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Thread: What HOFers is Garvey better than?

  1. #1
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    What HOFers is Garvey better than?

    There's a complaint that the project comparing other HOF candidates to Garvey is just a way to beat up on him. I think the consensus is that Garvey is better than the worst actual inductions in the Hall, but not those who are generally not controversial picks. What I propose is everyone list the HOFers they believe Garvey is superior to, and I'll tally the responses.

    Please, to make tabulating the results easier, please list the HOFers alphabetically. Also, please limit the names to guys inducted for their career as players
    Last edited by jalbright; 08-23-2014 at 08:05 AM.
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    My list:
    Jim Bottomley
    Candy Cummings
    Rick Ferrell
    Chick Hafey
    Jesse Haines
    Judy Johnson
    George Kell
    George Kelly
    Fred Lindstrom
    Rube Marquard
    Bill Mazeroski
    Tommy McCarthy
    Ray Schalk
    Lloyd Waner
    Last edited by jalbright; 08-23-2014 at 09:10 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #3
    May edit to add:

    Schalk
    Ferrell
    Kell
    Lindstrom
    Youngs
    Hafey
    HP Kelly
    Haines
    Marquard
    McCarthy
    Lloyd Waner

    Maybe Catfish, Rollie and Sutter. Prob Maz.

    I'll be examining and be back. In progress.
    Last edited by baltimorechop; 08-23-2014 at 08:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baltimorechop View Post
    May edit to add:

    .....
    I'll be examining and be back. In progress.
    I expect edits, and I don't anticipate compiling the results at least until the end of August. After the 30th, it would be good to either post your changes in a separate post, make a post indicating you've made changes, or PM me to let me know you've made changes. Until that time, it won't be necessary.

    I also think Candy Cummings should be included in this project, because his claim to the Hall is solely based on what he did as a player, being credited with the curve ball.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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    Rick Ferrell
    High Pockets Kelly
    Rube Marquard
    Bill Mazeroski
    Tommy McCarthy
    Ray Schalk
    Lloyd Waner

    That's about it.
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    My list:
    Jim Bottomley
    Candy Cummings
    Rick Ferrell
    Chick Hafey
    Jesse Haines
    Judy Johnson
    George Kell
    George Kelly
    Fred Lindstrom
    Rube Marquard
    Bill Mazeroski
    Tommy McCarthy
    Ray Schalk
    Lloyd Waner
    This would also be my list, so count it as my vote.

  7. #7
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    I'll take a stab. I will say this,along with Garvey, there are many other non-HOFers that I rate better than many of these listed.


    Ashburn, Richie
    Baker, Frank
    Bancroft, Dave
    Beckley, Jake
    Bender, Chief
    Blyleven Bert
    Bresnahan, Roger
    Brown, Ray
    Brown, Willard
    Bunning, Jim
    Carew, Rod
    Carter, Gary
    Chance, Frank
    Chesbro, Jack
    Collins, Jimmy
    Combes, Earl
    Cooper, Andy
    Dawson, Andre
    Day, Leon
    Doby, Larry
    Doerr, Bobby
    Duffy, Hugh
    Faber, Red
    Ferrell, Rick
    Flick,Elmer
    Fox, Nellie
    Gomez, Lefty
    Gordon, Joe
    Gossage, Rich
    Grant, Frank
    Gwynn, Tony
    Hafey, Chick
    Hill, Pete
    Hooper, Harry,
    Irvin, Monte
    Jackson, Travis
    Jennings, Hughie
    Johnson, Judy
    Joss, Addie
    Keeler, Willie
    Kell, George
    Kelly, George
    Kelly, King
    Klein, Chuck
    Kuyler, kiki
    Lazzeri, Tony
    Lindstrom, Fred
    Lombardi, Ernie
    Mackey, Biz
    Maranville, Rabbit
    Marquard, Rube
    Mazeroski, Bill
    McCarthy, Tommy
    McPhee, Bid
    Mendez, Jose
    Molitor, Paul
    Newhouser, Hal
    Rice, Jim
    Rice, Sam
    Santop, Louis
    Schalk, Ray
    Schoendinst, Red
    Sisler, George
    Slaughter, Enos
    Smith, Hilton
    Sutter, Bruce
    Suttles, Mule
    Sutton, Don
    Taylor, Ben
    Tinker, Joe
    Torriente, Crytol
    Wallace, Bobby
    Waner, Lloyd
    Ward, Monte
    Ekersley, Dennis
    Wells, Willie
    Wheat, Zack
    White, Deacon
    Williams, Smokey Joe
    Wilson, Jud
    Youngs, Ross,
    Last edited by JR Hart; 08-23-2014 at 07:41 PM.
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  8. #8
    Jim Bottomley
    Candy Cummings
    Rick Ferrell
    Chick Hafey
    Jesse Haines
    George Kell
    George Kelly
    Fred Lindstrom
    Rube Marquard
    Bill Mazeroski
    Tommy McCarthy
    Ray Schalk
    Lloyd Waner
    Red Schoendienst
    Pie Traynor
    Ross Youngs
    Last edited by drstrangelove; 08-24-2014 at 01:48 PM.
    "It's better to look good, than be good."

