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Thread: Ruth Is The Greatest Baseball Player Ever!!

  1. #1

    Ruth Is The Greatest Baseball Player Ever!!

    No-One played or has played since Better all-around than Babe Ruth.
    If he were a basketball player he would be the combination of M.J./ Bird/ Wilt all-into-one...
    If he were a golfer he would be Palmer/Tiger Woods/Jack all-into-one..


    Read THIS before you Post

  2. #2
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    In football he would be Rice/Manning/Marino.
    People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. -Rogers Hornsby

  3. #3
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    I don't think anyone here would argue with you. Anyone who has a clue what they're talking about, anyways.

    I'm Red Sox fan by the way..I lost a bet so i'm displaying the Yankee cap as my avatar for a week.
    The Cuervo Gold, the fine Columbian, make tonight a wonderful thing.

  4. #4
    Yeah maybe no one in the Yankees forum would....but you would be surprised how many people dont even have Babe Ruth in their top ten players all-time. Alot of people i have talked to who are avid baseball fans who are about my age (24)...think Babe is over-rated....and my comeback is always this.........
    HE CALLED HIS OWN SHOT IN THE WORLD SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The experts say hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in sports, and this guy calls his own shot...a homerun exactly where he pointed.....

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggestYankeeFan_in_Memphis
    Yeah maybe no one in the Yankees forum would....but you would be surprised how many people dont even have Babe Ruth in their top ten players all-time. Alot of people i have talked to who are avid baseball fans who are about my age (24)...think Babe is over-rated....and my comeback is always this.........
    HE CALLED HIS OWN SHOT IN THE WORLD SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The experts say hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in sports, and this guy calls his own shot...a homerun exactly where he pointed.....
    If you go and read the rankings around here, where informed fans hang out, you'll find Ruth at the top of 99% of the lists.

    As for the called shot?

    I'm inclined, from what I've read and researched over the years, to believe that Ruth didn't indicate he was going to hit a home run and his reaction to it indicates to me that his attitude was, "if that's what you want to believe I did, then go right ahead and believe it."
    The Cuervo Gold, the fine Columbian, make tonight a wonderful thing.

  6. #6
    I can't think of anyone, knowledgeable or just a casual fan, who doesn't put Babe Ruth in their top 10 players all time.

    As an all around player, no question Ruth is the greatest of all time - the combination of hitting and pitching is outstanding. However, strictly as a positional player, I sometimes put Willie Mays ahead of Ruth as the greatest positional player of all time. Ruth could rake, but Willie could do it all well, and he did it in a much more talented league than Ruth. In case anyone is interested, here are my top 10 positional players as of today (the list is always in flux):

    1) Willie Mays
    2) Babe Ruth
    3) Ty Cobb
    4) Ted Williams
    5) Hank Aaron
    6) Honus Wagner
    7) Barry Bonds (and this is taking into account the steroids)
    8) Lou Gehrig
    9) Mickey Mantle
    10) Stan Musial

    Strictly from a hitting standpoint, I have Ruth at no. 1, but I can see very good arguments for Ted Williams being the greatest hitter ever. Most people don't realize that Williams lost almost 5 seasons of his prime to military service. Give him those 5 seasons, and his career numbers all around would be off the charts.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX
    I can't think of anyone, knowledgeable or just a casual fan, who doesn't put Babe Ruth in their top 10 players all time.

    As an all around player, no question Ruth is the greatest of all time - the combination of hitting and pitching is outstanding. However, strictly as a positional player, I sometimes put Willie Mays ahead of Ruth as the greatest positional player of all time. Ruth could rake, but Willie could do it all well, and he did it in a much more talented league than Ruth. In case anyone is interested, here are my top 10 positional players as of today (the list is always in flux):

    1) Willie Mays
    2) Babe Ruth
    3) Ty Cobb
    4) Ted Williams
    5) Hank Aaron
    6) Honus Wagner
    7) Barry Bonds (and this is taking into account the steroids)
    8) Lou Gehrig
    9) Mickey Mantle
    10) Stan Musial

    Strictly from a hitting standpoint, I have Ruth at no. 1, but I can see very good arguments for Ted Williams being the greatest hitter ever. Most people don't realize that Williams lost almost 5 seasons of his prime to military service. Give him those 5 seasons, and his career numbers all around would be off the charts.

    what about all the at-bats Ruth lost being a pitcher? imagine all the extra-base hits he could've had if he was an outfielder?

