Rear elbow question?

[Ohfor]

...over at Shawn's site.

You have no more credibility there than you do here.

It all went up in smoke with that bridge your burnt.

[fungo22]

When comparative analysis generates hypotheses, then I look around and see if evidence exists.

This is a deception, Tom. You're just trying to salvage your credibility. This is the first you've ever mentioned using your golf and throwing analyses as hypotheses. At Shawn's site, numerous times on this site, and earlier even in this thread you have argued directly from analogies as a basis for what you think you know about teaching the high-level swing.

As I have repeatedly mentioned, the evidence is there.

Repeating it doesn't make it so.

For example, Zig's motionanlysis that shows the similarities between golf and hitting in actual in vivo experiments with real high level golfers and hitters.

Nobody denied the similarities. You've vaguely referred me to Zigler's motion analyses twice before and both time I followed your links and read what there was. On one occasion it was irrelevent and the other time it was irrelevant. I have no idea what you are trying to prove from that stuff. For the third time: As you've presented it, Zigler's stuff is irrelevant to anything you've argued.

Rather than looking for useful data there, Nyman just tried to discredit Zig.So0und familar. There is a pattern there.

I don't know what pattern you're talking about. If you're trying to imply that I've tried to discredit Zigler, then your memory sucks or you're full of crap. I have never attempted to discredit Zigler. I have simply pointed out that his motion analysis data is not evidence of anything you've sought to establish.

Yeager has real weight shift and videoanalysis data/info.

Not just the right stuff but the real stuff too.

You think Nyman and Englishbey are saving the world from dangerous purveyors of vaporware like me OR are they teaching a generation of kids to get locked in to spinning?

Hepp me, hepp me. I got locked into spinning. I'm so dizzy, my body's spinning. What are you teaching kids?

Sound familar. There is a pattern there ... Caveat lector. Let the video be your guide and keep looking.

Hannibal Lecter. Do you really think you can dissect me with that blunt little tool?

[jimmiemac]

You have no more credibility there than you do here.

It all went up in smoke with that bridge your burnt.

And your credibility has yet to be established.

[jimmiemac]

Ever heard of the Evelyn Woodhead Speed Reading Course?

Or do you need the "Soprano" technique of comprehension?

I will type slower for you....

[jimmiemac]

Jimmie, I know a bit about words a logic (well, a lot, actually), and I know a bit about how Steve thinks, though not nearly so much as Mark. And it seems to me that you're kinda pickin' a fight here... maybe just to see if there's a "mistake" that the highly-lauded SteveE may have made. As I read the one passage that you've plucked out, Steve offers a reason why some (and he doesn't say 'high level') coaches prefer a particular technique -- and Steve isn't particularly critical. He seems to praise them for recognizing and attacking the problem, but suggests that maybe they (again, he doesn't 'dis' particular coaches) don't do as much as they could to root out the problem. And, I'm sure most of these coaches would concede that they don't understand the underlying musculature that causes the bat drag problem.

That's all Steve says. I don't think anyone says that even these coaches are incapable of coaching successful players. Indeed, I think one of the realities of hitting throughout baseball history is that good players learn as much from watching other players and muscle (and game success) feedback as they do from coaches, at least when they get older.

Now, when the often caustic Ohfor jokingly suggests that it would be nice to have Setpro rules here, it of course has nothing to do with the substance of Setpro theories, but rather Nyman's propensity for banning posters who he felt were too caught up in controverting others without contributing to the debate. (Of course, what was a "contribution" was very, very subjective.) I think it's a fair shot to say that you were more interested in playing "gotcha" with Steve's comments -- suggesting that he was dissing the contributions of top level high school coaches -- than in accurately parsing his comments and debating the merits thereof. That's not to say that there is no value in fairly debating whatever theories that others may post, but I don't think your reading of what Steve said is fair or accurate.

To be sure, MarkH probably jumped ahead a bit because -- while he may not know exactly what Steve meant when he posted those words -- he knows Steve well enough to know that he does not and would not gratuitously trash skilled and successful coaches. I think it's fair to say that Steve is a gentleman of the old fashioned school, trying desperately to avoid confusing personalities with the merits of the issues those personalities are debating (his understandable baiting of Tom Guerry notwithstanding). I hope you have the opportunity to discuss hitting with Steve at some point, and you will understand how little of Steve's zeal for helping others improve their hitting mechanics and coaching is driven by ego, ambition or monetary reward.

