Mike Mussina

[Cougar]

How about the Hall of Buffoons who retire with 270 wins when they still have lots of life left?

He didn't have all that much left. I have YES and watched a bunch of his games that year...he was doing it with mirrors and abundant run support.

That takes skill, of course, but luck too, and that varies. You'll recall, his next-to-last season was a train wreck.

[Captain Cold Nose]

How about the Hall of Buffoons who retire with 270 wins when they still have lots of life left?

One man's vitriol goes no further than the one man . . .

[PVNICK]

now now he had gone 12-9 4.59 98 ERA+, 13-8 4.41 96 ERA+, 15-7 3.51 129 ERA+, 11-10 5.15 88 ERA+ from 2004-2007 before the final season 20-9 .690 132 ERA+. I'm pretty sure at the end of '07 the consensus was he was done and may not make the rotation. You could twist the numbers to say he was under 100 ERA + in 3 of the 4 seasons before 2008 or was @ 130 in two of his last three seasons. My recollection was he had his one last hurrah and woudl revert to the 2004-07 level or worst, but that is just one man's guess.

[J W]

The guy was keen on statistics and probably understood "regression to the mean". He didn't have the skills he used to. Plus, there is more to life than baseball to Mike. What's wrong with retiring on a high note?

[Biofury]

Moose never struck me as a HOF player, I have him grouped with Schilling, Brown, Morris, etc. The only pitchers from the same era I see as HOF worthy are Maddux, Johnson, Martinez, Clemens, Glavine and Rivera.

[PVNICK]

Moose never struck me as a HOF player, I have him grouped with Schilling, Brown, Morris, etc. The only pitchers from the same era I see as HOF worthy are Maddux, Johnson, Martinez, Clemens, Glavine and Rivera.

Fair grouping, albeit tough HOF standard.

[Biofury]

Fair grouping, albeit tough HOF standard.

Yea, I wouldn't mind if the induction requirement was lifted to 80%. This would eliminate many of the players already there who I think are near misses instead. The reverse would be true to, to a smaller degree though and effect less of the stronger members. Also, Im not too fond of the vast majority of VC inductees.

[Ducati12]

Yea, I wouldn't mind if the induction requirement was lifted to 80%. This would eliminate many of the players already there who I think are near misses instead. The reverse would be true to, to a smaller degree though and effect less of the stronger members. Also, Im not too fond of the vast majority of VC inductees.

Wow that is some high standards. No Smoltz and Hoffman?

[Biofury]

Hoffman is not Rivera, so no, and he only has that '98 WS appearance to supplement those 601 saves, and they lost to Rivera's team. Hey, double negative there. I don't weigh All-star selections high anymore. Way too many players selected nowadays and each team must be represented. Do you really need that many people on the bench? The old way was much better, appearance due to having the best performance at the respective position and/or being a super popular player.
About the saves, they're just saves. Yes, there is a ton of them, a save is a save and I cannot save Hoffman for that alone. What else does he have or has done? How many saves would the Big Unit, Maddux or Clemens have accumulated if they spent their entire careers in the pen? Im sure alot more than 601. Closers are certainly a major part of the game, though I think much of it has to due with contractual reasons. I think if managers were not forced to go to their closers in save opportunity situations, many of them may choose to leave the starter in to complete the game. Anyways, to me, the closer and relievers will always be living in the shadows of the premium starters.

Smoltz is a can of worms for me; as a starter, no. As a closer, definitely not. Combined however is the question and I do not have an answer right now. I'm more inclined to say no than yes. Smoltz just doesn't wow me but I think he is a better candidate than Hoffman. I place him between the two groups i mentioned earlier.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Moose never struck me as a HOF player, I have him grouped with Schilling, Brown, Morris, etc. The only pitchers from the same era I see as HOF worthy are Maddux, Johnson, Martinez, Clemens, Glavine and Rivera.

I think Mussina was as good as Glavine.

[Freakshow]

Most seasons 5+ pitching WAR, retired pitchers debuting 1981+

Rk                   Yrs From   To   Age
1      Roger Clemens  14 1986 2005 23-42
2      Randy Johnson  10 1993 2004 29-40
3        Greg Maddux  10 1988 2000 22-34
4     Pedro Martinez   7 1997 2005 25-33
5       Mike Mussina   7 1992 2003 23-34
6        Kevin Brown   6 1996 2003 31-38
7     Curt Schilling   6 1992 2004 25-37
8         David Cone   5 1988 1997 25-34
9      Mark Langston   5 1987 1993 26-32
10   Bret Saberhagen   5 1985 1994 21-30
11      Kevin Appier   4 1992 1997 24-29
12       Tom Glavine   4 1991 1998 25-32
13       Frank Viola   4 1987 1992 27-32
14    Orel Hershiser   4 1985 1989 26-30

[GiambiJuice]

I think Mussina was as good as Glavine.

I agree. Glavine has the 300 wins and the Cy Young awards (1991 was fine, but he didn't deserve it in 1998 - Brown and Maddux were both more deserving), but Mussina was a better pitcher overall. I'll call ERA+ a wash since Glavine pitched a lot more innings, but Mussina crushes him with stats like WHIP, k/BB ratio, and WAR. I give Glavine credit for the extra longevity and would say they are about even with all things considered, but Mussina was the "better" pitcher, if that makes sense.

[PVNICK]

Mussina really was on the short list for best pitcher in the AL during his time with Baltimore. From 1992-1999 he went 132-61 .683 3.55 ERA 130 ERA+ in 1684 IP or seasonally 16-8 211 IP. Stretching it to 2003 with the NYY and he is 195-105 .650 3.55 128 ERA+ 2581 IP or seasonally 16-9 215 IP. He gets hurt by not having a wow season, by having a string of 18 or 19 win seasons and Baltimore not goign further than they did in the post-season.

[GiambiJuice]

Mussina really was on the short list for best pitcher in the AL during his time with Baltimore. From 1992-1999 he went 132-61 .683 3.55 ERA 130 ERA+ in 1684 IP or seasonally 16-8 211 IP. Stretching it to 2003 with the NYY and he is 195-105 .650 3.55 128 ERA+ 2581 IP or seasonally 16-9 215 IP. He gets hurt by not having a wow season, by having a string of 18 or 19 win seasons and Baltimore not goign further than they did in the post-season.

He came up just short in the wins department a couple of times. He would've won 20 games in '94 AND '95 if not for the strike. Oh and he also came one out shy of a perfect game.

[NJRob65]

I think Mussina is better than Glavine.