  8. #8
    You know people are 50/50 about ruth calling his shot.....there is more proof he did it, than proof he didn't do it..... Sounds like the cubs, trying dis-credit the greatest baseball player to walk this planet

  9. #9
    His atitude was "what's up now cub fans?......Bow Down"

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by blackout805
    what about all the at-bats Ruth lost being a pitcher? imagine all the extra-base hits he could've had if he was an outfielder?
    That's certainly true, though I wouldn't expect prolific homerun totals during those years since it was the deadball era. Though he would probably have a lot more doubles and even triples.

    Still, I think there are three players who epitomize what the perfect ballplayer is (in terms of being a positional player): Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, and Barry Bonds (with Hank Aaron and Honus Wagner not too far behind). Now Bonds drops out of the discussion because of the steroids. Cobb gets docked a little because of his era. That leaves Mays. Mays could do everything you could ever ask for from a positional player. Ruth could hit, better than anyone, but Mays' overall game closes the gap, IMO. The final consideration is the era. Mays played in one of the most talented eras ever, and one that heavily favored pitching over offense. Ruth played in a less talented era, in a league that heavily favored offense and was heavily water-down from segregation and the limits of scouting at the time (i.e. many talented players west of the Mississippi were not being discovered).

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX
    That's certainly true, though I wouldn't expect prolific homerun totals during those years since it was the deadball era. Though he would probably have a lot more doubles and even triples.

    Still, I think there are three players who epitomize what the perfect ballplayer is (in terms of being a positional player): Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, and Barry Bonds (with Hank Aaron and Honus Wagner not too far behind). Now Bonds drops out of the discussion because of the steroids. Cobb gets docked a little because of his era. That leaves Mays. Mays could do everything you could ever ask for from a positional player. Ruth could hit, better than anyone, but Mays' overall game closes the gap, IMO. The final consideration is the era. Mays played in one of the most talented eras ever, and one that heavily favored pitching over offense. Ruth played in a less talented era, in a league that heavily favored offense and was heavily water-down from segregation and the limits of scouting at the time (i.e. many talented players west of the Mississippi were not being discovered).
    DoubleX:

    As to Ruth and the deadball era, if he had started out
    as an outfielder, might he not have started slugging
    homers in, say, 1915, instead of 1918 and 1919, thus
    hastening the end of the deadball era?

    Let me strongly concur in what you say in re Willie
    Mays. His equal has never stepped on a baseball
    field.

    Brownie31

  12. #12
    i just started to read the new babe ruth book "The Big Bam: The Life and Times of Babe Ruth" by Leigh Monteville. reads well so far. the publishing world, i guess, is trying to capitalize on the bonds passing ruth moment and the whole "ruth swatted a bunch of home runs without the benefit of steroids" talk. so a great time for a new ruth biography.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Brownie31
    DoubleX:

    As to Ruth and the deadball era, if he had started out
    as an outfielder, might he not have started slugging
    homers in, say, 1915, instead of 1918 and 1919, thus
    hastening the end of the deadball era?

    Let me strongly concur in what you say in re Willie
    Mays. His equal has never stepped on a baseball
    field.

    Brownie31
    He would have hit homeruns in the deadball era, but not anything like he did in the 20s. There is a reason the deadball era is called the deadball era; the ball was dead. A different ball was used in the 1910s then was used in the 1920s. It wasn't like Ruth suddenly discovered the homerun and everyone else followed, it had a lot to do with a new livelier a ball. Maybe Ruth would have hit 20-25 a year in the deadball era, maybe even get above 30 in a year or two, which would still be records, but he would not be hitting 40+, and certainly not over 50. Ruth's 54 in 1920 coincided with the advent of the livelier ball.

