Mike Mussina

[Mariano_Rivera]

Hi there. I am currently listening to the YanksJays home opener and there's talk that Mike Mussina is a lock for the Hall of Fame. I wont deny that he's been a winner his entire career, has an admirable winning percentage and an impressive win total, especially since many would argue that Glavine may be the last of the 300 game winners. All that aside, is this guy special?

He never won a Cy Young. He never won a World Series or pitched a special post-season game. He lead the league once in wins and once, in 1992, with an insane .738% win-loss percentage. He's never really been an ace, save for 9 years with Orioles, who with exception with a flirtation atop the AL East standings in the early 90s were never contenders.

He compares, statistically, to Jack Morris and if I had to choose between the two, El Moustachio gets my vote every single time.

Can anyone actually explain this?

Yes I can, John Sterling is incredibly biased

[JaysFan76]

I was actually listening to Jays broadcast and Jerry Howarth, a great baseball voice, said the same. Mussina is a lock.

[dgarza]

Mussina has strong credentials and should, I believe, make the Hall. But he simply is not a lock. I see him in the Jim Bunning range of pitchers, and it took Bunning forever to get in.

He's never really been an ace, save for 9 years with Orioles, who with exception with a flirtation atop the AL East standings in the early 90s were never contenders.

Never been an ace, but was one for 9 years? Well, which is it? Actually, he probably was the Orioles' ace for most of the 90s, at least going by ERA. And he actually had the lowest ERA while with the Yankees 3 times. I don't know if that makes him an ace or not, but he was most often the standout pitcher on the teams he played with.

On another note, while the Orioles were the best team in their division only once during the 90s, they certainly were contenders for a while there. 6 3rd place or better seasons and 3 2nd place or better seasons.

[JaysFan76]

Do you think Mussina was great, though? To me, that's what the Hall is for. There have been certain benchmarks throughout the ages - 300 wins, 500 homers, 3,000 hits - that have guaranteed entry, but still, i think a guy should be great. For instance, i look at a guy like Don Sutton, who won 300 but was never great, in my estimation. On the other side, you have Pedro, who won't win 250 but was GREAT.

[DWick53]

I say he is not a lock, but he is pretty close to the Cooperstown.

I agree that Jack Morris is definitely better than Moose, hands down, but his win-loss percentage is very impressive and for him to be a stellar pitcher at his age is amazing.

I'd say let him in, but probably not during his first year of eligibility.

[jjpm74]

He's not a lock by any means, but if he has a good season this year, he's definitely welcome in Cooperstown conversations, IMO.

[JaysFan76]

what's funny is that they were saying on the broadcast this evening that were it not for Pettite's back spasms Mussina would not even have a spot in the rotation

[jjpm74]

what's funny is that they were saying on the broadcast this evening that were it not for Pettite's back spasms Mussina would not even have a spot in the rotation

Mussina had a spot spasms or not. Maybe they were thinking back to the beginning of March when the starting lineup was going to include Chamberlain? Mussina still has this year with the Yankees under contract and is an effective veteran pitcher if nothing else. Personally, I'd like to see him hang around a few more years and get to 300 wins.

[JaysFan76]

I think you're right. To me he's like Jim Thome - good, consistent, but not great.

As a Jay fan, I look at Joe Carter, who for 9 years average 30 homers and 100 RBIs, won two world series and was only the second person in history to decide a world series with a home run. Cooperstown? I am afraid not.

[brett]

Mussina is a shade behind three guys who should all get in based on stats-one who probably won't, especially with recent steroid or GH issues.

Those 3 are Kevin Brown, John Smoltz and Cut Schilling. Brown and Smoltz actually are among a group of just 5 pitchers for whom no eligible NON hall of famer tops BOTH in IP and ERA+. The others are Blylevin, Quisenberry and S.J. Wood. Bly should be in. Quiz and Wood both are close in my view. I could see Quiz in.

Mussina has slipped a little on them in ERA+ (122 or 123 now) but has 250 wins. With 3300+ IP and a 122 ERA+ there are very few non hall of famers who top him in both categories. I have him distinctly ahead of Steib, Guidry, Key, Saberhagen, Hershizer. Cicotte would be real close and might have been a HOFer in a different life. Really, Smoltz, Schilling and Brown are the only 3 who top him in all 3.

[Brad Harris]

Moose has the goods. Whether the voters can see that or not is highly questionable.

[steve rogers]

Do you think Mussina was great, though? To me, that's what the Hall is for. There have been certain benchmarks throughout the ages - 300 wins, 500 homers, 3,000 hits - that have guaranteed entry, but still, i think a guy should be great. For instance, i look at a guy like Don Sutton, who won 300 but was never great, in my estimation. On the other side, you have Pedro, who won't win 250 but was GREAT.

