gamers". Personally I like Posada better, but I don't know that I could prove that.
    Well I think your first comment is a bit snide and cynical, but who am I to judge, on to him or Posada both were two players that epitiomized hard play. I would say that there are Hall of Famers that he was better than. He also came up huge in the post season, he was a gamer for sure...if he makes the hall this Yankee fan won't complain.
    "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

    "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

  8. #8
    If Munson get's in, what do you say to Jason Kendall? As of the end of last season, Kendall has played 11 major league seasons, the same as Munson. Munson's most similiar batter is Jason Kendall, and Kendal scores 10 points higher than Munson on the Hall of Fame Standards Test.

    Munson has more all-star appearances and awards, but that's not to say Kendall didn't deserve more awards. Kendall played the majority of his career in almost complete obscurity in Pittsburgh. Munson was the Captain of the Yankees and because of that was given more media attention.
    "Any ballplayer that don't sign autographs for little kids ain't an American. He's a communist." -Rogers Hornsby

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by candy curveball cummings
    If Munson get's in, what do you say to Jason Kendall? As of the end of last season, Kendall has played 11 major league seasons, the same as Munson. Munson's most similiar batter is Jason Kendall, and Kendal scores 10 points higher than Munson on the Hall of Fame Standards Test.

    Munson has more all-star appearances and awards, but that's not to say Kendall didn't deserve more awards. Kendall played the majority of his career in almost complete obscurity in Pittsburgh. Munson was the Captain of the Yankees and because of that was given more media attention.
    Kendall didn't die, nor did he win 2 WS and he wasn't lights out in the post season either. Also he never won an MVP, nor was he ever in the conversation for best catcher in baseball...so I'd say no to Kendall for now, however I do like Kendall.
    "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

    "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisLDuncan
    Kendall didn't die, nor did he win 2 WS and he wasn't lights out in the post season either. Also he never won an MVP, nor was he ever in the conversation for best catcher in baseball...so I'd say no to Kendall for now, however I do like Kendall.
    Oh, so BECAUSE Thurman Munson died he should be in the Hall of Fame? Why does Munson get credit for 2 WS? Munson played on better teams. Kendall played in Pittsburgh for most of his career. He didn't even made the post season until 2006. If he had made the post-season in 1998, I bet he'd have done quite a bit better.

    Kendall didn't win an MVP. I submit to you that the only reason Munson won his was because he played for the Yankees. If you put him on another team, he doesn't win the award.

    Kendall should have been in the discussion of best catcher in baseball. Again, he played in Pittsburgh.

    .327 BA | .411 OBP | .473 SLG | 131 OPS+
    .321 BA | .358 OBP | .513 SLG | 120 OPS+

    Which of these two players would you rather have? The first is Kendall in 1998 and the other is Ivan Rodriguez in 1998. Ivan won the AL MVP that year. Before you talk about defense, check Kendall's defensive statistics for 1998. Then check Ivan Rodriguez's. They're closer than you might think.
    "Any ballplayer that don't sign autographs for little kids ain't an American. He's a communist." -Rogers Hornsby

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    Quote Originally Posted by KCGHOST
    Simply too short a career
    To short a career!? This guy didn't retire, he was killed in a horrible accident! He would have had at least five more good years if not that plane crash. I may be a Sox fan, and I hate Munson, but he definitely deserves to be in the hall.
    "He studied hitting like a broker studies the stock market, how a scribe studies the scriptures" - Carl Yastrzemski on Ted Williams

    "The greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox history has done it again! Big Papi!" - Don Orsillo's call of Ortiz's walk-off single

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by keepthefaith3
    To short a career!? This guy didn't retire, he was killed in a horrible accident! He would have had at least five more good years if not that plane crash. I may be a Sox fan, and I hate Munson, but he definitely deserves to be in the hall.
    I guess using that logic, Darryl Kile should be in the HOF too. He didn't retire, he died. His last full season as a pitcher for the cards in 2001 he had a very good season. He looked as if he would be productive for a couple more years. I guess in your book he's a hall of famer too ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skin & Bones
    I guess using that logic, Darryl Kile should be in the HOF too. He didn't retire, he died. His last full season as a pitcher for the cards in 2001 he had a very good season. He looked as if he would be productive for a couple more years. I guess in your book he's a hall of famer too ?
    The reason Kile isn't a hall of famer in my view is because he never won a cy young, while Munson won an MVP.
    "He studied hitting like a broker studies the stock market, how a scribe studies the scriptures" - Carl Yastrzemski on Ted Williams

