View Poll Results: Is Mike Mussina a Hall of Famer?

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  • Yes

    120 83.33%
  • No

    24 16.67%
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Thread: Mike Mussina

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Classic View Post
    Now that's a list I'd be interested in seeing. How many pitchers were in the Top Ten in their league in K/BB that many times?
    20 CYoung
    16 WJohnson, Clemens, BLYLEVEN!
    15 GCAlexander, Mathewson
    14 Maddux

    I have Mussina as being in the top10 only 13 times
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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  2. #202
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    Mussina has hurt his chances for induction with a mediocre year to date.

    I think he needs 270 wins to get in, and that's going to be tough. He might rebound, but I'm not sure he has a lot in the tank.

    Mussina's only 6-4 to date, with an ERA at league average. This hurts him, period.
    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

    NL President Ford Frick, 1947

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
    Mussina has hurt his chances for induction with a mediocre year to date.

    I think he needs 270 wins to get in, and that's going to be tough. He might rebound, but I'm not sure he has a lot in the tank.

    Mussina's only 6-4 to date, with an ERA at league average. This hurts him, period.
    I don't necessarily disagree, but why "270"?

  4. #204
    Mussina is, I think 87th in career innings pitched and 77th in relative ERA, but I am pretty sure that there is only 1 or 2 guys with more IP AND a better relative ERA not in. There may not be any right now.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett View Post
    Mussina is, I think 87th in career innings pitched and 77th in relative ERA, but I am pretty sure that there is only 1 or 2 guys with more IP AND a better relative ERA not in. There may not be any right now.
    I didn't find any, but Will White is close
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    I didn't find any, but Will White is close

    Here is a the list of eligible non hall of fame pitchers for whom there is no non hall of famer who tops them in both ERA+ and innings pitched:

    Blylevin: 4970/118
    Will White: 3543/120
    Nig Cuppy 2284/127.0
    Joe Wood: 1436/146.31
    Dan Quizenberry 1043/146.38

    The following pitchers also satisfy the requirements except that they are not eligible at this time: (there are others who are either locks or who have not pitched 10 years yet, Clemens, Santana, Webb, Oswalt).

    Mussina: 3311/123
    Smoltz: 3295/126.6
    Kevin Brown: 3256/126.8

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Commissioner View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree, but why "270"?
    It's super-subjective; he may get in with less, but then, again, he may need 300, and he's not going to get that, at least based on how he's going now.

    Most guys with 270 wins ARE in the HOF. The exceptions are Blyleven, John, and Kaat, and there are some reasons why these guys are not in the HOF. John and Kaat extended their careers FAR beyond the norm to get to that point. Blyleven has the best record of the three, but his W-L mark is the closest to .500 and he only won 20 games once. None of these guys won a Cy Young Award.

    Mussina's never won 20, and that's gonna hurt him bad, but he also sports a better ERA vs. league than any of those three guys. If Mussina had won 20 even once, he'd be odds-on for the HOF; if he had won 20 games three times, he'd be a shoo-in; we'd be talking about how much better he has been, in comparision to Schilling. Voters are going to balk about Mussina not getting to 20 wins, so his career is going to have to have some more bulk in the W column without battering the W-L pct too badly. I think Mussina MIGHT be able to pitch long enough to get to 270 without damaging his career record too terribly. If he does that, he will LIKELY (though not assuredly) make the HOF.
    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

    NL President Ford Frick, 1947

  8. #208
    Mussina's greatest days were long ago with the Orioles, and even then he wasn't that great since he never won more than 19 games in a season. The Yankees have been winning divisions in spite of Mussina, not because of him. No way is he a Hall Of Famer, even if he were to hang around four or five more years to win 300.

  9. #209
    Must be a lot of Yankees fans rushing to defend their man in pinstripes by giving Mussina a Yes vote for the Hall Of Fame. Conscientious and neutral fans or sportswriters would never give Mussina their vote.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by philliesfiend55 View Post
    Mussina's greatest days were long ago with the Orioles, and even then he wasn't that great since he never won more than 19 games in a season. The Yankees have been winning divisions in spite of Mussina, not because of him. No way is he a Hall Of Famer, even if he were to hang around four or five more years to win 300.
    The only reason he never won 20 games is because his two best seasons (both in which he was on pace to win over 20 games) were the two seasons that were cut short due to labor issues. Why does winning 20 games have to be a prerequisite for the HOF? Greg Maddux has only won 20 games twice. Does that mean Bob Lemon (7 times) is better?

    Mussina has an ERA that is 24% above average...better than about 50 guys in the Hall of Fame. He has also thrown 3,300 innings. It has already been stated that every single pitcher that has met both those standards waltzt into Cooperstown. In fact the following pitchers have not met at least one of those requirements:

    Warren Spahn
    Sandy Koufax
    Ed Walsh
    Steve Carlton
    Phil Nikero
    Gaylord Perry
    Lefty Gomez
    Don Drysdale
    Bery Blyleven
    Curt Schilling
    John Smoltz
    Tom Glavine
    Pedro Martinez
    Juan Marichal
    Bob Feller
    Don Drysdale
    Whitey Ford
    Don Sutton
    Fergie Jenkins
    Nolan Ryan...just to name a few.

    Obviously, I am not saying that Mussina is better than these guys, just that Mussina has pitched well enough, for enough innings to equal or surpas a lot of guys in these areas.