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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    I'll take a stab. I will say this,along with Garvey, there are many other non-HOFers that I rate better than many of these listed.


    Ashburn, Richie
    Baker, Frank
    Bancroft, Dave
    Beckley, Jake
    Bender, Chief
    Blyleven Bert
    Bresnahan, Roger
    Brown, Ray
    Brown, Willard
    Bunning, Jim
    Carew, Rod
    Carter, Gary
    Chance, Frank
    Chesbro, Jack
    Collins, Jimmy
    Combes, Earl
    Cooper, Andy
    Dawson, Andre
    Day, Leon
    Doby, Larry
    Doerr, Bobby
    Duffy, Hugh
    Faber, Red
    Ferrell, Rick
    Flick,Elmer
    Fox, Nellie
    Gomez, Lefty
    Gordon, Joe
    Gossage, Rich
    Grant, Frank
    Gwynn, Tony
    Hafey, Chick
    Hill, Pete
    Hooper, Harry,
    Irvin, Monte
    Jackson, travis
    Jennings, Hughie
    Johnson, Judy
    Joss, Addie
    Keeler, Willie
    Kell, George
    Kelly, George
    Kelly, King
    Klien, Chuck
    Kuyler, kiki
    Lazzeri, Tony
    Lindstrom, Fred
    Lombardi, Ernie
    Mackey, Biz
    Maranville, Rabbit
    Marquard, Rube
    Mazeroski, Bill
    McCarthy, Tommy
    McPhee, Bid
    Mendez, Jose
    Molitor, Paul
    Newhouser, Hal
    Rice, Jim
    Rice, Sam
    Santop, Louis
    Schalk, Ray
    Schoendinst, Red
    Sisler, George
    Slaughter, Enos
    Smith, Hilton
    Sutter, Bruce
    Suttles, Mule
    Sutton, Don
    Taylor, Ben
    Tinker, Joe
    Torriente, Crytol
    Wallace, Bobby
    Waner, Lloyd
    Ward, Monte
    Ekersley, Dennis
    Wells, Willie
    Wheat, Zack
    White, Deacon
    Williams, Smokey, joe
    Wilson, Jud
    Youngs, Ross,
    All except Rick Ferrell, Chick Hafey, Fred Lindstrom, Rube Marquard, Bill Mazeroski, Tommy McCarthy, Ray Schalk and Lloyd Waner should be removed from this list, especially the bolded names.
    Last edited by Yilan Dai; 08-23-2014 at 08:11 PM.
    Great pitching always beat great hitting. Clutch hitting always beat great pitching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yilan Dai View Post
    All except Rick Ferrell, Chick Hafey, Fred Lindstrom, Rube Marquard, Bill Mazeroski, Tommy McCarthy, Ray Schalk and Lloyd Waner should be removed from this list, especially the bolded names.
    are you making a list, or just criticizing mine?

    You bolded the players who I think are the most overrated.
    If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

    -Bob Dylan

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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    are you making a list, or just criticizing mine?

    You bolded the players who I think are the most overrated.
    Just a friendly suggestion.
    Great pitching always beat great hitting. Clutch hitting always beat great pitching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    I'll take a stab. I will say this,along with Garvey, there are many other non-HOFers that I rate better than many of these listed.


    Ashburn, Richie
    ....
    Youngs, Ross,
    I need a little help double-checking this. I got 81 entries. As an aside, no one else has more than 16. I also note that JR didn't include four guys who were mentioned by other voters, which may be oversights: Jim Bottomley, Candy Cummings, Jesse Haines and Pie Traynor.
    Last edited by jalbright; 08-24-2014 at 06:58 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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    The bottom line here is that the consensus obviously believes Steve Garvey's enshrinement would rank among the worst Hall selection of all time were it to occur. Other than the outlier, these lists are pretty much unanimous that the only inductees Garvey would be more deserving than are men whose past induction should never be used as a standard for future elections. Striking.

