Mike Mussina

[ballparks]

I'm interested to see what others' thoughts on this topic, spurred by a posting I recently read calling Mussina a 'probable HOFer'.

I draw a comparison between Mussina and one of my all-time favorites, Jimmy Key. Key was first eligible in the 2004 election and garnered all of 3 (yes, three) votes out of 506, for a paltry 0.59%. Well off the ballot in his first year of eligibility. He got as many votes as Jim Eisenreich, one more than Doug Drabek and Juan Samuel, half as many as Dave Stieb.

5 best seasons (adjusted ERA)
Moose 163 159 149 142 138, career: 127
Key 164 141 141 140 138, career: 122

Career Totals:
Moose 211-119 (.639), 3.59 ERA, 10.52 HW/9
Key 186-117 (.614), 3.51 ERA, 11.07 HW/9

Awards and Honors:
Moose 5 ASG, .91 CY Shares (0 awards)
Key 4 ASG, 1.25 CY Shares (0 awards)

Playoff Performance:
Moose 6-6, 3.16 ERA, 0 MVP awards (1-1 WS with 3.00 ERA), 0 WS won
Key 5-3, 3.15 ERA, 0 MVP awards (3-1 WS with 2.66 ERA), 2 WS won

Intagibles:
both played for the Yankees, Orioles
Key was part of a quasi-dynasty in Toronto, Mussina was the stud on a perrenial playoff team

Please don't get me wrong, this is hardly an argument for electing Jimmy Key into the hall or saying that he's one of the elites that is deserving of enshrinement. I'm also not saying that Key is better than Moose, in fact, I'd argue the opposite, but not by a heck of a lot. Certainly not by enough that Key's garnering only 3/506 hall votes would mean Mussina would be a 'probable'. At this juncture, I'd say turn that 'probable' into a 'no way'.

[Brad Harris]

Mike Mussina is 36 years old this season. He will likely log his 3,000th inning sometime this season. He is 39 wins short of 250 and 89 short of 300. His winning percentage is well over .600. He is 742 strikeouts shy of 3,000. He has pitched well in playoff (in general) and World Series (in particular) competition. Particularly telling is his 130 strikeouts in 119-2/3 post-season innings.

Mussina's 127 ERA+ is fantastic for a Hall candidate. He is also very adept with a glove, winning 6 gold glove awards in his career. While he has never been the best pitcher in the league, he is consistently among the best and his gray ink is outstanding. He meets more than 45% of the Hall standards and his Hall monitor is a positive for him.

Mussina's lack of a Cy Young Award or World Series ring has hurt his candidacy more than it should and, given his age, he's still got 2-3 solid years left in his arm in all likelihood.

I didn't say he was a lock, nor did I say he was deserving if he retired today, but he's certainly a good probability for making it as I look forward from this point on.

[Matthew C.]

If Mussian retired today, he would definately be on the outside looking in. However, if Mussina can put together 3 more good seasons or so, Mussina probably will have the credentials to get in. During the next few seasons, look for Mussina's ERA+ to go down as he moves into the mid 3000's IP. Since playing for an offensive loaded Yankees, his winning % should remain well above .600. If Mussina ends his career with 260 wins( .625 W%) and a 120 ERA+, he will probably have enough to make it, despite the lack of 20 win seasons and Cy Young awards.

[Blackout]

as a yankees fan, I can easily assure you that Mike Mussina isn't worthy of being in the HOF

[DoubleX]

If Mussina keeps chugging along at a decent pace, the 250-300 wins he'll likely end with will garner a lot of attention and serious consideration. The lack of a 20 win season will hurt his chances, and since coming to New York he's been good, but never had the feel of a Hall of Famer. It's a tough one. I say Mussina will stick on the ballot with decent support year after year, but will ultimately end up with the Tiants, Kaats, and the eventual Johns and Morrises of the baseball world.

[rockin500]

Moose is certainly not a lock for the hall, nor should he be. Even if he does pitch another 3 seasons (thats not a certainty, either) i dont think he will get in as his production is going down.

he was never the best pitcher in the league. I'd put him in the Hall of Very Good.

[Cougar]

Mussina needs more strong seasons to really have a strong HOF case. Watching him last year and this, I don't think he's consistent enough to do it. He's lost both velocity and movement on his pitches (note how much his K rate is down), and you just don't post strong seasons with the reduced stuff he has.

I think he's basically the Billy Pierce of his era.

I should add that I've never really liked him in a big game/spot. He gets too cute and seems to pitch just well enough to not win.

[J W]

Did someone say "waste of time"?