God I feel like such a Bill James worshipper lately. Any way, there is no standard for the Hall Of Fame. There never has been and never will there be one. When you mention 2 guys like Pedro and Sutton what you need to ask is what makes a pitcher better than another for his career. A guy in the Pedro mold who's great for 6 years, or a guy like Sutton who's very good for 15+ years. If you were starting a team from scratch and could pick one of two rookies and Player A will give you 6 years as one of the top 3 pitchers in baseball, Player B will give you 15+ years of 14-20 wins. That's a tough question. I couldn't give you an answer. Both player were great pitchers but had different types of careers. I think both are hall of famers.

The standard for the hall of fame is not Willie Mays and Ty Cobb. They're 2 of the 5 greatest players of all time. If they were the standard the hall of fame would have 10 people in it. If your standard is a few years of absolute dominance then Maris and Dale Murphy should be in there.

I think Mussina is a hall of famer. He's been an excellent pitcher for a long time.

By the way do you listen to Mike and the Mad Dog on WFAN? You're argument sounds exactly like Mad Dog's. I don't mean that in a negative way, but I do yell at the radio every time he goes off on the hall of fame.

Scott

[Los Bravos]

God I feel like such a Bill James worshipper lately. Any way, there is no standard for the Hall Of Fame. There never has been and never will there be one.

The standard for the hall of fame is not Willie Mays and Ty Cobb. They're 2 of the 5 greatest players of all time. If they were the standard the hall of fame would have 10 people in it.

I think Mussina is a hall of famer. He's been an excellent pitcher for a long time.

I edited this for reasons of brevity, but I agree with most everything in the whole post (although I'd like to see Dale Murphy in the Hall and over time I'm coming closer to saying that Maris should be, too.)

Mussina has finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting 6 times. He has 250 wins and he's 100 games over .500. I know lots of people like to affect the attitude that wins are as irrelevant as zip codes, but having a winning percentage that high, with that many decisions, is generally considered an important hallmark, with good reason.

As for the idea that Mike never pitched a special postseason game...that's simply wrong. His post season resumé includes 2 wins over Randy Johnson in the '97 ALDS (I'd call that pretty special, myself...) He had a 0.60 ERA in that year's ALCS, including a spellbinding duel with Orel Hershiser in G3, in which he pitched 7 innings of 3 hit, 1 run ball, with 15 Ks. For a follow up in G6, he went 8, gave up 1 hit and no runs and struck out 10. Am I the only one who remembers any of this? How about the 2003 Series, when he was the only Yankee to beat Josh Beckett, limiting the Marlins to 1 run over 7 innings, striking out 9?

Mike has a very solid case. He's not really a lock, but he's very close to being one, and he's far from done.

[The Splendid Splinter]

When you mention 2 guys like Pedro and Sutton what you need to ask is what makes a pitcher better than another for his career. A guy in the Pedro mold who's great for 6 years, or a guy like Sutton who's very good for 15+ years. If you were starting a team from scratch and could pick one of two rookies and Player A will give you 6 years as one of the top 3 pitchers in baseball, Player B will give you 15+ years of 14-20 wins. That's a tough question. I couldn't give you an answer. Both player were great pitchers but had different types of careers. I think both are hall of famers.

I agree with you there... Only thing I see is that with Pedro in those 6 or 7 years, he was the best pitcher in MLB.

Also on those 15+ years of 14-20 wins... that's hard to say... you can have like a 4.5 ERA and still get that many wins. I remember in like 2000 or 2001 where Hudson had 20 wins, but had 4.00 ERA and same with David Wells. Just saying you can be just average and get that many wins. Sutton had a few years like that ('69,'70,'74,'78,'85).

When you talked about your Player A/B and if you were starting a team... what happens with the other years with Player A? You give him 6 great years compare to like 15 years for Player B... Does player A still give you the other 9 years to make the years even? Do you give him just average years? Probably a better question than you said would be like would you rather have a career like Kevin Brown (Player A- he had a very good 6 year peak but have 15 years '89/'03 to even things out) or Sutton (Player B) if you were starting a team. I would take Brown in this case. Another question would be would you rather have Koufax (Player A-'57/'66 10 years) or Sutton (Player B) career? In this case, I would take Sutton.