    Additionally, the pitching rules changed after the 1919 season and several prevalent pitches, such as the splitter, became illegal. Also, the league started using new balls more frequently in games, instead of recycling balls that had been used and thus dirtied and scuffed up. In all, 1920 marked a huge change in the makeup of the game that heavily swung the pendulum away from pitching and towards offense and power. Ruth is perhaps the best example of the right person being in the right place at the right time (especially when you consider the Black Sox scandal).

  14. #14
    My understanding of the "Called Shot" was that Ruth himself gave conflicting accounts of why he gestured (some sources theorize that the dugout and/or pitcher Charlie Root were the intended targets; others discuss the number of strikes on Ruth as accounting for the fingers in the air), and it wasn't until later that Ruth seemed to go along with the media on the homerun thing.

    Those who supported the idea at the time seem to me to be individuals who might gain from the publicity of it being true.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX
    He would have hit homeruns in the deadball era, but not anything like he did in the 20s. There is a reason the deadball era is called the deadball era; the ball was dead. A different ball was used in the 1910s then was used in the 1920s. It wasn't like Ruth suddenly discovered the homerun and everyone else followed, it had a lot to do with a new livelier a ball. Maybe Ruth would have hit 20-25 a year in the deadball era, maybe even get above 30 in a year or two, which would still be records, but he would not be hitting 40+, and certainly not over 50. Ruth's 54 in 1920 coincided with the advent of the livelier ball.

    Additionally, the pitching rules changed after the 1919 season and several prevalent pitches, such as the splitter, became illegal. Also, the league started using new balls more frequently in games, instead of recycling balls that had been used and thus dirtied and scuffed up. In all, 1920 marked a huge change in the makeup of the game that heavily swung the pendulum away from pitching and towards offense and power. Ruth is perhaps the best example of the right person being in the right place at the right time (especially when you consider the Black Sox scandal).
    DoubleX:

    What about Ruth's 29 in 1919? Was this not in the
    deadball era? Is it not possible that he could have
    hit 20 plus before 1919?

    Cravath of the Phillies hit 24 in 1915.

    You are absolutely correct as to Ruth's being in
    right place at the right time.

    Brownie31

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Brownie31
    DoubleX:

    What about Ruth's 29 in 1919? Was this not in the
    deadball era? Is it not possible that he could have
    hit 20 plus before 1919?

    Cravath of the Phillies hit 24 in 1915.

    You are absolutely correct as to Ruth's being in
    right place at the right time.

    Brownie31
    I think it's very possible he could have hit 20+ before 1919 if he was a full time OFer. As I said in my previous post, I think topping 30 was certainly within the realm of possibility for Ruth during the deadball era, but I think 40 would probably be pushing it, and 50 extremely unlikely.

    Like I said, I think Ruth was the right man in the right place at the right time:

    Right Man because he had a different mentality then the existing norm - it was ok in his mind to swing for the fences and go for the big hit instead of playing small ball.

    Right Place because his monstrous feats came in New York and propelled the Yankees to the juggernaut they are today.

    Right Time because the equipment and rules changed in such a way that it perfectly complimented his game and enhanced it (at least superficially).


    I actually just started another thread on this in the History forum to get some other perspectives as well. So check it out Brownie if you want to see what other people are thinking about Ruth during the Deadball Era.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by runningshoes53
    If you go and read the rankings around here, where informed fans hang out, you'll find Ruth at the top of 99% of the lists.

    As for the called shot?

    I'm inclined, from what I've read and researched over the years, to believe that Ruth didn't indicate he was going to hit a home run and his reaction to it indicates to me that his attitude was, "if that's what you want to believe I did, then go right ahead and believe it."
    I posted a long article on this subject on this board. Can't locate it right now but this is what I recall. I've done all kinds of research on this event and also taped Ruth's actual at bat that was shown on the FOX TV network in the 1990s. The tape was transferred from footage taken from a 16MM home movie camera by a fan last name of Kandel.