MLB starting pitchers only:

Pete Alexander
Bert Blyleven
Kevin Brown
Mordecai Brown
Steve Carlton
John Clarkson
Roger Clemens
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Don Drysdale

Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Tom Glavine
Lefty Gomez
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Fergie Jenkins
Randy Johnson
Walter Johnson

Tim Keefe
Sandy Koufax
Bob Lemon
Ted Lyons
Greg Maddux
Juan Marichal
Pedro Martinez
Christy Mathewson
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity

Hal Newhouser
Phil Niekro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Eddie Plank
Charles Radbourn
Robin Roberts
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Nolan Ryan

Kid Nichols
Curt Schilling
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn
Don Sutton
Dazzy Vance
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Early Wynn
Cy Young
....

Well, I can name 40 no problem. Those last ten were real shaky. "Greater" is a tough word to decipher... Sutton and Wynn can lay claim to 300 wins, which isn't a far cry from 289, but is a far cry from 211. Ruffing can rely on his stellar World Series career. Kevin Brown has a higher ERA+. Mussina is definitely sniffing around the bottom of the list, if he doesn't deserve a spot anyway--and that's if he retired today.

Let's put it this way: I don't think I can name 50 MLB starting pitchers "better" than Mussina.

[mac195]

I take issue with the guys in bold. They are either around Mussina's level or below him:

Pete Alexander
Bert Blyleven
Kevin Brown
Mordecai Brown
Steve Carlton
John Clarkson
Roger Clemens
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Don Drysdale

Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Tom Glavine
Lefty Gomez
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Fergie Jenkins
Randy Johnson
Walter Johnson

Tim Keefe
Sandy Koufax
Bob Lemon
Ted Lyons
Greg Maddux
Juan Marichal
Pedro Martinez
Christy Mathewson
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity

Hal Newhouser
Phil Niekro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Eddie Plank
Charles Radbourn
Robin Roberts
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Nolan Ryan

Kid Nichols
Curt Schilling
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn
Don Sutton
Dazzy Vance
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Early Wynn
Cy Young
....

[ballparks]

[QUOTE=mac195]I take issue with the guys in bold. They are either around Mussina's level or below him: [QUOTE]

Take exception all you'd like. I can't see Moose coming close to any of those 10 in both numbers and accomplishment over the course of their careers.

I guess were you a hall of fame voter, you'd be one of the <5% of voters that would enshrine Mussina.

He's gone after ballot number one in my books.

[mac195]

I'd happily wager a large sum of money on Mussina at least making the 5% cut. Too bad we won't find out for another 8-10 years.

[RuthMayBond]

[QUOTE=ballparks][QUOTE=mac195]I take issue with the guys in bold. They are either around Mussina's level or below him:

Take exception all you'd like. I can't see Moose coming close to any of those 10 in both numbers and accomplishment over the course of their careers.

Drysdale 121 ERA+, Moose has a shot at this
Lefty Gomez, 2503 IP & 125 ERA+. Moose has a pretty good shot at the first one
Bob Lemon, 2850 IP & 119 ERA+. Probably can do the first
Carl Mays, 3021 IP & 119 ERA+. Possible

[pjwvolk]

I take issue with the guys in bold. They are either around Mussina's level or below him:

Pete Alexander
Bert Blyleven
Kevin Brown
Mordecai Brown
Steve Carlton
John Clarkson
Roger Clemens
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Don Drysdale

Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Tom Glavine
Lefty Gomez
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Fergie Jenkins
Randy Johnson
Walter Johnson

Tim Keefe
Sandy Koufax
Bob Lemon
Ted Lyons
Greg Maddux
Juan Marichal
Pedro Martinez
Christy Mathewson
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity

Hal Newhouser
Phil Niekro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Eddie Plank
Charles Radbourn
Robin Roberts
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Nolan Ryan

Kid Nichols
Curt Schilling
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn
Don Sutton
Dazzy Vance
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Early Wynn
Cy Young
....

can you explain these please (or at least most of these, like schilling, radbourn, mcginnity, lemon, gomez, drysdale and brown)

[AlecBoy006]

No Cy Young? Can you say Nolan Ryan? No World Series? Can you say Roberts, Jenkins, and Phil Niekro?

Moose is a HOFER IMO

[RuthMayBond]

No World Series? Can you say Roberts, Jenkins, and Phil Niekro?

I can even say Ted Lyons, Gaylord Perry, Addie Joss and Jim Bunning

[1905 Giants]

Im curious because i've heard TV Announcers and others support and despise the idea of Mussina getting in the Hall.

Here's how he stands after 2005:
.638 winning percentage
224 Wins
125 ERA+ (61st all time)
2400 Strikeouts
648 Walks
0 Cy Young Awards
6 times in top 5 of ERA
6 times in top 5 in wins
6th in Active Player Wins
9th in Career strikeouts to Walk
38th in career Win/Loss Percentage (Though he played for some dang good teams)
7th in Active Player WHIP
8th in Active Innings
6th in Active Complete Games

[The Dude]

Mussina in my opinion is a yes. He was perenially one of the best pitchers in baseball. Granted, he might never have been the best (then again with Clemens, Unit, and Pedro in your league, it's tough) but he was consistently one of the top five pitchers in his league for almost 10 years. And we're not talking pretty good consistnency like Don Sutton. We're talking an all-star calibre pitcher here.