Jimmie, beyond this, I can't fathom what you mean by suggesting that this forum somehow is a Setpro site. Certainly, many folks here learned much through the Setpro site, but not necessarily from any one source there. Remember, virtually all of the expatriates from the site were banned from it at least once by Nyman.

Frankly, I've been heavily involved in debates in these forums for about eight months, and I've been astonished at the willingness of many of the players to absorb and incorporate new -- "non-Setpro" -- learning into their hitting theories. Others here can elaborate better than I, but I have the sense that contributions by Steve and, particularly, Hiddengem, have given the sense that hand and wrist strength and quickness have a stronger role in the real world of hitting than the Setpro orthodoxy acknowledged.

URSA, not sure exactly what you are trying to point out here. It is very obvious that your interpretation of Steve's words and mine are far apart and nothing you say seems to reconcile that difference. I think he had a opoint to make and did so in his very first senrtence. You seem to try and buffer those words, but ultimately they are still there.

Ohfor is Ohfor. I can live with him because he offers nothing but comments irrelevant to the actual discussion and therefore easily dismissed. MarkH is someone I have often agreed with in the past on other boards, but also someone I have disagreed. I know his style and know his ultimate goal and therefore also easy to deal with. He will never change and knowing that relieves the burden.

I have definitely changes over the years. My early instructors tuaght me to role my wrists, etc and I carried many of those teachings over in my earlier years. I quickly changed my thinking as I have studied and worked with kids. Basically i do not criticize any coach working day-to-day with kids as did Steve and obviously many others here. What works varies for each kid and each situation.

MarkH constantly hammers watch the MLers to verify. How many MLers got there with the swing MarkH is using to verify? Is the game a lot different at that level that maybe you don't want to teach some aspects until you reach there? Is there enough variation in ML swings that you should tie yourself down to one concept?

On the SetPro, no question this is a Setpro site. Give me a break.

[Mark H]

If it was a setpro site, you would be gone. As for changing, Steve changed my thinking as have others using video of the best in the world. So who were on the other sites? SB or some other troll? Having been around, I would think you would know more but then maybe you do and you are just baiting me. After all, my motivation is to steer people away from bad info and toward good. If that makes me vulnerable to the ocassional troll, I can live with that.

[jimmiemac]

If it was a setpro site, you would be gone. As for changing, Steve changed my thinking as have others using video of the best in the world. So who were on the other sites? SB or some other troll? Having been around, I would think you would know more but then maybe you do and you are just baiting me. After all, my motivation is to steer people away from bad info and toward good. If that makes me vulnerable to the ocassional troll, I can live with that.

Oh good gawd. Bow down to the one you serve.

Again, who's site am I trolling (if that is what I was doing).

Obviously diverting from the posts I made earlier on balance, etc. Tough to get beaten down so bad isn't it?

[Steve Englishbey]

Jimmiemac ,do you know what my background is in terms of playing experience?

Or my experience as a trainer of relatively elite athletes [non-baseball/softball]?

steve

[jimmiemac]

Jimmiemac ,do you know what my background is in terms of playing experience?

Or my experience as a trainer of relatively elite athletes [non-baseball/softball]?

steve

Yes I do and again first sentance emphasis. Thanks for your confirmation.

Follow-up:

Here is your sentence I have objected to. Maybe you want to revisit, maybe not, but I firmly believe you wanted to make a point that you did not prove in your following statements:

I think that one of the main reasons why many coaches [at the high school level down] want the back elbow down is because of the problem of batdrag ,ie external rotation of the back arm to initiate the movement ,to "whip the bat",to overcome the inertia of the bat.{Most do not know the mechanical and psycho-physical realities of bat drag----but they know it when they see it ---and they see it alot in many young hitters.]

As you will see in my posts, I do not have any problem with the comments that followed, except that they were completely dicoonnected from the first. I don't think most HS coaches or below teach the elbow down because of anything related to bat drag. We can battle that issue until hell rises forth because until either of us does an extensive study on the subject there will be no proof, but I firmly believe you were consciencely or sub-conscienclely making an unfounded point in your message. The unfounded point part I can prove because you have no foundation for your point beyond "I believe" and i think you wanted to emphasize that point and so made it part of your opening sentence.

