View Poll Results: Is Mike Mussina a Hall of Famer?

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  • Yes

    113 83.09%
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    23 16.91%
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Thread: Mike Mussina

  1. #301
    I like long threads. It's interesting to read opinions from 3 years ago. The OP compared Mussina to Jimmy Key, and at the time, the comparison wasn't far off. I don't think anyone would look at Key's and Mussina's records as being similar now.

    STLCards2 and Classic both hit the nail on the head saying that he wasn't worthy at the time but would probably have enough credentials with a few more good seasons.

    I don't think Guidry cuts it. He pitched less than 2500 innings, and his ERA+ is 119. He's sometimes compared to Koufax, but Koufax had an ERA+ of 131, and Koufax's peak was better. Guidry's exceptional record was helped by playing for the Yankees. I think his peak was certainly HOF worthy, and one more 200+ inning season with an ERA under 3.00 probably would have been enough for me.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by highpockets View Post
    Mussina (let alone Blyleven) brings a lot more to the party than 270 wins. At 122, he's 88th in adjusted ERA+ or about 100 places higher than Steve Carlton at 115. He's 61st in batters faced, despite pitching in the limited pitch-count era. Take a look at his leader board on baseball-reference and check out some of his career rankings. When someone's that good for that long, he's HOF great.

    Look, I hate the guy: He went over to the dark side and he owns, owns, the Red Sox. His motion from the stretch makes me want to punch him. But give the devil his due.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  3. #303
    Anyone think Pettitte could make it? Here are his best seasons:

    (2005) 222.3 innings, 2.39 ERA, 177 ERA+, 17-9 for an offenisvely-challenged team
    ('97) 240.3 innings, 2.88 ERA, 155 ERA+, 18-7
    ('96) 221 innings, 3.87 ERA, 129 ERA+, 21-8

    He has one more 20-win season than Mussina and one more season with an ERA under 3.00. His record (215-127, .629 WL%) is better than that of any hof-eligible pitcher to never make the Hall. He's never won a Cy Young, but he has finished 2nd, 4th, 5th, 5th, and 6th in the voting.

    He has negatives though. His 3.89 ERA would be the highest of any pitcher in the Hall, and his 116 ERA+ isn't that impressive for someone who's only pitched 2732 innings. He's only finished in the top-10 in ERA 3 times (with no ERA titles), in the top-10 in innings twice (never led the league), and in the top-10 in WHIP twice (again, never led the league). His ERA has been above 4.00 the past 3 seasons, and he's coming off his 1st below average season.

    Jimmy Key: 187-117, 70 games above .500, 2592 innings, 3.51 ERA, 122 ERA+
    Andy Pettitte: 215-127, 88 games above .500, 2732 innings, 3.89 ERA, 116 ERA+

    Key's peak seasons were also great. Pettitte has to at least reach 275 wins and keep his career ERA below 4.00 to get serious consideration - unless he has an improbable 20-win season. If Mussina could do it, I don't see why Pettitte can't.
    Last edited by Mike90; 10-05-2008 at 08:54 PM.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravesfan1984 View Post
    Mussina is better though. He has a better win percentage.Blyleven only has 30 more wins then losses.
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike90 View Post
    Well, as I've pointed out an annoying amount of times, Mussina has finished in the top 6 in Cy Young voting 8 times, not including this season where he will almost certainly be mentioned. Also, just because he hasn't won the award doesn't mean he hasn't deserved it. He has a pretty good argument for being the best AL pitcher in 1992, '94, and '01 (actually, I probably wouldn't have given him the award any of those years, but how many pitchers who have been 2nd best in a league 3 times and had as many other outstanding seasons as Mussina's had been kept out of the hall?).

    Blyleven has finished top-10 in ERA 10 times and top-10 in ERA+ 12 times. He has thrown 4970 innings, 3701 strikeouts, and 60 shutouts. He was also awesome in the postseason. He is not just relying on his wins.
    Being in the top cy young awards is not used very often in HOF voting. Jack Morris finished in the top 10 Cy 7 times and finished 3rd twice and is not in. Here we can see either HOF players or future/borderline players and there Cy Young won.