    You can see Ruth gesturing and pointing at the Cub bench after the first strike. dagger like thrusting motions, clearly angered by the Cubs taunting him. He raises one finger to acknowledge strike one.

    Next pitch called a ball, inside.

    Next pitch called a ball, outside.

    The second called strike, count now 2-2. Now the crowd and the Cubs really let him hears it. Cub pitcher Guy Bush his chief tormentor is so far off the bench screaming at Ruth that the ump orders him to get off the field, get back to the dugout Ruth now raises two fingers to acknowledge strike two. Again you see him yelling and making hard thusting gestures at the Cub bench.

    Now according to Cub catcher Gabby Hartnett Ruth yells to the Cub bench, "It only takes one to hit it."


    Cub pitcher Charlie Root and Ruth exchange words. According to on deck Gehrig Ruth yells, " I'm going to knock the next pitch down your Goddamned throat."

    Then it happens, a slow curve low and away, Ruth its it almost out of the park, dead center. The ball strikes a ticket booth on the corner of the block

    Some say he did not point, some say he did. Some Cubs said he did point but he was jawing and pointing at the pitcher Root. The video is taken at an angle that makes it difficult to see if he is pointing just before he hits it.

    He may not have pointed and he may not have predicted a home run but what he did was spectacular. The Cubs were calling him, fat, washed up he answered them by acknowledging strike one and strike two and than said he had one left. Takes a lot of balls to shoot off your mouth, two strikes down.

    More before that at bat. In the very first inning as Ruth stood on deck the Cub bench was riding him. He turned to the bench, grinned and made pointing gestures at the right field bleachers. In that at bat he hit a 3 run home run into the right field bleachers. This article appeared in the N.Y.Herald Tribune written by Richards Vidmer. Here it is word for word.

    " He paused to jest with the raging Cubs pointed to the right field bleachers and grinned."

    Two home runs and in one other at bat he pinned Cub RF Kiki Cuyler against the wall in deep right center to pull in his long drive, just missing another home run.

    Pointed, called makes little difference, they had him two strikes in the hole and he sent them scurrying back into the dugout. The point is they thought they had him just about finished, he showed he still had it.

    It's not wise to tease the big guy.Willie Sherdel found that out in the Yank/ Cards World Series years earlier. Ruth did not know the meaning of the word pressure, always at his best on the big stage.
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 05-03-2006 at 08:15 PM.

  18. #18
    Assuming he did make the starting line up as a position player, playing every day he could have hit another 80 to 100 home runs over the years 1914-1917. I use those years because he was strictly a pitcher in those years. What also has to be considered is not only that he had a low number of at bats in those seasons but that he was coming to the plate every 4th or 5th day. Not the best for keeping his timing sharp.

    He also hit some long drives hitting the dead ball.

    August 10,1917 into the centerfield bleachers at Fenway. At that time the bleacher marker was 488 feet.

    July 1916 he hit one in St. Louis that cleared the street ( Grand Avenue) and landed on the far sidewalk.

    These were some shots before the live ball and before beat up scuffed up balls were left in the game as long as the cover was still intact. In some games only 3 or 4 balls were used the entire game. Fans were obliged to return fair or foul balls that were hit into the seats. In 1916 six fans at the Polo Grounds were arrested and booked for failing to return balls they chased down in the bleachers. Charges were dropped at the trial.

    1916 he hit one that cleared the roof at the Polo Grounds.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3
    1916 he hit one that cleared the roof at the Polo Grounds.
    Centerfield or down the lines? That makes a big difference at the Polo Grounds.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX
    Centerfield or down the lines? That makes a big difference at the Polo Grounds.
    There was no roof in center field at the Polo Grounds. The home run was hit to right. According to the N.Y.Times the only time the roof was reached before Ruth was by Joe Jackson who hit one on the roof. Ruth's drive cleared the roof.