You have many defenders here and that is good, but don't knock down the coaches working every day with kids because they love the game and teach what they know best. You (and I) could probably learn a few things from them even today after your many years of experience.

[Mark H]

Now that's funny. You don't want someone to knock people down. Good one.

[wilson68]

I think that one of the main reasons why many coaches [at the high school level down] want the back elbow down is because of the problem of batdrag ,ie external rotation of the back arm to initiate the movement ,to "whip the bat",to overcome the inertia of the bat.{Most do not know the mechanical and psycho-physical realities of bat drag----but they know it when they see it ---and they see it alot in many young hitters.]

As you will see in my posts, I do not have any problem with the comments that followed, except that they were completely dicoonnected from the first. I don't think most HS coaches or below teach the elbow down because of anything related to bat drag. We can battle that issue until hell rises forth because until either of us does an extensive study on the subject there will be no proof, but I firmly believe you were consciencely or sub-conscienclely making an unfounded point in your message. The unfounded point part I can prove because you have no foundation for your point beyond "I believe" and i think you wanted to emphasize that point and so made it part of your opening sentence.

You have many defenders here and that is good, but don't knock down the coaches working every day with kids because they love the game and teach what they know best. You (and I) could probably learn a few things from them even today after your many years of experience.

Two questions. How does the quoted part of your statement disparage the coaches mentioned?

Why do you believe these coaches teach elbow down?

I personally have no real stake in this, I have know idea why anyone teaches elbows anywhere, but I am curious why this upsets you.

[jimmiemac]

Now that's funny. You don't want someone to knock people down. Good one.

Markie, markie, markie. Sarcacism befuddles you, so lets stick to facts. You have yet to show me anywhere , anyhow what I am saying is incorrect, but continue to resort to ill-funded attacks on me. Lets go after it big guy. Tell me again an athlete's definition of balance?

[jimmiemac]

Two questions. How does the quoted part of your statement disparage the coaches mentioned?

Why do you believe these coaches teach elbow down?

I personally have no real stake in this, I have know idea why anyone teaches elbows anywhere, but I am curious why this upsets you.

I believe that coaches who teach the elbow down are following to teachings of Gary Ward and other instructors who have had tremendous success at the Div 1l level and beyond. His instruction has little if anything to do with bat drag.

[fungo22]

You have yet to show me anywhere , anyhow what I am saying is incorrect, but continue to resort to ill-funded attacks on me.

Perhaps if we pool our resources, we could do a better job of funding them. I've made investments in several less worthy causes.

[jimmiemac]

Perhaps if we pool our resources, we could do a better job of funding them. I've made investments in several less worthy causes.

Go ahead, but funding idiocy just leads to greater idiocy.

[fungo22]

Why do you believe these coaches teach elbow down?

I believe that coaches who teach the elbow down are following to teachings of Gary Ward and other instructors who have had tremendous success at the Div 1l level and beyond. His instruction has little if anything to do with bat drag.

I'm willing to learn something new. What is the purpose of keeping the elbow down according to Gary Ward and others?

I hope the answer isn't that they are following the teachings of Dave Hudgeons and other instructors who have had tremendous success at the MLB level. But in case it is, I pose the same question (for the third time) about Hudgeons.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

When being taught certain hitting techniques as a youngster, I was always taught that keeping the back elbow up, leads to dropping the back shoulder. And of course the term "dropping back shoulder" used to be considered pure evil. Those were the days of being taught to swing "down" at the ball too.

For whatever reason, I've stayed with keeping the back elbow down. Not pressed against the lat down, but more like where the elbow is pointing down and back toward the catcher. It just feels more comfortable, more compact; like I have more control and less slack to deal with. There might be a slight loss of energy by not having it up, but for me, the comfort factor, which then equates to more success at the plate, is a more than fair trade off.

[swingbuster]

If it was a setpro site, you would be gone

I have no dog in this fight ....really.

But you now see what it is like to have an " Ofher- type" committed critic on the other side of the scales. It sort of weighs on you doesn't it. I knew one would surface one day.

[swingbuster]

If it was a setpro site, you would be gone

It will work out....

Steve saw the images from a recent camp. Good shots and I like the pin stripped pants on the black shirt better. Much better.

[Mark H]

I have no dog in this fight ....really.