    Roger Clemons 7
    Pedro Martinez 3
    Greg Maddux 4
    Tom Glavine 2
    Roy Halladay 1
    Randy Johnson 5

    While it may not be neccisary to win it seems the standard is that you need a Cy young to be a Hall of Famer

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Bravesfan1984 View Post
    Being in the top cy young awards is not used very often in HOF voting. Jack Morris finished in the top 10 Cy 7 times and finished 3rd twice and is not in. Here we can see either HOF players or future/borderline players and there Cy Young won.

    Roger Clemons 7
    Pedro Martinez 3
    Greg Maddux 4
    Tom Glavine 2
    Roy Halladay 1
    Randy Johnson 5

    While it may not be neccisary to win it seems the standard is that you need a Cy young to be a Hall of Famer
    So why would being in the top of the MVP, an argument you've used, be a solid case for the HOF? Is there really much of a difference?

    And, no, I'm not asking what the difference is between the awards. Why is MVP voting a legit gauge of an everyday player making the HOF but how a pitcher has done with CYA voting not?
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  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravesfan1984 View Post

    While it may not be neccisary to win it seems the standard is that you need a Cy young to be a Hall of Famer
    Juan Marichal, Nolan Ryan, Phil Niekro, and Don Sutton all say hi.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  8. #308
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    Wink

    While John Denny and Mark Davis call their lawyers.
    3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

    Im honored to go into the Baseball Hall of Fame with such a great group of men. - Tom Glavine.

  9. #309
    Don't forget Vuckovich.

    I don't like how the Cy Young voting is set up now. Why not vote for the top 5 pitchers (a rotation I guess) instead of the top 3? MVP voters list 10 players. Halving (halfing?) that for Cy Young voters makes sense to me.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Juan Marichal, Nolan Ryan, Phil Niekro, and Don Sutton all say hi.
    You do know all three of them won over 300 games an automatic guarentee for the Hall of Fame. They did not need a Cy Young. If Mussina gets to 300 then he defintly be in.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravesfan1984 View Post
    You do know all three of them won over 300 games an automatic guarentee for the Hall of Fame. They did not need a Cy Young. If Mussina gets to 300 then he defintly be in.
    You didn't explain Marichal
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    You didn't explain Marichal
    I think Marichal should of won in 1968. Even though Bob Gibson had a lower era Marichal had more wins. Marichal also finished 5th in mvp that year. In 1966 he finished 6th in the mvp voting. He really should have finished higher many years in the top 5 Cy Young but only the Cy Young winner is shown.Marichal has a better career era then Mussina and has much more twenty win seasons.
    Last edited by Bravesfan1984; 10-07-2008 at 02:45 PM.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravesfan1984 View Post
    Even though Bob Gibson had a lower era Marichal had more wins
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravesfan1984 View Post
    I think Marichal should of won in 1968. Even though Bob Gibson had a lower era Marichal had more wins and pitched 21 more innings. Marichal also finished 5th in mvp that year.
    Gibson also both walked more people and hit one more batter with a pitch. His control was obviously inferior. Marichal should have been the MVP and the Cy Young winner; Gibson was a loser. He lost 9 times with a 1.12 ERA. He was obviously not a clutch player and clearly not very valuable.

    I think Marichal should have been George Wallace's running mate too! He hit Johnny Roseboro just as hard as General LeMay hit Japan, and had better control.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    Gibson also both walked more people and hit one more batter with a pitch. His control was obviously inferior. Marichal should have been the MVP and the Cy Young winner; Gibson was a loser. He lost 9 times with a 1.12 ERA. He was obviously not a clutch player and clearly not very valuable.

