Rear elbow question?

[ssarge]

Donny:

Decent post. There may be some truth to what you say re: the outside pitch w/ REALLY afvanced hitters (I'm actually not sure). But thought provoking.

Again, relating to actually training kids to hit:

Throw the top hand through the center of the ball.

Will be a disasterous cue. Basically analagous to using the word "push" in ANY cue to a kid. The result will be heinous.

Regards,

Scott

[Ohfor]

Webball?

You might as well quote Man Ho PeEp.

[LClifton]

Fungo is in all manner correct here.

Oh my gosh Steve, now we'll really not be able to live with him.

Furthermore I would add that the discussion has been much more about the definition of a one-handed swing.

I think I understand, one hand on and one hand off, end of discussion.

Why are they beneficial ?

Could develop a non top hand dominant swing.
Developing front side coordination for one.
Engaging muscles to keep stability in the body as well as out thru the bat.
It works very well for connection ,,,as another example.
Rotation MUST take place to hit the ball with any consistent pop.

And,,,,It's fun to make kids look silly? (probably not the answer, huh?)
Can I use my other hand please?
Why do I have to do it like this?
This feels uncomfortable....

What are you trying to accomplish with these kinds of practice swings ?

Connection
Stability
Bat Accuracy
Finding the ball with, primarily, the body.

How exactly should you try to use the body [and front arm ] to gain the most benefit from these kinds of one-arm or front arm dominated swings?

Yes, how? They're hard to do.

I watched a guy at Spring Training this year doing them. He plays for the Texas Rangers. He's a pretty dang good hitter.
Maybe he was just showin' off.

[swingbuster]

I would not argue that a top hand dominant kid could benefit from bottom hand drills. Connection AND weight shift( getting off the back side ) will be a positive side effect.

[swingbuster]

Scott,

I don't know how early one needs to address the issue of pitch locations middle / in vs middle/ away.

I think by 11-14, kids need some REAL sense of how the game will be played if they stay in it.

Pull field preference is a big problem. At some point it must be addressed.

I tend to enjoy oppo hitting drills and think they benefit pull hitter's power production even from the pull side.

FB on the outside 1/3 of the plate is a high probability pitch in HS for the pitcher.

[jojab]

For those that might be interested in what Nyman's thoughts are these days on the "rear arm", he posted a partial video presentation in the free section of his forums today. It is about 5 minutes long. The rest of the video presentation is in the paid section but at least you'll get the general idea from the free clip.

Go to the second post and click on the link called: "posture-connection-rolling the wrists"

Here is the link to the webpage:

http://setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8265

[ssarge]

Donny:

Outside pitches are more probable in HS FP than BB. Called for strikes further outside, too, generally.

The question ISN'T whether it is appropriate to learn to hit them - clearly, it is.

The question is which mechanics are appropriate.


And my belief is that attempting it by mandating top hand dominance is not the best approach for a young hitter. Maybe not for any hitter. But I've been wrong before.

Regards,

Scott

[Steve Englishbey]

Swingbuster ,your post no.249 on bottom hand swings ,how to hit a ball to right center [right-hander] ,the role of the top hand in hitting to right field [or hitting in general] etc., I pretty much totally disagree with [and there are a bunch of reasons why ].

And this would be consistent with thoughts I had going back to what I wrote on Hitting-Mech. [which both you and Doug wrote in the thread] when I commented about most high school hitters cannot drive a ball to the opposite field.[Which Doug also commented on that he saw in most high school hitters]

As I explained then ,this has much to do with how the back arm tends to dominate the swing for most hitters.[They develop movement and muscle action that is a function of learning early on how to get the bat moving by using the back arm.]
And how most hitters have essentially programmed their swing to hit middle in pitches ,ie they do not know how to use the body [arms included] to create "rotational extension"-----combining big "impulse" of the body with late front arm extension into balls low and away and middle out.

The greater the "impulse" of the body ie , the greater the ability to generate very large momentum of the body to uncoil.

The greater the ability to generate large impulse of the body ,the longer you can wait as a hitter.[ This is really the only thing that will help you to really learn how to wait longer.And if you do not learn how to create the kind of strong uncoiling of the body[impulse] to initiate the swing ,it is irrational to try to wait .

If , you learn that you can can wait longer -----but generate more powerful momentum to initiate the swing----you will learn how to hit a middle out pitch.

If you combine this greater impulse with learning how to create front arm extension into middle out pitches , you will learn how to hit middle out pitches with authority. This kind of "extension" becomes a part of the rotation ----the end product of impulse and well-timed unhinging of the bat ----done without losing any momentum of the bat head.Done really well and you can increase batspeed [ bigger"flywheel" ,combined with a larger radius,eg., Macguire,Griffey]

Done correctly ,the front arm swings that I advocate, are part of learning how to create a much better physical understanding of "rotational extension."

It has nothing to do with THT or BHT . [See JJa's comments ,Paul Nyman's recent description, Joof's comments on swing planes here recently.]

And if anything ,it would be Charlie Lau [Jr and Sr.] who have some pretty good understanding of the front arm action if you will relative to most baseball/softball instructors.[ though it has to be understood that this front arm action not independent of "impulse" ---the body 's ability to generate large momentum quickly.And it has to be understood that these two components [body /front arm ] have to work synergistically.