    "The greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox history has done it again! Big Papi!" - Don Orsillo's call of Ortiz's walk-off single

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by keepthefaith3
    To short a career!? This guy didn't retire, he was killed in a horrible accident! He would have had at least five more good years if not that plane crash. I may be a Sox fan, and I hate Munson, but he definitely deserves to be in the hall.
    As KCGhost pointed out in previous posts, he was already well in decline by the time of his death. Its doubtful if he would have really added much to legacy if he lived.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by KCGHOST
    Better than Posada??? Hmmmm. Well it's pretty close and they are both "gamers". Personally I like Posada better, but I don't know that I could prove that.
    I've been thinking a lot lately about Posada's place among the all time catchers and I think he's really snuck up there. If you asked me a few months ago, I'd be hesistant to put Posada in the top 40 all time, but he's become a gamer and doesn't hurt his team with his defense, and his offense really stands out at catcher. So I'm still not sure what to do with Posada, but lately I've been thinking that he might be in my top 25 at catcher, and perhaps higher. I have Munson in the top 20, but I'll really have to think about this some more.

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    IMO, since Koufax and Joss were admitted to the HOF in spite of shortened careers, one can make a valid argument for Munson's inclusion.

    That said, IMO his qualifications are significantly lower than those of Koufax and Joss, and would make him very borderline at best.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by keepthefaith3
    The reason Kile isn't a hall of famer in my view is because he never won a cy young, while Munson won an MVP.
    So we are basing this on a subjective award ?

    Pat Hentgen must be a deserving Hall Of Famer then.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naliamegod
    As KCGhost pointed out in previous posts, he was already well in decline by the time of his death. Its doubtful if he would have really added much to legacy if he lived.
    That's a Bill James assertion that I did not believe at the time of Munson's death, and which cannot be proven.

    Definitions of a HOFer

    Definition A: A Hall of Famer is any player who could reasonably be argued to be the greatest ever at the position he played. Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, and Walter Johnson would be typical Hall of Famers at that level.

    Definition B: A Hall of Famer is a player who is one of the greatest ever at the position he played. Such a player should be the dominant player at his position at the time that he is active, with the exception of the relatively rare occurrence of talent doubling up at a position, such as Mantle and Mays. A Hall of Famer should be the biggest star on the field at almost any time. This definition would let into the Hall of Fame such players as Joe Morgan, George Sisler, Al Kaline and Joe Cronin.

    Definition C: A Hall of Famer is a player who is consistently among the best in the league at his position. Such a player would ordinarily be the biggest star on his team unless it was a pennant-winning team, in which case he would be regarded as one of the most valuable members of the team. This definition would make room in the Hall of Fame for such players as Billy Williams, Willie Stargell, Billy Herman, Fred Clarke, Johnny Evers, and Harry Heilmann.

    Definition D: A Hall of Famer is a player who rises well above the level of the average player, a player who would be capable of contributing to a pennant-winning team, and would be one of the outstanding players on an average team. This definition would include such players as Joe Rudi, Wally Schang, Lloyd Waner, Eppa Rixey, and Tommy McCarthy.
    I have highlighed Definition C because I think that it is the REAL standard of the HOF; if you meet that standard, you usually go into the HOF. I can think of few players who meet that standard that are NOT in the HOF.

    Munson arguably qualifies under Definition C. He was the best catcher in the AL in the 1970s; the reason Fisk ranks ahead of him is because of what Fisk did in the 1980s; at the beginning of 1979, there was FAR more apprehension that FISK, not Munson, was washed up, due to lingering injuries.

    Munson was the BEST player on a team that won the pennant, and, yes, he deserves MUCH credit for that. He wasn't just there; he was the best player and the league MVP that year. He was ROY in the AL in 1970. He was a perennial All Star and a Gold Glove winner. He was not the best catcher in baseball; Johnny Bench was. But he was the best catcher in his league, and he had quality competition.

    Munson is a borderline HOFer at worst.
    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle1
    Derek Jeter says Thurman Munson should be in the Hall of Fame, no question about it.
    Well, I guess it's settled. . .

    I say no. Not because he's a Yankee, but because he doesn't have the numbers. He's in the boneyard at Yankee Stadium and I think that's good enough.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear
    That's a Bill James assertion that I did not believe at the time of Munson's death, and which cannot be proven.



    I have highlighed Definition C because I think that it is the REAL standard of the HOF; if you meet that standard, you usually go into the HOF. I can think of few players who meet that standard that are NOT in the HOF.