    I think Marichal should have been George Wallace's running mate too! He hit Johnny Roseboro just as hard as General LeMay hit Japan, and had better control.
    I want a pitcher who wins the most games. If you have two players with the same amount of losses you would take the one with more wins. The difference between there era is not really that much.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Bravesfan1984 View Post
    I want a pitcher who wins the most games. If you have two players with the same amount of losses you would take the one with more wins. The difference between there era is not really that much.
    The difference between their era was nil: Marichal pitched from 1960 to 1975; Gibson from 1959 to 1975. If you believe that the difference between a 1.12 ERA and a 2.43 ERA is "not really that much," you are profoundly misinformed and should do more reading and less typing.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Bravesfan1984 View Post
    I want a pitcher who wins the most games. If you have two players with the same amount of losses you would take the one with more wins. The difference between there era is not really that much.
    I think you're the first person in history who thinks Marichal had a better season than Gibson in 1968.
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  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by highpockets View Post
    The difference between their era was nil: Marichal pitched from 1960 to 1975; Gibson from 1959 to 1975. If you believe that the difference between a 1.12 ERA and a 2.43 ERA is "not really that much," you are profoundly misinformed and should do more reading and less typing.
    I only wish Bravesfan1984 & I were both owned major league teams. I'd trade him all my pitchers with a sustained 6 to 8 ERA for his pitchers with a sustained 3 to 4 ERA, since double the ERA is not really that much different
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravesfan1984 View Post
    I want a pitcher who wins the most games. If you have two players with the same amount of losses you would take the one with more wins.
    Always? OK, why did Gibson "blow" so many games in 1968? Seven of his losses were by these scores:
    3-2
    1-0
    2-0
    3-1
    3-2
    1-0
    3-2

    Meanwhile, six of Marichal's "wins" were by these scores:
    5-4
    5-4
    9-5
    6-4
    8-4
    8-7

    Perhaps Juan's bat was adding more runs? No, Gibson's OPS+ was 26 points higher (39-13). Perhaps Juan's glove was making a difference? Well, Gibson won the gold glove that year, making 1 error to Marichal's 6.
    Last edited by Freakshow; 10-08-2008 at 10:55 AM.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravesfan1984 View Post
    You do know all three of them won over 300 games an automatic guarentee for the Hall of Fame. They did not need a Cy Young. If Mussina gets to 300 then he defintly be in.
    Ummm...Marichal won "only" 243 games. Seriously, you need to check the facts more often.
    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 10-08-2008 at 10:31 AM.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  21. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Ummm...Marichal won "only" 243 games. Seriously, you need to check the facts more often.l
    Now, now, HWR. he is, after all, the one here who knows baseball. Or don't you recall him telling us that?
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  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravesfan1984 View Post
    I think Marichal should of won in 1968. Even though Bob Gibson had a lower era Marichal had more wins. Marichal also finished 5th in mvp that year. In 1966 he finished 6th in the mvp voting. He really should have finished higher many years in the top 5 Cy Young but only the Cy Young winner is shown.Marichal has a better career era then Mussina and has much more twenty win seasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    I think you're the first person in history who thinks Marichal had a better season than Gibson in 1968.
    Holy cow! Seriously, Bravesfan. You really believe Marichal was better than Gibson in 1968?!! I don't even know where to begin. Marichal was better simply because he had more wins? That's your argument? Marichal was 5th in the MVP voting? Well, Gibson won the MVP in 1968.

    ERA
    Gibson 1.12
    Marichal 2.43

    ERA+
    Gibson 258
    Marichal 123

    WHIP
    Gibson 0.853
    Marichal 1.046

    Hits/9
    Gibson 5.85
    Marichal 8.14

    K/9
    Gibson 7.92
    Marichal 6.02

    Get this. Marichal allowed the most hits (295) in the entire National League. Gibson allowed 198 hits. Gibson allowed almost 100 fewer hits than Marichal. The only edge that Marichal had on Gibson was in fewer walks. But Gibson more than made up for that with far more strikouts and far fewer hits allowed.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  23. #323
    BravesFan1984, can you post on my thread? You seem to get a lot of attention.

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike90 View Post
    BravesFan1984, can you post on my thread? You seem to get a lot of attention.
    Do you want THAT kind of attention?
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by highpockets View Post
    you are profoundly misinformed and should do more reading and less typing.
    Please adhere to what highpockets said. It's the smartest thing anyone has said to you on this site. You're factually and theoretically wrong 90% of the time. You have no grasp on this or almost any subject and choose to ignore anything at brings that fact to the forefront. More reading, less typing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

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