    Incidentally, Jim, put me down as 100% copy of your list, also. That's exactly who I'd say off the top of my head. (Other than I'd quibble over Cummings since he's classified by the Hall as a pioneer.)
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

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    Cummings could be excluded as a pioneer, but Tommy McCarthy doesn't meet the standard of a HOF OF, either, but he did do things as a player that led to rule changes. Guys like Spalding and Clark Griffith and Rube Foster add significant executive qualifications to their play, and that arguably separates them from guys like Cummings, who really still is only in for what he did as a player. That's the distinction I was aiming for.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    I need a little help double-checking this. I got 81 entries. As an aside, no one else has more than 16. I also note that JR didn't include four guys who were mentioned by other voters, which may be oversights: Jim Bottomley, Candy Cummings, Jesse Haines and Pie Traynor.
    Haines was an oversight Garvey was more worthy than him.

    However, I feel that Bottomley and Traynor are more worthy than Garvey. i've never understood the trashing of Traynor here. He was clearly one the top 3B for the first 100 of MLB.
    If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

    -Bob Dylan

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    Haines was an oversight Garvey was more worthy than him.

    However, I feel that Bottomley and Traynor are more worthy than Garvey. i've never understood the trashing of Traynor here. He was clearly one the top 3B for the first 100 of MLB.
    Traynor was extremely overrated and overhyped. A lot of the trashing of Traynor is backlash against this. Traynor was a solid third baseman and, IMO a HOFer.

  17. #17
    Most lists here have Mazeroski as a poorer player than Garvey. Personally, I'm not at all sure about this. Remember, we're not arguing whether Maz merits HOF-enshrinement, just whether he or Garvey is better.

    I like both of these guys quite a bit as players. I saw Mazeroski through the entirety of his career. He is without doubt the best defensive second baseman I have seen in 60 years of following baseball. He won 8 Gold gloves and probably deserved at least 2 more. Despite his 84 career OPS+, he was, in my opinion, a somewhat better than average hitting middle infielder for his era, through the majority of his career. He had good power for a middle infielder and probably would have come close to 200 career homers with a neutral home field rather than Forbes Field. He rarely walked but that was partly a function of his batting 8th in the Pirates lineup most of the time. One demerit for Mazeroski is his early demise, as he was basically done as a fulltime player by age 33, due to weight and leg problems.

    Garvey was a good player for more than a decade. He had good extra base power, decent home run power, and put the ball in play a lot. Clearly, he was a better hitter than Mazeroski, but to be fair, he wasn't a lot above average for his position. He does have an advantage of several more seasons as a regular. Garvey was a much better fielder than his dWAR ranking, but he wasn't exceptional.

    So, who has the edge. Mazeroski was a legendary fielder (by merit) at an important position and a better than average hitting middle infielder. Garvey was a good hitter, but not exceptional by first base standards. He played a less critical position well, but not exceptionally. And he lasted a couple of years longer.

    To me, this is about as close to a tossup as you can get for two very different types of players.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    Haines was an oversight Garvey was more worthy than him.

    However, I feel that Bottomley and Traynor are more worthy than Garvey. i've never understood the trashing of Traynor here. He was clearly one the top 3B for the first 100 of MLB.
    You think that Traynor was a better player than Sisler?

  19. #19
    One guy who I do rate Garvey above and J R doesn't (I think) is Chuck Klein.

    Klein went .286/.346/.466 on the road, and in a period that favored power hitters in WAR. He has under a 120 road based OPS+, and he'd actually have fewer WAR and WAA than Garvey if we used his road rates to predict his overall level (with a normal home adjustment). He'd have about 3 WAA and 26 WAR, and I think Garvey's league was better, plus he's an all time great post season player and he's underrated in war.

    One analysis I did concluded that Garvey drove in about 140 more runs than would be predicted by WAR based on his runners on base and in scoring position, and he scored the expected number of runs. That alone would get him to 50 war, plus he's underrated on defense. He's probably more like a 55 WAR guy than a 36 war guy, I just don't want such a big hall of fame.

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    Not including Negro Leaguers, most of whom are undeserving...

    High Pockets Kelly
    Bruce Sutter
    Catfish Hunter

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    Quote Originally Posted by drstrangelove View Post
    Jim Bottomley
    Candy Cummings
    Rick Ferrell
    Chick Hafey
    Jesse Haines
    George Kell
    George Kelly
    Fred Lindstrom
    Rube Marquard
    Bill Mazeroski
    Tommy McCarthy
    Ray Schalk
    Lloyd Waner
    Red Schoendienst
    Pie Traynor
    Ross Youngs
    Rube Marquard
    I was wondering why Ross Youngs hadn't shown up more often before I saw this list (and JR's really long list out of a phone book or something). I went back yesterday to look up Youngs again before I had to run, and in that brief time I really didn't see anything that said he was better than Garvey. Just curious why he has been left off all the other lists? What am I missing with Youngs?