But you now see what it is like to have an " Ofher- type" committed critic on the other side of the scales. It sort of weighs on you doesn't it. I knew one would surface one day.

What other type is he and what side of the scale is he on besides against anyone who studied setpro and for common platitudes and banalities?

[Steve Englishbey]

As to Jimmiemac's point about me being critical towards coaches [high school down] in the particular comments I made about bat drag and elbow up/down, all I can say is that I have no idea as to how the hell he could see that as criticism.

If he is saying that I am criticizing them for not knowing the mechanical and or pyscho-physical realities involved in bat drag , then he would be incorrect .

It is not a criticism but an empirical fact that is based on my 10 yrs. of observing and talking to literally hundreds of dads ,coaches ,and instructors.
And looking at many books and websites that deal with baseball instruction.

And I will also say in that 10 yr. experience as regards this elbow up or down issue ,I have never once heard the name Gary Ward come up .

I have heard Dave Hudgens name frequently come up as regards this question.

Which makes perfect sense because he is much more well know than Gary Ward .

And is on record as saying [in his book ] that having the back elbow up is one of the worst things a young hitter can do .

Finally on the matter of me learning from "old school " high school coaches ,I will say the following:

I teach hitting mechanics and all that is potentially involved in teaching and understanding the swing process.

Based on my 30 year experience of doing it , and teaching it , the best sources for understanding hitting mechanics and the swing process, are well established sources that come from applied science ,ie kinesiology, sports biomechanics,motor control theory, and motor learning and development.

In terms of understanding what I concluded some time back that I need to really understand , these sources have far greater " explanatory power " than any sources coming from traditional baseball.And one reason why they have greater "explanatory power" is because they help greatly in getting at the issue of cause and effect [which is never an easy thing to get at---but these kinds of sources more readily address cause -effect issues].

My teaching [and interest] is confined almost excluseively to explaining and teaching the swing process , and explaining and teaching the development of a more efficient swing.

Period.

If I worked at a professional level as an instructor I would have an entirely different orientation in terms of what I would focus on .



My point here is that I do not have ,nor am I paid to have a "coaches perspective."

I have a combined player/trainer perspective.


This is a very different orientation relative to a high school coach and if you [or anyone for that matter] are going to try to understand what I teach [and why] you will have to understand this difference much better than you presently do.


steve

[Ohfor]

I have no dog in this fight ....really.

But you now see what it is like to have an " Ofher- type" committed critic on the other side of the scales. It sort of weighs on you doesn't it. I knew one would surface one day.

Now, now, now......I've never been drunk when I posted.

[swingbuster]

Now, now, now......I've never been drunk when I posted.

Well maybe you should try a beer or two first.

Elbow up might be the worst thing a kid can do if it is up wrong, for the wrong reasons, with the wrong grip/ hand set and with the wrong purpose.

So...up or down doesn't tell nearly the whole story. Too little info to make any judgement with that one criteria

[tom.guerry]

Steve E-
Again, I would say you are very confused about what the high level mlb swing is if you think that the primary cause of bat drag is back arm external rotation.

The arm action is best explained by Hodge in descrbing the arm loading for the overhand throw, but the same applies for loading the back arm/shoulder/upper body in hitting.

There is an UNIVERSAL/ABSOLUTE optimal loading sequence the back arm goes through (some overlap, not entirely linear) -forearm pronation-arm internal rotation - arm elevation with secondary extension - then external rotation.

Range of motion is limited in the back shoulder joint,which means that secondary actions can be forced by the primary ones - for example, the back elbow may have to also come down slightly when the arm externally rotates.

These dependencies are what give the different locations of the elbow in different hitters. Loading can proceed well with elbow up or down more depending on how the various motions sum, but, UNIVERSALLY in high level pattern, the back arm sequence will be present and the lead leg will "map" to it.

If you are trying to eliminate bat drag by eliminating back arm external rotation,THEN you are also eliminating the progression to the high level pattern.

As noted well by mankin, the fix for bat drag involves torquing the bat instead of pushing it via the top hand or pulling it with the bottom hand.

Back arm external rotation and lead arm internal rotation are required (but not sufficient) to do this. In the absence of this you will force "spin" or suboptimal high level pattern, both lacking early batspeed and late adjustability.

[Mark H]

JJA and Nyman showed differently. Spend a couple of hours on the field with Steve.