Mike Mussina

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Every century there are pitchers that are all time greats that does not mean because a player is below them that they great to. David Wells had a couple of Cy Young type seasons to that does not make him a HOFer. Now a days when you play 18-20 years it is not that hard to have a couple great seasons.

Except that Mussina is closer to the all time greats than he is to David Wells in terms of performance. And Wells played until he was 44. David Wells would be a stronger HoF candidate if he had other good seasons to go along his best seasons. That is what separates Mussina from Wells. It's not that hard to play 18-20 years? Their aren't too many pitchers that have 18-20 year careers and are solid-to-great year-in and year-out.

[Matthew C.]

I do think that a small hall might exclude Mussina.

Exactly. Technicaly, somebody could have as small of a hall as they wanted. I have heard a few people over the years support a first- tier only type of Hall - with only the best of the best of the best. This is fine for an individual's opinion-as long as they are consistant. Don't like Mike Mussina or Jeff Kent in your hall? Fine, but I had better not see Don Drysdale or Bobby Doerr either. Don't like John Smoltz or Jim Thome? Okay, but you better also exclude Don Sutton and Tony Perez. I just want to see consistancy. I am sure yo agree.

[SABR Matt]

Jeff Kent doesn't have any place even in a gigantic HOF. LOL

[Mike90]

Jeff Kent doesn't have any place even in a gigantic HOF. LOL

Huh? Is this your fan side talking, or do the stats say Kent should not be in the Hall?

[Bravesfan1984]

Except that Mussina is closer to the all time greats than he is to David Wells in terms of performance. And Wells played until he was 44. David Wells would be a stronger HoF candidate if he had other good seasons to go along his best seasons. That is what separates Mussina from Wells. It's not that hard to play 18-20 years? Their aren't too many pitchers that have 18-20 year careers and are solid-to-great year-in and year-out.

No he is not. Mussina has no cy youngs only one 20 win season. He is even close to someone like Greg Maddux. There have been a lot of pitchers that have had a lot of good to great years

Kenny Rogers
David Wells
Roy Halladay
Barry Zito
Curt Schilling
Pedro Martinez
Roger Clemons
Greg Maddux
Steve Carlton
Tom Glavine
Kevin Brown
Bert Blyleven
Jim Palmer

[SamtheBravesFan]

No he is not. Mussina has no cy youngs only one 20 win season. He is even close to someone like Greg Maddux.

He doesn't mean that in the literal sense. He means that Mike Mussina is closer to Greg Maddux than David Wells is. I agree with him.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

No he is not. Mussina has no cy youngs only one 20 win season. He is even close to someone like Greg Maddux.

What is your hang up with Cy Young Awards? You really think that's the best way to measure a pitcher's greatness? Often the best pitcher doesn't win the CYA. To classic cases are the AL in 1990 and 2005. Two vastly inferior pitchers won the CYA simply because they had lots of wins. Oh and Maddux only had two 20 win seasons in his 22 year career. I guess he's not that good either.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

No he is not. Mussina has no cy youngs only one 20 win season. He is even close to someone like Greg Maddux. There have been a lot of pitchers that have had a lot of good to great years

Kenny Rogers (good career not as good Mussina)
David Wells (Mussina will end up with substantially more wins)
Roy Halladay (possbility HoF career)
Barry Zito (already in decline, will Zito be a 20 game winner at age 39?)
Curt Schilling (possible HoF career)
Pedro Martinez (HoF career)
Roger Clemons (HoF career)
Greg Maddux (HoF career)
Steve Carlton (HoFer)
Tom Glavine (Hall of Fame career)
Kevin Brown (great peak short career because of injuries)
Bert Blyleven (HoF career)
Jim Palmer (HoFer)

That list is lot of pitchers? And they are not all conterporaries. Carlton, Blyleven, and Palmer are from previous baseball generations. And most of them had HoF caliber careers. So that's an argument for Mussina not against him.

[Bravesfan1984]

He doesn't mean that in the literal sense. He means that Mike Mussina is closer to Greg Maddux than David Wells is. I agree with him.

Curt Schilling is closer to Maddux then Wells. That does not mean he is a HOFer.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Curt Schilling is closer to Maddux then Wells. That does not mean he is a HOFer.