[Brad Harris]

Best ERA+, min. 3,000 IP, Non-HoFers
143 Roger Clemens
138 Randy Johnson
134 Greg Maddux
127 Curt Schilling
127 Kevin Brown
127 John Smoltz
123 Eddie Cicotte
123 Silver King
122 Mike Mussina

Only Clemens, Johnson, Maddux and (barely) Smoltz have both a better ERA+ and more innings pitched than Mussina.

Highest Win Pct, min. 200 Wins, Non-HoFers
.658 Roger Clemens
.654 Randy Johnson
.635 Mike Mussina

Not just 250 wins, but 200 wins!

Best SO/BB Ratio, min. 3,000 IP, Non-HoFers
4.44 Tommy Bond
4.38 Curt Schilling
3.82 Jim Whitney
3.53 Mike Mussina

Bond and Whitney both retired prior before the mound was moved back to 60'6". No one with more IP than Moose has a better ratio than him.

[stejay]

I think Mussina may make it into the hall someday, but not first ballot. He has put up good numbers, just not outstanding enough for first ballot, or a lock.

[Brad Harris]

The distinction between a Hall-of-Famer and a "first ballot" Hall-of-Famer is a total canard. Either you belong or you don't. The only thing that ought to determine whether it's on the first ballot is the strength of competition you face the year you debut. And with each voter able to name ten players on their ballot, even that isn't sufficient excuse.

[J W]

Mike Mussina is the best pitcher in baseball history who never did and never will accomplish anything noteworthy.

My view of Mussina is incredibly biased but I had to throw that out there

[stejay]

pitched a special post-season game

Oh yeah, what do you call the first game of the WS in 2001 that he lost?? Also, the game 3 he won for the Yankees in the World Series of 2003?
Also, he is the first pitcher to win 10 or more games for 15 consecutive seasons. 6 gold gloves also into the mix.

[stejay]

Morris
18 Yr WL% .577
254 Wins
186 Losses
549 games
527 games started
175 complete games
3824.0 innings pitched
1657 earned runs
3.90 ERA

Mussina
17 Yr WL% .635
250 wins
144 losses
503 games
502 games started
57 complete games
3362.3 innings pitched
1383 earned runs
3.70 ERA

Statistically, Mussina is an ever so slightly better pitcher, and Mussina has only played one year less than Morris, and also in the roid era, it does sound better, as he was pitching to roided up players.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Without any of the milestones voters like, like 300 wins or 3000 K's (which hasn't exactly helped Bert Blyleven too much for now), or significant single game victories (game 3 of a lost WS does not count as such), Mussina is hardly a lock right now. But he's looking more and more like someone who will get in. The 250 wins in an era when that's very hard to come by is looking better and better.

[Brooklyn]

Highest Win Pct, min. 200 Wins, Non-HoFers
.658 Roger Clemens
.654 Randy Johnson
.635 Mike Mussina

Not just 250 wins, but 200 wins!.

where is Pedro?

[Paul Wendt]

Without any of the milestones voters like, like 300 wins or 3000 K's (which hasn't exactly helped Bert Blyleven too much for now)

The old 3000-K milestone has been weathered by the passage of time and pitchers.
Jim Bunning was second at 2855, just ahead of Cy Young but fifteen have passed him including six active. Eight of them have passed 3500 and Walter Johnson, including two active. Four have surpassed 4000, three 4500, and one 5000.

where is Pedro?

See also Bob Caruthers at baseball-reference
.688 in 2828.7 innings

Is it 3000 innings and 200 wins?

[Captain Cold Nose]

The old 3000-K milestone has been weathered by the passage of time and pitchers.
Jim Bunning was second at 2855, just ahead of Cy Young but fifteen have passed him including six active. Eight of them have passed 3500 and Walter Johnson, including two active. Four have surpassed 4000, three 4500, and one 5000.

Well, sure, but, artificial as it is, it does seem like a landmark, like 3000 hits or 400 HRs (also now no longer as important) for hitters. The writers whose jobs are to actually focus on the teams they cover and the games they play have shown a tendency to like simple numbers. You could have mentioned a guy like Mickey Lolich, whose K totals were fairly high up there on the all-time list but without that magic number and the regular season accomplishments of Bunning (100 wins in each league, perfecto and a no-hitter) he fell way short. Strikeouts have obviously moved to the back of the line with voters, as evidenced by Bly's taking 11 years to reach 60%. But would Bob Gibson have been elected first ballot without 3000 K's or would he have had to wait a couple years like contemporary Juan Marichal?

Does Mussina need that. No. Would it help him become a "lock"? As the old joke goes, it couldn't hurt.

[BSmile]

"where is Pedro?"

Good call. Pedro is .692 with 209 wins (93 losses).