Mike Mussina

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  • ballparks
    Registered User
    • Nov 2004
    • 398

    Mike Mussina

    I'm interested to see what others' thoughts on this topic, spurred by a posting I recently read calling Mussina a 'probable HOFer'.

    I draw a comparison between Mussina and one of my all-time favorites, Jimmy Key. Key was first eligible in the 2004 election and garnered all of 3 (yes, three) votes out of 506, for a paltry 0.59%. Well off the ballot in his first year of eligibility. He got as many votes as Jim Eisenreich, one more than Doug Drabek and Juan Samuel, half as many as Dave Stieb.

    5 best seasons (adjusted ERA)
    Moose 163 159 149 142 138, career: 127
    Key 164 141 141 140 138, career: 122

    Career Totals:
    Moose 211-119 (.639), 3.59 ERA, 10.52 HW/9
    Key 186-117 (.614), 3.51 ERA, 11.07 HW/9

    Awards and Honors:
    Moose 5 ASG, .91 CY Shares (0 awards)
    Key 4 ASG, 1.25 CY Shares (0 awards)

    Playoff Performance:
    Moose 6-6, 3.16 ERA, 0 MVP awards (1-1 WS with 3.00 ERA), 0 WS won
    Key 5-3, 3.15 ERA, 0 MVP awards (3-1 WS with 2.66 ERA), 2 WS won

    Intagibles:
    both played for the Yankees, Orioles
    Key was part of a quasi-dynasty in Toronto, Mussina was the stud on a perrenial playoff team

    Please don't get me wrong, this is hardly an argument for electing Jimmy Key into the hall or saying that he's one of the elites that is deserving of enshrinement. I'm also not saying that Key is better than Moose, in fact, I'd argue the opposite, but not by a heck of a lot. Certainly not by enough that Key's garnering only 3/506 hall votes would mean Mussina would be a 'probable'. At this juncture, I'd say turn that 'probable' into a 'no way'.
    144
    Yes
    83.33%
    120
    No
    16.67%
    24
    "Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you. What's that you say Mrs. Robinson? Joltin' Joe has left and gone away. Hey hey hey."
  • Chadwick
    Chasing Cooperstown
    • Sep 2002
    • 16797

    #2
    Mike Mussina is 36 years old this season. He will likely log his 3,000th inning sometime this season. He is 39 wins short of 250 and 89 short of 300. His winning percentage is well over .600. He is 742 strikeouts shy of 3,000. He has pitched well in playoff (in general) and World Series (in particular) competition. Particularly telling is his 130 strikeouts in 119-2/3 post-season innings.

    Mussina's 127 ERA+ is fantastic for a Hall candidate. He is also very adept with a glove, winning 6 gold glove awards in his career. While he has never been the best pitcher in the league, he is consistently among the best and his gray ink is outstanding. He meets more than 45% of the Hall standards and his Hall monitor is a positive for him.

    Mussina's lack of a Cy Young Award or World Series ring has hurt his candidacy more than it should and, given his age, he's still got 2-3 solid years left in his arm in all likelihood.

    I didn't say he was a lock, nor did I say he was deserving if he retired today, but he's certainly a good probability for making it as I look forward from this point on.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

    Comment

    • Bothrops Atrox
      IDC/ZRC/NJC*/*
      • Feb 2005
      • 31771

      #3
      If Mussian retired today, he would definately be on the outside looking in. However, if Mussina can put together 3 more good seasons or so, Mussina probably will have the credentials to get in. During the next few seasons, look for Mussina's ERA+ to go down as he moves into the mid 3000's IP. Since playing for an offensive loaded Yankees, his winning % should remain well above .600. If Mussina ends his career with 260 wins( .625 W%) and a 120 ERA+, he will probably have enough to make it, despite the lack of 20 win seasons and Cy Young awards.
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      Comment

      • Blackout
        Circle of Bosses
        • Apr 2005
        • 4595

        #4
        as a yankees fan, I can easily assure you that Mike Mussina isn't worthy of being in the HOF

        Comment

        • DoubleX
          Just a Fool
          • Feb 2004
          • 11318

          #5
          If Mussina keeps chugging along at a decent pace, the 250-300 wins he'll likely end with will garner a lot of attention and serious consideration. The lack of a 20 win season will hurt his chances, and since coming to New York he's been good, but never had the feel of a Hall of Famer. It's a tough one. I say Mussina will stick on the ballot with decent support year after year, but will ultimately end up with the Tiants, Kaats, and the eventual Johns and Morrises of the baseball world.

          Comment

          • rockin500
            Cubs Fan
            • Jan 2003
            • 2687

            #6
            Moose is certainly not a lock for the hall, nor should he be. Even if he does pitch another 3 seasons (thats not a certainty, either) i dont think he will get in as his production is going down.

            he was never the best pitcher in the league. I'd put him in the Hall of Very Good.