Well, considering his whole body of work, I think he is.

[White Knight]

Every century there are pitchers that are all time greats that does not mean because a player is below them that they great to. David Wells had a couple of Cy Young type seasons to that does not make him a HOFer. Now a days when you play 18-20 years it is not that hard to have a couple great seasons.

Wow, you totally dodged the Rickey henderson question.

[Bravesfan1984]

That list is lot of pitchers? And they are not all conterporaries. Carlton, Blyleven, and Palmer are from previous baseball generations. And most of them had HoF caliber careers. So that's an argument for Mussina not against him.

I can add more if you want that is just off the top of my head. Not everyone on this list who had a few great years are going to make the HOF.

[Mike90]

I can add more if you want that is just off the top of my head. Not everyone on this list who had a few great years are going to make the HOF.

Over half of the players you mentioned off the top of your head are either in the Hall or going be enshrined as soon as they're eligible. Your arguments make no sense.

[Cougar]

Wow, you totally dodged the Rickey henderson question.

He's good at what he does.

Your arguments make no sense.

Of course not; that wouldn't serve his purposes.

[Cougar]

Woo hoo! I learned to use the Multi-quote function.

[Bravesfan1984]

Wow, you totally dodged the Rickey henderson question.

What was the question?

[Mike90]

My point, Bravesfan, is this. Do you believe that Rickey Henderson is a HoFer? If you do then you are being inconsistent. Rickey never lead the league in BA, HR, and RBI. So how can you argue that Rickey is a HoFer? Just counting how many times a player led the league in certain stats is a POOR and FLAWED way to measure baseball greatness. Rickey Henderson is a HoF player. He was the deserved 1990 MVP, not Cecil Fielder. but I used the Henderson/Fielder MVP vote to illustrate a point. If we just focus on specific stats you can make any argument out of thin air. I can make an argument that makes Fielder look like the 1990 MVP. I purposely ignored specific stats that show a more broad understanding of their 1990 seasons just to make it look like Fielder was the true 1990 AL MVP. Fielder had more RBI in 1990 simply because Rickey was a leadoff hitter. Lead off hitters can't knock in 100 runs. It is basically impossible for them to do so. What I didn't mentioned was that Rickey had a much higher batting average and OBP. Though, Fielder led the AL in slugging, Rickey was second in slugging. Rickey stole 65 bases and was caught just 10 times. All those steals brought real value to the A's that isn't captured in OBP nor slugging. in 1990 Rickey was still a very good defensive outfielder. Fielder was a slow fat first baseman. If you look at the whole picture Rickey was easily the 1990 AL MVP.

BravesFan1984, these are the Rickey Henderson questions.

[Cowtipper]

Mussina is 187 strikeouts away from 3,000. Assuming he hangs on for two more years, he will no doubt get that. Would he be a Hall of Famer then? Let's also assume he wins ten games in those two seasons. He would have 290 wins, 3,000 strikeouts, and a 20 win season under his belt.

Pretty good credentials if you ask me.

[Mike90]

Mussina is 187 strikeouts away from 3,000. Assuming he hangs on for two more years, he will no doubt get that. Would he be a Hall of Famer then? Let's also assume he wins ten games in those two seasons. He would have 290 wins, 3,000 strikeouts, and a 20 win season under his belt.

Pretty good credentials if you ask me.

I don't see him not going 1st ballot with numbers like those, although I think he has already passed the tipping point in most voters' minds as a Hall of Famer.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Rats! Word has it that Mussina is seriously considering retirement. He'll let the Yankees by the end of the week.

[Cougar]

Could be just angling for a few extra bucks...

[henrich]

Woo hoo! I learned to use the Multi-quote function.

You are well past me on that one. Perhaps when I post 1200 more times.

[Mike90]

Rats! Word has it that Mussina is seriously considering retirement. He'll let the Yankees by the end of the week.

Could be just angling for a few extra bucks...

OMG I did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, and I hope he (that's Mussina, not Cougar or Honus Wagner Rules) goes for 300 wins.

[Bravesfan1984]

BravesFan1984, these are the Rickey Henderson questions.

No i do not. He only got in because he had 300 hits.

[jjpm74]

No i do not. He only got in because he had 300 hits.

You support candidates who had 300 hits but not 300 wins