    I also am having a hard time trying to decide what pitchers were "below" the Garvey standard. How are you all rating a pitcher vs a first baseman? I am not trying to be critical, just curious.
    "It ain't braggin' if you can do it!" Dizzy Dean

    "The designated hitter rule is like letting someone else take Wilt Chamberlain's free throws." Rick Wise

    "Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you." Reggie Jackson

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Herr28 View Post
    I was wondering why Ross Youngs hadn't shown up more often before I saw this list (and JR's really long list out of a phone book or something). I went back yesterday to look up Youngs again before I had to run, and in that brief time I really didn't see anything that said he was better than Garvey. Just curious why he has been left off all the other lists? What am I missing with Youngs?

    I also am having a hard time trying to decide what pitchers were "below" the Garvey standard. How are you all rating a pitcher vs a first baseman? I am not trying to be critical, just curious.
    Oops, look like I listed him twice! Well his selection was really bad.

    Marquard has 8.8 WAA and a 103 ERA+ created entirely in the segregated baseball era. Between 1901-1939 there are 2 dozen pitchers not in the HoF (probably more) that were better than him. IMO, that translates to at best a slightly below average pitcher in Garvey's era. Should be removed from the Hall and not left there as a reminder of how easily the VC can be duped.


    Here's (at a minimum) a comp in Garvey's era for Rube Marquard. Someone a little better than Jack Billingham and a little worse than Fritz Peterson. Fritz, for example, put him back in 1908-1925, let him pitch where the ball is dead, the parks are huge and you can throw CG all the time, and Fritz would do much better than Rube imo. Anyone hankering to put Fritz in the Hall?


    As for rating, I just started looking over the list of the pitcher's by era and picked out some that weren't even close to his contemporaries. Marquard pitched when Mathewson, Alexander, Johnson pitched. He was not below---he was well below---such household names as Eppa Rixey, Red Faber and Ted Lyons.

    David Wells, Curt Simmons, Vida Blue? Much better than Marquard.
    Last edited by drstrangelove; 08-24-2014 at 02:10 PM.
    "It's better to look good, than be good."

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Herr28 View Post
    I was wondering why Ross Youngs hadn't shown up more often before I saw this list (and JR's really long list out of a phone book or something). I went back yesterday to look up Youngs again before I had to run, and in that brief time I really didn't see anything that said he was better than Garvey. Just curious why he has been left off all the other lists? What am I missing with Youngs?

    I also am having a hard time trying to decide what pitchers were "below" the Garvey standard. How are you all rating a pitcher vs a first baseman? I am not trying to be critical, just curious.
    I was just putting up pitchers I thought were worst. That's why I left a maybe and walked away. I'm almost now thinking that Garvey is catfish. Both won awards and had fame, but neither was as good as thought. At least, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brett View Post
    One guy who I do rate Garvey above and J R doesn't (I think) is Chuck Klein.

    Klein went .286/.346/.466 on the road, and in a period that favored power hitters in WAR. He has under a 120 road based OPS+, and he'd actually have fewer WAR and WAA than Garvey if we used his road rates to predict his overall level (with a normal home adjustment). He'd have about 3 WAA and 26 WAR, and I think Garvey's league was better, plus he's an all time great post season player and he's underrated in war.

    One analysis I did concluded that Garvey drove in about 140 more runs than would be predicted by WAR based on his runners on base and in scoring position, and he scored the expected number of runs. That alone would get him to 50 war, plus he's underrated on defense. He's probably more like a 55 WAR guy than a 36 war guy, I just don't want such a big hall of fame.
    Klein is on my list.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drstrangelove View Post
    Oops, look like I listed him twice! Well his selection was really bad.

    Marquard has 8.8 WAA and a 103 ERA+ created entirely in the segregated baseball era. Between 1901-1939 there are 2 dozen pitchers (probably more) that were better than him. IMO, that translates to at best a slightly below average pitcher in Garvey's era. Should be removed from the Hall and not left there as a reminder of how easily the VC can be duped.


    Here's (at a minimum) a comp in Garvey's era for Rube Marquard. Fritz Peterson. Put Fritz back in 1908-1925, let him pitch where the ball is dead, the parks are huge and you can throw CG all the time, and Fritz would do as well (better imo.) Anyone hankering to put Fritz in the Hall?
    OK, I see what you did. You were comparing those pitchers to their contemporaries, and making the judgement call as to how that would stack up with Garvey v his position players. I was just wondering about the comparisons there, because I have a real tough time trying to make those assessments when crossing the two very different sides of the ball like that. I appreciate the response. It was simple and makes perfect sense.
    "It ain't braggin' if you can do it!" Dizzy Dean

    "The designated hitter rule is like letting someone else take Wilt Chamberlain's free throws." Rick Wise

    "Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you." Reggie Jackson

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