View Poll Results: Is Mike Mussina a Hall of Famer?

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  • Yes

    120 83.33%
  • No

    24 16.67%
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Thread: Mike Mussina

  1. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by ipitch View Post
    I hear that Sandy Koufax has never even met his grandkids because he's too embarrassed to tell them that he was a HOF baseball player with a mere 165 wins!
    Awful example. 165 wins isn't close to 300. Sandy could not have gotten to 300 wins, so no reason to wait until 200, as that's not a milestone. Moose certainly could get to 300, no doubt about it. Why be a quitter when the milestone is in site?
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  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by bambambaseball View Post
    Huh? Hes 66th all time in innings pitched
    Over 18 seasons, sure, he's very consistent, but he's never thrown 250 in a season.
    I wouldn't call Jamie Moyer a high inning pitcher either.
    Last edited by dgarza; 11-20-2008 at 09:03 PM.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by SABR Matt View Post
    1) He's thrown more than 200 innings many many times.
    I wouldn't call 200 innings high innings. That's a low benchmark for "high innings," even in 2008. 34 pitchers reached that in 08.
    2) Who the crap cares about W%?
    People

    3) Are you actually using WARP3 to talk about a pitcher? I can't recall the last time someone bothered to do that.
    It's still a measure, obviously.

    4) ERA...UGH!!!!!
    We aren't talking comic strips.

    5) Look a little deeper...and maybe you'll understand what Mussina was thinking...he knows...and anyone reading the data carefully enough knows...that he was very lucky to have the numbers he had in 2008.
    Something you can't articulate? Can you? Or are you just going to quote Charlie Brown again?

    There's just 1 thing wrong with your post. You explained zilch. Nobody else on board got anything out of it. Vanity post.
    Last edited by dgarza; 11-20-2008 at 09:10 PM.

  4. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    165 wins isn't close to 300. Sandy could not have gotten to 300 wins, so no reason to wait until 200, as that's not a milestone. Moose certainly could get to 300, no doubt about it. Why be a quitter when the milestone is in site?
    Retiring isn't quitting. Maybe he doesn't care about milestones? 300 is nothing but a round number. Plus, 300 wins could easily take 3 more years.

    And, you obviously missed my point about Koufax. It had nothing to do with how far he was from 300 or 200.

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by STLCards2 View Post
    It was about 3 weeks ago when I claimed that WARP3 was from the "dark ages" of sabermetrics after somebody tried to make their whole case about a player using it. They claimed that it was not, and it was more from the "Bronze age."
    You memory is poor but BBFever does provide a search feature.

  6. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    Awful example. 165 wins isn't close to 300. Sandy could not have gotten to 300 wins, so no reason to wait until 200, as that's not a milestone. Moose certainly could get to 300, no doubt about it. Why be a quitter when the milestone is in site?
    Even worse example. Koufax retired at age 30 not because he wanted to, but because his arthritis was so bad. He couldn't keep pitching until he hit a milestone.

    I think after 17 seasons, and at the age of 39, leaving the majors hardly counts as "quitting". What do you want him to do, keep pitching until he can't comb his hair or until his arm falls off completely. If he decides he wants to retire, that's his choice. 300 win would certainly guarantee his place in the Hall, but it's his decision to live with.

    It was a damn fine career, and if he wants to leave now, hats off to him
    Religion: Yankeeist

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  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by RubeBaker View Post
    I know he won 19 in 1996, but he gave up a ton of runs that year.
    He admits that was an anomalous statistical quirk. It's sort of balanced out by 2000.

    I should be immune to it by now, but some of the inane, ignorant garbage I heard about his Hall chances today on ESPN made my head swim. My favorite was Jay Mariotti opining that since Blyleven and Morris had more wins than he did, he would have to wait at least until they went in.

    Yeah, he did.

    Don't quit your day job, Jay. Oh, wait...
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  8. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by STLCards2 View Post
    It was about 3 weeks ago when I claimed that WARP3 was from the "dark ages" of sabermetrics after somebody tried to make their whole case about a player using it. They claimed that it was not, and it was more from the "Bronze age."
    LOL

    The bottom line is the anything from BP is hilariously out of date compared to current thinking in sabermetrics...for some reason the guys in charge over there, many of whom are brilliant baseball people, have resisted updating their methodologies over time.

  9. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    I wouldn't call 200 innings high innings. That's a low benchmark for "high innings," even in 2008. 34 pitchers reached that in 08.

    People

    It's still a measure, obviously.


    We aren't talking comic strips.

    Something you can't articulate? Can you? Or are you just going to quote Charlie Brown again?

    There's just 1 thing wrong with your post. You explained zilch. Nobody else on board got anything out of it. Vanity post.
    I've already articulated the deeper points of Mussina's career...and not just once...in this thread and others...learn a tiny smidgen about DIPS theory and the problems with W% - especially on a single-season level, ERA, and WARP3. The day people stop blindly relying on ERA to evaluate pitchers is the day I throw a party.

  10. #630
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    Mussina's retirement is probably a good career move, as far as making the HOF is concerned. He was (is?) unlikely to win a Cy Young Award, and there seems to be something of a tendency by the BBWAA to favor guys who finish strong over guys that start fast, but fade. There can be no meaningful objection to Mussina's induction at this point, and there would be no precedent for his rejection.
    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

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  11. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    You memory is poor but BBFever does provide a search feature.
    Why search when a quick, efficient paraphrase will do!