One only needs to look at his gray ink to look at how versatile a pitcher he was. He got wins, he struck players out. He went the distance, he shut teams down. He was consistently doing everything right all the time.

He was also a great team leader. Look at the Orioles. Before Mussina got there, they were a team at the bottom. From 1992-1997 Mussina led them to the playoffs twice, with a division and a wild card title. During those years, they finished 3rd 3 times, 2nd twice, and first once.

I think Mussina is a worthy candidate for the HOF. He's not the greatest ever, but he performed well for a while.

[Cougar]

He's never been dominant. I don't think he's even ever been close to dominant. He's been very good for about 15 years.

That's not entirely disqualifying, but it's a major strike against him. One must compensate for this with overwhelming career stats, which in my opinion he doesn't have yet.

He needs to get to 250 wins, at least. Until then, I'm rather contemptuous of Mussina's HOF claims myself.

[digglahhh]

I'm in agreement with Cougar.

Mussina is a "hall of very good" guy for me.

What might help him is a steroid backlash giving more recognition to the second tier pitchers of the era. Time will tell if that happens.

[Brad Harris]

He'll almost certainly finish with 270+ wins and 3,000 strikeouts, which clears those kind of hurdles, in my opinion. He could arguably have been the best pitcher in the league a few times, regardless of whether he was voted a Cy Young Award or not (though that would certainly help.)

Frankly, I'd like to see him win 20 games this season en route to a World Championship, neither of which he's attained before.

He's struck out more than a batter per inning and maintained a 3.30 ERA in 21 post-season games, very good numbers for a starter in the nineties and aughts.

If he retired now, he's probably a little below the line, but I'm pretty confident Mussina - age 36 - will clinch it between now and the time he hangs up his spikes.

[DTF955]

I'd compare him more to Bert Blyleven - Hall of Very Good, as someone said, right now. If he hangs on 5 more years, he has a shot - remember Bert's 1989 was pretty good. 1984 for Bert is like some of those seasons where Mussina could hve been the best int he league but didn't get the Cy.

However, Blyleven had 2 world titles ('79 and '87) and at least 1 20-win season, though i don't recall if he did a 2nd time.

Having enjoyed Blyleven immensely growing up, I really am starting to think more and more that he might be Hall worthy. If Mussina hangs on another 4-5 years, I'd put him in Blyleven's category and consider him. However, not quite yet

[Chisox]

Im curious because i've heard TV Announcers and others support and despise the idea of Mussina getting in the Hall.

Here's how he stands after 2005:
.638 winning percentage
224 Wins
125 ERA+ (61st all time)
2400 Strikeouts
648 Walks
0 Cy Young Awards
6 times in top 5 of ERA
6 times in top 5 in wins
6th in Active Player Wins
9th in Career strikeouts to Walk
38th in career Win/Loss Percentage (Though he played for some dang good teams)
7th in Active Player WHIP
8th in Active Innings
6th in Active Complete Games

He also played on some duds. He's a career Oriole, and was an Oriole for nearly all his prime. He also was THE pitcher the times the O's did make the playoffs, and really was their only option on the mound.
He does have an ERA+ of 125, and had ERA+ of 163 in '94 and 159 in '92. That ERA+ of 125 (entering the year) is the same as Jim Palmer (wanna make an arguement against him) and is also the same as [b]Tim Keefe[b] and two points lower than Tom Seaver and Bob Gibson. Wanna try making a case against them? Heck, Sandy Koufax's is 131 and Dean's 130, and Mussina has already thrown over 1,000 more innings than Dean and will have thrown around 1000 more by the end of the season. I think he's got a much stronger case than people realize.

[KCGHOST]

Failing to win 20 games shouldn't normally be held against a team, but you have to wonder why Mussina never did it when you consider the caliber of clubs he spent most of his career on good offensive clubs. He seems to rack up a lot of "no decisions".

My guess is that if he gets to 250 wins he will have no problem getting in, but maybe not first year or two.

[leecemark]

--I agree with the earlier comparison to Bert Blyleven, although I have Blyleven a little ahead based on his significant advantage in IP. Being in Blyleven's class makes you better than a fair number of Hall of Famers, but Bly isn't exactly having an easy time of convincing the voters.

[Monzonater]

he will make it
he is the HORSE so yea he is good alround player
he wont deff be the best pitcher but i would to have him on my club
he will be in the HoF