I'm just saying I think people are maybe looking at Pedro as a two-year wonder, a la Hal Newhouser, from 1999-00 when he was at his best and in the spotlight the most. And then after that he was "fragile" missing time in 2001 and 2003, then 2006. He was something special before 1999, Cy Young winner in 1997. He was robbed in 2002, more valuable than Tejada as well (but different team success).
99.5% of pitchers do that, miss some time over ten seasons. Pedro was consistently Top 10 in innings, and the BEST innings of starters.
Subjective, but did you have a solid idea of how good Albert Pujols was after 01-05? Was he fooling anyone? That's only five seasons, I'm saying 10.
Last edited by plask_stirlac; 10-13-2007 at 10:23 AM.
JM: Only did that for a couple of years and then we had a conspiracy so it kind of turned me sour. Our league's commissioner, Lew Ford(notes) at the time, was doing some shady things that ... I'd rather not talk about [laughs].
DB: Isn't he in Japan right now?
JM: I don't know where Lou is right now. He's probably fleeing the authorities [laughs].
Pedro ABSOLUTELY is in. sub 3.00 ERA, also, for his career. I had said "borderline" a couple months back, but when I took a look at his stats again, I have to say I changed my mind quickly. Easily in on the first ballot.
As for Mussina, I think part of what hurts him is that he has never stood out. He has been the hum-drum guy with consistent and not mind-numbing numbers. He'll get in eventually, but I think Schilling takes less time to get in than Mussina.
He's not going to challenge the 300 win milestone, but Pedro is an extremely high winning percentage pitcher. Any pitcher with 200 wins and a winning percentage even remotely approaching Pedro Martinez's has made the Hall Of Fame, and without much opposition or argument.
Joe Torre wanted Mike Mussina to start Game 4 of the first round of the playoffs. He was overruled by the Yankees' front office, and Mussina was relegated to long relief. That's not exactly a vote of confidence for a pitcher, especially one who some are touting for the Hall Of Fame!
Mussina didn't help his chances this year. The question is whether or not he hurt them.
On the one hand, he's at 250 wins and over 100 games over .500 for his career, with an ERA almost .80 below league.
On the other hand, he's never won 20, and he's never won the Cy Young Award.
He HAS won 19 games twice and 18 games 3 times; he's not like a guy with two 20 win seasons and nothing about 15 after that on the way to 250 wins. But it looks like he's never going to win 20, and one must wonder just how much of a mental block this will be in the eyes of the writers.
"I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."
NL President Ford Frick, 1947
Hi there. I am currently listening to the YanksJays home opener and there's talk that Mike Mussina is a lock for the Hall of Fame. I wont deny that he's been a winner his entire career, has an admirable winning percentage and an impressive win total, especially since many would argue that Glavine may be the last of the 300 game winners. All that aside, is this guy special?
He never won a Cy Young. He never won a World Series or pitched a special post-season game. He lead the league once in wins and once, in 1992, with an insane .738% win-loss percentage. He's never really been an ace, save for 9 years with Orioles, who with exception with a flirtation atop the AL East standings in the early 90s were never contenders.
He compares, statistically, to Jack Morris and if I had to choose between the two, El Moustachio gets my vote every single time.
Can anyone actually explain this?
Mussina is neither worse than Morris, nor a lock
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I guess I look at Morris in a couple ways. He was a 20 game winner more than once, arguably the most dominant pitcher of his era and pitched in 1991 one of the most memorable games and certainly game 7s in world series history.
I'm not a Mussina hater but I just sort of say, so what?!
I was actually listening to Jays broadcast and Jerry Howarth, a great baseball voice, said the same. Mussina is a lock.
Mussina has strong credentials and should, I believe, make the Hall. But he simply is not a lock. I see him in the Jim Bunning range of pitchers, and it took Bunning forever to get in.
On another note, while the Orioles were the best team in their division only once during the 90s, they certainly were contenders for a while there. 6 3rd place or better seasons and 3 2nd place or better seasons.
Do you think Mussina was great, though? To me, that's what the Hall is for. There have been certain benchmarks throughout the ages - 300 wins, 500 homers, 3,000 hits - that have guaranteed entry, but still, i think a guy should be great. For instance, i look at a guy like Don Sutton, who won 300 but was never great, in my estimation. On the other side, you have Pedro, who won't win 250 but was GREAT.
I say he is not a lock, but he is pretty close to the Cooperstown.
I agree that Jack Morris is definitely better than Moose, hands down, but his win-loss percentage is very impressive and for him to be a stellar pitcher at his age is amazing.
I'd say let him in, but probably not during his first year of eligibility.
He's not a lock by any means, but if he has a good season this year, he's definitely welcome in Cooperstown conversations, IMO.
what's funny is that they were saying on the broadcast this evening that were it not for Pettite's back spasms Mussina would not even have a spot in the rotation
I think you're right. To me he's like Jim Thome - good, consistent, but not great.
As a Jay fan, I look at Joe Carter, who for 9 years average 30 homers and 100 RBIs, won two world series and was only the second person in history to decide a world series with a home run. Cooperstown? I am afraid not.
Mussina is a shade behind three guys who should all get in based on stats-one who probably won't, especially with recent steroid or GH issues.
Those 3 are Kevin Brown, John Smoltz and Cut Schilling. Brown and Smoltz actually are among a group of just 5 pitchers for whom no eligible NON hall of famer tops BOTH in IP and ERA+. The others are Blylevin, Quisenberry and S.J. Wood. Bly should be in. Quiz and Wood both are close in my view. I could see Quiz in.
Mussina has slipped a little on them in ERA+ (122 or 123 now) but has 250 wins. With 3300+ IP and a 122 ERA+ there are very few non hall of famers who top him in both categories. I have him distinctly ahead of Steib, Guidry, Key, Saberhagen, Hershizer. Cicotte would be real close and might have been a HOFer in a different life. Really, Smoltz, Schilling and Brown are the only 3 who top him in all 3.