    Seriously, sorry if I misrepresented what was acctualy said. I will be more careful next time.
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  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
    Mussina's retirement is probably a good career move, as far as making the HOF is concerned. He was (is?) unlikely to win a Cy Young Award, and there seems to be something of a tendency by the BBWAA to favor guys who finish strong over guys that start fast, but fade. There can be no meaningful objection to Mussina's induction at this point, and there would be no precedent for his rejection.
    Listening to Mike Francesa yesterday and the writers he had on, there seemed to be an overwhelming consensus the he doesn't belong, that they won't be voting for him and that he is an even weaker candidate than Blyleven who they also don't vote for. The reasons? No Cy Youngs, no World Series rings. It's nice to know that the people who actually vote in the players election are putting absolutely no thought into how dominant he was and for how long. Their reasoning was also comparing Mussina to Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson.

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    Listening to Mike Francesa yesterday and the writers he had on, there seemed to be an overwhelming consensus the he doesn't belong, that they won't be voting for him and that he is an even weaker candidate than Blyleven who they also don't vote for. The reasons? No Cy Youngs, no World Series rings. It's nice to know that the people who actually vote in the players election are putting absolutely no thought into how dominant he was and for how long. Their reasoning was also comparing Mussina to Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson.
    They may not be voting for Blyleven but over 60% did the last election and he's been increasing very nicely the last few years. His election is pretty much an eventual given. Those writers are in the minority. Ignore them.
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  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    They may not be voting for Blyleven but over 60% did the last election and he's been increasing very nicely the last few years. His election is pretty much an eventual given. Those writers are in the minority. Ignore them.
    Once Blyleven is in (and it will be soon), there's virtually no sensible argument that can keep Mussina out. He won't be in first ballot (especially against Maddux) or maybe even the first five years but he'll get there. The only question IMO is Orioles cap or Yankees cap?

    As a fan though, I do feel robbed of seeing his pursuit of 3000 Ks/300 wins because he's clearly not done and it would have been fun. But it's his decision.

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by lyrical View Post
    Once Blyleven is in (and it will be soon), there's virtually no sensible argument that can keep Mussina out. He won't be in first ballot (especially against Maddux) or maybe even the first five years but he'll get there. The only question IMO is Orioles cap or Yankees cap?

    As a fan though, I do feel robbed of seeing his pursuit of 3000 Ks/300 wins because he's clearly not done and it would have been fun. But it's his decision.
    Mussina's best years were with Baltimore. He should go in with an Orioles cap.
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  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by lyrical View Post
    Once Blyleven is in (and it will be soon), there's virtually no sensible argument that can keep Mussina out. He won't be in first ballot (especially against Maddux) or maybe even the first five years but he'll get there. The only question IMO is Orioles cap or Yankees cap?

    As a fan though, I do feel robbed of seeing his pursuit of 3000 Ks/300 wins because he's clearly not done and it would have been fun. But it's his decision.
    Although he set himself a little ahead with longevity, I think that Mussina is dead even with Schilling, Smoltz and Kevin Brown who are next behind Blylevin, and are all HOF players (except for the PED's in Brown's case).

  17. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett View Post
    Although he set himself a little ahead with longevity, I think that Mussina is dead even with Schilling, Smoltz and Kevin Brown who are next behind Blylevin, and are all HOF players (except for the PED's in Brown's case).
    That's why I wanted him to wait until he gets to 300. Lot's of people still think that loudmouth Schilling is better, and he's not. Neither is Glavine.
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  18. #638
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    According to Sports Illustrated, ""Moose" became the first healthy pitcher to leave on his own accord following a 20-win season in more than a century."

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....ap/index.html
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  19. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
    Mussina's retirement is probably a good career move, as far as making the HOF is concerned. He was (is?) unlikely to win a Cy Young Award, and there seems to be something of a tendency by the BBWAA to favor guys who finish strong over guys that start fast, but fade. There can be no meaningful objection to Mussina's induction at this point, and there would be no precedent for his rejection.
    This is spot on. The thing is, at age 40+ and seeing the general decline in his career over the past 5 years, it's far from a given that he would get those 30 wins for 300. However, in the mind of the average voter, it will be assumed that he could've easily hit the milestone if he'd kept on going. Like Puckett and 3000 hits. Mussina's much better off quitting now and being an assumed 300-game winner than to dribble out his career like Early Wynn and limp past the milestone. Or worse, do like McGriff and fail to reach the milestone after it was assumed he was a lock.

    At the same time, he will be commended and lauded for walking away "at the top" or some such, to be a Family Guy, and giving up that $11,000,000 salary. (Hopefully, he can squeak by on the $144,533,619 he was paid in his career.)
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  20. #640
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    All pitchers 3250+ IP, 1981-2008
    Code:
      Cnt Player            OPS+ ERA+  W    IP   From  To
    +----+-----------------+----+----+---+------+----+----+
        1 Roger Clemens       68  143 354 4916.2 1984 2007 
        2 Randy Johnson       70  137 295 4039.1 1988 2008 
        3 Greg Maddux         75  132 355 5008.1 1986 2008 
        4 John Smoltz         75  127 210 3395   1988 2008 
        5 Curt Schilling      76  127 216 3261   1988 2007 
        6 Kevin Brown         78  127 211 3256.1 1986 2005 
        7 Mike Mussina        81  122 270 3562.2 1991 2008 
        8 Tom Glavine         88  118 305 4413.1 1987 2008 
        9 David Wells         93  108 239 3439   1987 2007 
       10 Jamie Moyer         96  106 246 3746.2 1986 2008 
       11 Kenny Rogers        96  108 219 3302.2 1989 2008
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

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