    Munson arguably qualifies under Definition C. He was the best catcher in the AL in the 1970s; the reason Fisk ranks ahead of him is because of what Fisk did in the 1980s; at the beginning of 1979, there was FAR more apprehension that FISK, not Munson, was washed up, due to lingering injuries.

    Munson was the BEST player on a team that won the pennant, and, yes, he deserves MUCH credit for that. He wasn't just there; he was the best player and the league MVP that year. He was ROY in the AL in 1970. He was a perennial All Star and a Gold Glove winner. He was not the best catcher in baseball; Johnny Bench was. But he was the best catcher in his league, and he had quality competition.

    Munson is a borderline HOFer at worst.
    The problem I have with those definitions is that it's like a pyramid or a large umbrella. Under definitions C and D, the canopy broadens and more players start to fit in, but that doesn't mean that they should be in the HOF. If you stick with A and B, you can't go wrong.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear
    Munson arguably qualifies under Definition C. He was the best catcher in the AL in the 1970s; the reason Fisk ranks ahead of him is because of what Fisk did in the 1980s; at the beginning of 1979, there was FAR more apprehension that FISK, not Munson, was washed up, due to lingering injuries.
    That's a stone fact. I remember the time and Fisk was considered likely washed up by most of the "experts."
    Munson was the BEST player on a team that won the pennant, and, yes, he deserves MUCH credit for that. He wasn't just there; he was the best player and the league MVP that year. He was ROY in the AL in 1970. He was a perennial All Star and a Gold Glove winner. He was not the best catcher in baseball; Johnny Bench was. But he was the best catcher in his league, and he had quality competition.

    Munson is a borderline HOFer at worst.
    Agreed. I would quibble only in that I personally thought Fisk was the best Catcher in the AL, just a touch better than Thurman, but it was so, so close between them.

    And in case it matters, I didn't care for the man. To put it mildly. Having said that, it's always bothered me that his case is often dismissed in such an offhand fashion.
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Los Bravos
    That's a stone fact. I remember the time and Fisk was considered likely washed up by most of the "experts."Agreed. I would quibble only in that I personally thought Fisk was the best Catcher in the AL, just a touch better than Thurman, but it was so, so close between them.

    And in case it matters, I didn't care for the man. To put it mildly. Having said that, it's always bothered me that his case is often dismissed in such an offhand fashion.
    You rarely see his case pushed forward by people other than Yankee fans who like pointing out his Yankee accomplishments. The lack of objectivity behind his push does cloud the argument.

    Munson was highly regarded while he played, there is no doubt about it. And his death resonates. But his numbers for so short a career aren't eye-popping. That was the era, that was the position he played. It's unfortunate, but Musnon's short career case isn't as strong as Koufax, Joss or Puckett. The numbers aren't there.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pesky6
    The problem I have with those definitions is that it's like a pyramid or a large umbrella. Under definitions C and D, the canopy broadens and more players start to fit in, but that doesn't mean that they should be in the HOF. If you stick with A and B, you can't go wrong.
    I believe (and this is MY opinion) that Definition C is the real, operating definiton of the HOF.

    Very few Definition D players make the HOF; the ones that do are usually pointed out as mistakes.

    MOST players who reach the standard of Definition C are, ultimately, elected to the HOF. Far, far more are in than out. Munson, IMO, is one of the guys who are out.
    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

    NL President Ford Frick, 1947

  24. #24
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    He was certainly on his way for success. Shouldn't be kept out of the hall just because he died in a plane crash. I mean, if we can have Koufax...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    He was certainly on his way for success. Shouldn't be kept out of the hall just because he died in a plane crash. I mean, if we can have Koufax...
    Koufax, whom I believe to be overrated career-wise, was the best pitcher or one of the best in the NL from about 1961 - 1966. He had an unbelievable peak, one of the best of all-time.

    Thurmon Munson was one of my favorite players on those Yankee teams. He was a gamer, hard-working, critical to the Yankee success. he never came close to achieving a peak like Koufax did.
    As for MVP, Hank Sauer won one too. Should we put him in the HOF as well?
    But he was going downhill, quickly, his last two years. He would not have added to his rate stats and was in serious decline at the time.
    I remember the day he died in the plane crash. I was 27 at the time and damn near cried.
    But being objective, Thurmon Munson will have to be content with being in the Yankee HOF and not in Cooperstown.

    Yankees Fan Since 1957

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