  21. #21
    ShoelessJoe....what a shame he isn't in the hall of fame....they "say" he threw the game, if that's true then why did he have such awesome numbers in the series.. i mean wasn't his average like .481 for the series?...... it's more of shame that shoeless joe isn't in the hall of fame than Pete... All i know is if those two guys dont make the hall of fame then Barry Bonds shouldn't either....... "Unknowingly took steroids"..... thats up there with ....."i did not inhale"..........what a crock

  22. #22
    Oh my God..... look at the all time yankee vote off....
    Ruth isn't even in the top five yankees...........what a travesty..... If this is what the youth feels... that ruth isn't deserving of being listed in the top 5 greatest YANKEES OF ALL TIME (MUCH LESS THE GREATEST BASEBALL PLAYER), then what a sad day and future for baseball

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggestYankeeFan_in_Memphis
    HE CALLED HIS OWN SHOT IN THE WORLD SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The experts say hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in sports, and this guy calls his own shot...a homerun exactly where he pointed.....
    It's important to note that while he may not have actually called his shot, his intentions were well known.

    A few things about that series. It was really Gehrig would outshined Ruth, but like he so often did, Babe found a way to overshadow Gehrig with his larger than life showmanship and flair for the dramatic.

    Whether you're aware of them or not, I'll paraphrase some key details about the issues of the series, from Creamer.

    --- He was twice out of the lineup for extended periods of time during '32. In the middle of July he either tore or badly strained his right hamstring chasing after a fly ball. He was in the hospital for a few days and missed just over two weeks of the season.

    In September, he had a sharp pain along his right side. He continued to play, but the pain got worse. He thought he had appendicitis. Not clear what it was, but there was no operation and he was kept in bed for several days with a fever. Ten days before the World Series he was back in uniform and felt weaker than ever.

    He took BP against a young pitcher, and couldn't hit the ball into the stands. His quote, "I'm so weak I don't think I could break a pane of glass, but I'll be okay in a few days. They had me packed so deep in ice I haven't thawed out yet."

    It was doubtful that he would even be able to play in that '32 World Series. In five games before the series, he was 3-16 without a homer. He found a way though, and for game one, he was the starting right fielder.

    --- Mark Koenig was with the Yankees during '32, and was sent down to the minors. The Cubs picked him up late in the year, and Koenig played 33 games for them down the stretch. He fielded great at SS and hit .353 in those 33 games, helping the Cubs to win the pennant.

    So when the Cubs were deciding to divide up their World Series pot, they voted to only give Koenig a half share. Other things of note: Rogers Hornsby was fired as Cubs manager about 2/3 through the season and received nothing. Frank Demaree, a young outfielder, who only played 23 games for the Cubs that year, but played center and batted fifth in 2 of the World Series games, including hitting a homer, was given a quarter share.

    This is what initially caused the bad blood. Ruth was at the forefront, and was followed by other Yankees who were very vocal about their displeasure of Koenig only receiving half share. They called the Cubs cheapskates, the Cubs fired back, some more stuff was said, and the Cubs fired back directly at Ruth, calling him old, fat, washed up, and of course, the old stand by insult for him, "******."

    --- The insults were flying heavily as the Yanks won the first 2 games in NY. The series then went to Chicago for game three. When Babe arrived with Claire at the train station, thousands of fans were crammed around them. Nothing unusual. Babe fought his way through and got to a cab. Escorted by motorcycle cops, and eventually ending up at the hotel, Babe and Claire were entering the hotel, when a woman spit on them. It is rumored that Babe was so upset by this, that he told Claire that night , "I'm going to hit 'em where it hurts most."

    --- So we come to the game and the jockeying is worse than ever. As Creamer writes, "It is an argument over nothing, and the fact that Ruth did not point to center field before his home run does not diminish in the least what he did. He did challenge the Cubs before 50,000 people, did indicate that he was going to hit a home run and did hit a home run. What more could you ask?"