    Also, the Yankees, if my memory serves me correctly, won their fair share of divisions througout their history before Rivera, Jeter, A-Rod, etc. Should they not make Cooperstown either?
    Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 08-13-2007 at 05:27 PM.
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  11. #211
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    Obviously it is better to have a 140 ERA+ with 2,900 innings than 124 at 3,300 and some guys wern't far off (Marichal, M.Brown, K.Brown, Schilling), but here are the pitchers who have thrown 3,300 innings and mai tained at least a 124 ERA+ since 1900. Take it for what you will:

    Jim Palmer
    Tom Seaver
    Bob Gibson
    Carl Hubbell
    Greg Maddux
    Christy Mathewson
    Pete Alexander
    Randy Johnson
    Cy Young
    Roger Clemens
    Lefty Grove
    Walter Johnson
    Mike Mussina
    Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 08-13-2007 at 05:34 PM.
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by STLCards2 View Post
    Obviously it is better to have a 140 ERA+ with 2,900 innings than 124 at 3,300 and some guys wern't far off (Marichal, M.Brown, K.Brown, Schilling), but here are the pitchers who have thrown 3,300 innings and mai tained at least a 124 ERA+ since 1900. Take it for what you will:

    Jim Palmer
    Tom Seaver
    Bob Gibson
    Carl Hubbell
    Greg Maddux
    Christy Mathewson
    Pete Alexander
    Randy Johnson
    Cy Young
    Roger Clemens
    Lefty Grove
    Walter Johnson
    Mike Mussina
    It could be said of most of those guys that they were the best pitcher in their respective league for at least a couple of seasons. Pitchers like Bob Feller, Sandy Koufax and Pedro Martinez were also the best during several seasons.

    Mussina had a few seasons were he was among the best, but he was never the best pitcher in the American League in any season, let alone over a span of seasons.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt1901 View Post
    It could be said of most of those guys that they were the best pitcher in their respective league for at least a couple of seasons. Pitchers like Bob Feller, Sandy Koufax and Pedro Martinez were also the best during several seasons.

    Mussina had a few seasons were he was among the best, but he was never the best pitcher in the American League in any season, let alone over a span of seasons.
    I did preface the list by stating I wasn't saying it wasn't a great list, but I was just using it as a frame of reference. I agree that the pitchers you mentioned are all better than Mike Mussina.

    I also agree that Mussina was tnever oncethe best pitcher in the league. However, I will list the following seasons in which I think he was a top 10 pitcher, and where I rank him.

    1992 2nd (behind Clemens)
    1994 2nd (behind Cone)
    1995 2nd (behind Johnson)
    1997 5th
    1999 3rd
    2000 5th
    2001 5th
    2003 7th
    2006 4th

    Keep in mind Mussina had to pitch in the same league which featured some of the greatest of all time: Clemens and Johnson and Pedro and Schilling and Santana ...even guys like Cone, Rogers, Wells, Moyer, Hudson, Buhrle,and others were capable of having a really good season at any time.

    Bottom line, Mussina had several seasons which would have been considered "the best" if the seasons was compared to the best from other years in other leagues.
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  14. #214
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    --In which seasons would you say Mussina's best season was better than the best pitcher that year? I suppose there probably are some seasons where nobody had a truely great year and Mussina, had he been there and at his best, may have been the best pitcher. Not very many though. Mussina has never had anything I'd a historically great season.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --In which seasons would you say Mussina's best season was better than the best pitcher that year? I suppose there probably are some seasons where nobody had a truely great year and Mussina, had he been there and at his best, may have been the best pitcher. Not very many though. Mussina has never had anything I'd a historically great season.

    Okay, so maybe there aren't too many years (after I checked) where Mussina would be the best. But he would be among the best during most any era. I am sure you agree that a pitcher doesn't have to have an "historicaly great" season to be considered a HOFer, right?
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  16. #216
    I couldn't cast a vote because the two choices given are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. I am somewhere in the middle between the two extremes on Mussina.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle1 View Post
    I couldn't cast a vote because the two choices given are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. I am somewhere in the middle between the two extremes on Mussina.
    "Extremes"? One side is saying that Mussina was a very good pitcher who deserves to fall just short of Cooperstown and the other side is saying that that Mussina was a very good pitcher who is just good enough for Cooperstown. Where are the "extremes"? You must be right in the middle.
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  18. #218
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    Is Mussina this era's "Don Sutton"?
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by STLCards2 View Post
    "Extremes"? One side is saying that Mussina was a very good pitcher who deserves to fall just short of Cooperstown and the other side is saying that that Mussina was a very good pitcher who is just good enough for Cooperstown. Where are the "extremes"? You must be right in the middle.
    I believe the two choices are titled "heck yes" and "no way." I am more of a "time will tell" type of a guy on Mussina, you might say.

  20. #220

    Iron Mike

    Mussina looks like a catapult these days. He loads his "rock" lifts his arm a little above shoulder level and then slings it. The rock or ball travels steadily downward to the bottom of the strike zone and often below it. Its a wonder that major league hitters can't figure out how to beat him more often because Mussina has become a Johnny One-Note. Batters should be waiting and primed to uppercut his sinker slop, but ready to lay off it when it drops out of the strike zone. He doesn't even look like a pitcher, more like a poor imitation of a "Iron Mike".
    A high winning percentage registered with with ORIOLES was his chief claim to a Hall Of Fame candidacy. With the Yankees, a better team, that winning percentage just continues to drop each year.

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