            Comment

            • mac195
              Registered User
              • Nov 2004
              • 2935

              #7
              I'm with Chancellor except not quite as optimistic for Mussina. I'd put his chances right around 50-50 at this point. Mussina is 211-120 now. If he can finish his career with 250+ wins, and at least 100 more wins than losses, then he'll be a shoe-in. If he delclines to the point that he is just a .500 pitcher from here on out, even with the Yankee line-up behind him, he probably won't get in.
              "The numbers are what brought me here; as it appears they brought you."
              - Danielle Rousseau

              Comment

              • ballparks
                Registered User
                • Nov 2004
                • 398

                #8
                Originally posted by mac195
                II'd put his chances right around 50-50 at this point.
                I'd put his chances at 50-50 to stay on beyond the first ballot.
                "Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you. What's that you say Mrs. Robinson? Joltin' Joe has left and gone away. Hey hey hey."

                Comment

                • mac195
                  Registered User
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 2935

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ballparks
                  I'd put his chances at 50-50 to stay on beyond the first ballot.
                  Well, I think that is WAY too optimistic. To go first ballot, Mussina would probably have to win a Cy Young, or get to 300 wins, and neither of those outcomes is likely at all. I'd put his chances of going first ballot at under 10%.
                  "The numbers are what brought me here; as it appears they brought you."
                  - Danielle Rousseau

                  Comment

                  • leecemark
                    Registered User
                    • Apr 2004
                    • 20010

                    #10
                    --I think he meant 50/50 that Mussina would be off the ballot after one election, not that he would be elected first ballot. I'd say he has no chance of being a first ballot inductee, short of hanging around long enough and good enough to win 300. On the other hand, the only way he is one and done if he goes Micheal Jackson on a bat boy or something. Mussina is likely to be a Blylevenesque candidate.

                    Comment

                    • ballparks
                      Registered User
                      • Nov 2004
                      • 398

                      #11
                      Originally posted by mac195
                      Well, I think that is WAY too optimistic. To go first ballot, Mussina would probably have to win a Cy Young, or get to 300 wins, and neither of those outcomes is likely at all. I'd put his chances of going first ballot at under 10%.
                      mac-
                      Read my initial post. I'd say that Moose getting 5% of the hall vote (should he retire now) would be a crime.
                      "Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you. What's that you say Mrs. Robinson? Joltin' Joe has left and gone away. Hey hey hey."

                      Comment

                      • mac195
                        Registered User
                        • Nov 2004
                        • 2935

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ballparks
                        mac-
                        Read my initial post. I'd say that Moose getting 5% of the hall vote (should he retire now) would be a crime.
                        OK then I think you are WAY too far in the anti-Mussina direction. His career to this point makes him better than at least 10-20% of the pitchers already in the HOF. Mussina is one of the top 50 pitchers of all time, and would be deserving if he ever gets elected. If he were to be dropped after the first ballot, it would be quite a travesty.
                        "The numbers are what brought me here; as it appears they brought you."
                        - Danielle Rousseau

                        Comment

                        • king_ghidora
                          Red Sox Massiv
                          • Apr 2005
                          • 128

                          #13
                          No way

                          Originally posted by mac195
                          Mussina is one of the top 50 pitchers of all time, and would be deserving if he ever gets elected. If he were to be dropped after the first ballot, it would be quite a travesty.
                          One of the fifty greatest of all time? Are you kidding me? He's never won 20 games, never won a Cy Young or any other pitching-related award, doesn't have a World Series ring, and he hasn't had an ERA under 3 since his first full season.

                          I'm not saying Mussina's a bad player. The Moose is quite a good pitcher and a very good fielder, but hey, come on, Cooperstown is for the greatest the game has ever had. Mussina will have to stand next to Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, John Smoltz, and ask to be enshrined. Hell, that fat slob David Wells has a better shot! And this isn't counting relievers like Hoffman, Rivera and more. To call Mussina one of the fifty greatest pitchers in history is ludicrous.

                          Comment

                          • RuthMayBond
                            Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 19670

                            #14
                            Originally posted by king_ghidora
                            One of the fifty greatest of all time? Are you kidding me? He's never won 20 games, never won a Cy Young or any other pitching-related award, doesn't have a World Series ring, and he hasn't had an ERA under 3 since his first full season.

                            I'm not saying Mussina's a bad player. The Moose is quite a good pitcher and a very good fielder, but hey, come on, Cooperstown is for the greatest the game has ever had. Mussina will have to stand next to Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, John Smoltz, and ask to be enshrined. Hell, that fat slob David Wells has a better shot! And this isn't counting relievers like Hoffman, Rivera and more. To call Mussina one of the fifty greatest pitchers in history is ludicrous.
                            Name 50 better (and Mr. 110 ERA+ Wells doesn't cut it)
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                            Comment

                            • leecemark
                              Registered User
                              • Apr 2004
                              • 20010

                              #15
                              --Our "Greatest Pitchers of All Time" polls got to #60 without electing Mussina. He was gaining some support when we ran out of steam, so he likely would have finished somewhere between 60-70. That isn't neccessarily the final word on where he ranks amoung the all timers, but it does suggest you can come up with 50 reasonable names ahead of him. Wells most definately not being one of them.

                              Comment

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