    --- Later on, Ruth told Chicago sportswriter John Carmichael, "I didn't exactly point to any spot. All I wanted to do was give that thing a ride out of the park, anywhere. I used to pop off a lot about hitting homers, but mostly among the Yankees. Combs and Lazzeri and Fletcher used to yell, 'Come on, Babe, hit one.' So I'd come back, 'Okay you bums. I'll hit one!' Sometimes I did. Sometimes I didn't. Hell, it was fun."

    --- After his initial comments about Koenig, Babe complained that the Chicago press had brought the fans down on him with stories about the bench jockeying. "They wrote about me riding the Cubs for being tight and about me calling them cheapskates," he said. "Well didn't you?" he was asked. "Well, weren't they?" he answered with irrefutable logic. Then he grinned and said, "Jesus, I wish I had known they only voted that kid Demaree a quarter share. Would I have burned them on that one."

    --- Babe's first AB came with men on first and second and nobody out. Root threw a pitch outside for ball one, another one inside for ball two. Then he threw a fastball on the outside corner, and Babe hit a 3 run homer into the right field stands. The Yanks were up 3-0.

    --- Gehrig hit a homer in the third with the bases empty to make it 4-0, and Ruth followed by hitting a towering drive which was caught right at the right centerfield fence.

    --- The Cubs rallied in the bottom of the fourth inning, and the fourth of their runs especially delighted the crowd, since it came when Babe missed a shoestring catch. The razzing only got worse from there. A lemon was thrown at him in the on deck circle, as he waited to bat in the top of the fifth. Wasn't that big of a deal. In pregame, many lemons were thrown in his direction. He laughed and threw them back into the stands, in a good mood. Him and Gehrig put on a display in batting practice that outdid what they had done 5 years earlier in Pittsburgh. Babe hit nine balls into the stands, and Gehrig seven. After he was done hitting, Babe yelled to the Cub bench , "I'd play for half my salary if I could hit in the dump all the time." Gomez commented, "With that wind, I could hit a home run today."

    --- As the game had just started, the Cubs' trainer yelled to Babe , "If I had you, I'd hitch you to a wagon, you potbelly." Ruth commented after the game, "I didn't mind no ballplayers yelling at me, but the trainer cutting in-that made me sore." Back to the fifth inning, the yelling and booing got louder and louder as he stepped in to face Root for the third time with a grin on his face. Shoeless already covered what happened during the AB.

    Here are some shots from that video you mention Joe.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 05-05-2006 at 04:22 PM.
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

  24. #24
    In the very next game of that 1932 World Series, Ruth's chief tormentor Guy Bush was the starting pitcher for the Cubs. First inning, first at bat Bush hits Ruth on the arm.

    This at bat was shown in that Ken Burns special. As Ruth trots to first, he makes flicking motions where he was hit on the arm, as one would do to brush away an insect. He yells to Bush, ' Hey, lop ears, was that your fast ball." In reality Ruth was hit very hard, his forearm was bruised and swelled up.

    I know some are aware of this but for those who are not. Guy Bush and Ruth meet again in 1935, Bush pitching for Pittsburgh and Ruth with the Boston Braves. Bush tells of how he almost shows pity for Ruth. He's old, sick with a cold, limping a bit but says he will show no mercy, not from me. To get to the point Ruth hit his third home run of that game, his last number 714. The ball is hit where no ball have ever been hit up to that time, over the roof at Forbes Field.
    Bush tips his cap as Ruth rounds third and says to himself, 'I've seen everything now Babe. He hit that ball over the triple deck, it was the longest cockeyed ball I ever saw in my life."

    Limping badly rounding the bases he did not return to the Braves bench but sat down with the Pirates so he would have a shorter walk to his outfield position at the end of the inning.

    Put him on center stage and there was never a performer like him. You got your moneys worth when you paid to see the Big Guy.
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 05-06-2006 at 11:08 AM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan_1895-1948
    Here are some shots from that video you mention Joe.
    Have you seen the actual video Randy. What you show in those pics is him pointing, gesturing at the Cub bench. When you see the video, you can tell he is really angry. Those thrusting gestures were very animated, sharp, dagger like. The Cubs were really riding him. It's not wise to tease the Babe.

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