As long as you [Swingbuster] are guided by Tht and Tom Guerry's ill-concieved biomechanical "expertise" ,you are not going to understand what you need to understand.

steve

[Ohfor]

[swingbuster]

If , you learn that you can can wait longer -----but generate more powerful momentum to initiate the swing----you will learn how to hit a middle out pitch.

Programming the body to wait ...how much longer?.....005 seconds difference maybe? and make the same swing is not teachable IMO.

Julio Franko doesn't just wait longer to hit oppo and he is an old guy that has been around surviving a long long time.

You can see the bat sets of guys hoping for an away pitch. They are different and more vertical.

THere is more to it than waiting for sure. You must get inside the pitch and that is due to certain definable mechanics.

[Ohfor]

Learn what impulse is.

It's clear you don't get it.

Then you can learn to wait however much longer you need.

[Ohfor]

Programming the body to wait ...how much longer?.....005 seconds difference maybe? and make the same swing is not teachable IMO.

Hell no. Not when you need all that time to BHUT.

Just like your hitters proved to you this past weekend.

THERE'S NO TIME FOR BHUT.

Rid them of the BHUT. Rid them of arm action. And teach them impulse.

[swingbuster]

Swingbuster ,your post no.249 on bottom hand swings ,how to hit a ball to right center [right-hander] ,the role of the top hand in hitting to right field [or hitting in general] etc., I pretty much totally disagree with [and there are a bunch of reasons why ].

If that entire post is wrong...you are correct...I do not know one thing about hitting a baseball.

Our offical ( from tonights book) .332 team BA , four kids over .400,
24( corrected) HRS ( all 34 year school records) and 3A runner up finish at State mean nothing. Our RCF to RF home run production was a dream too.

Man-O- Man

I should have had Ofher giving them pulse therapy

[Ohfor]

Wait a little longer...........impulse it to left.

Pound for pound, not too many go oppo/with power better than this guy. He hits this ball right out of the catchers mitt. Waited. Ball very deep. He changes the direction of his rotation and because of his "impulse" ability he drives this ball.

I believe you learned your shortcomings this past weekend.

They hit the wall.

They went as far as you could take them.

[swingbuster]

They hit the wall.

They went as far as you could take them.

Let me know when you get off the B Team and then report the BA and we will see how far you take him

impulse it to left

.

Word of the week?

[LClifton]

Julio Franko doesn't just wait longer to hit oppo and he is an old guy that has been around surviving a long long time

.
Maybe he learned it a long time ago. How to wait.

The milliseconds of extra time enjoyed by extra swing quickness can be a huge benefit. (refer to Dmac's comments on scouting for 4 frame swings)
MOST of the time you find youth hitters swing TOO EARLY.
Why? Improper connection / rotation, lots of slop, unproductive movement, terrible methods of getting the barrel around.
Using cues like, throwing the top hand thru the center of the ball... (kidding)

Swinging with connected rotation improves quickness, therefore the luxury of waiting fractionally longer to unleash the swing / release the impulse.

Donnie, Your point of hand set (not getting the hands trapped behind) could be a contributor to this success. But it is the connected, rotation (NON MLB PATTERN) as referred to by some, that is the rest of the cure / remedy to early swings which are hand and arm dominated swings.

[Ohfor]

New word to wannabes who won't buy the DVD.

There are others.

I'd say we do a pretty good job of protecting his property while still giving good advice.

[Ohfor]

Let me know when you get off the B Team and then report the BA and we will see how far you take him

I already told you he's not a prospect. I believe he was 3 for 15 with 2 doubles playing 1 game/doubleheader every two/three weeks. Not a lot of reps in practice and surrounded by misinformation. Both doubles were the best hits ever for him (350-375') off the best pitching he's ever seen.

Now, that's the difference between us and you. We're learning to hit the good stuff. You're hitting thumbers.

You've stated you have a couple prospects.

I believe they will tell the "rest of the story". You know, the one you refuse to learn in advance so that they have their best shot.

[swingbuster]

I taught kids how to preset, turn and yank it before you did Ohfer and it left much to be desired.

Good hitters can do much more

I believe they will tell the "rest of the story". You know, the one you refuse to learn in advance so that they have their best shot.

I watch SEC players get wide and turn....they never go anywhere in pro ball with that muscle swing

They went as far as you could take them.

One run from State Championship is pretty far Rich

[Ohfor]

I taught kids how to preset, turn and yank it before you did Ohfer and it left much to be desired.

When you learn what and how we teach you'll learn just how stupid this comment is.

Good hitters can do much more

I watch SEC players get wide and turn....they never go anywhere in pro ball with that muscle swing

One run from State Championship is pretty far Rich

I hope high school was your kids' ultimate goal.

[swingbuster]

I hope high school was your kids' ultimate goal.

A HS state championship was our goal. You don't coach your HS team to get individual players college scholarships. That is not my job. The individual players have to do be willing to do the extra work for that

[Ohfor]

A HS state championship was our goal. You don't coach your HS team to get individual players college scholarships. That is not my job. The individual players have to do be willing to do the extra work for that

Spin. More spin. Spin piled high and deep.

Cloud the issue with scholarships and championships.

So, you, the "hitting coach", just gave them the "high school" lesson. It didn't cross your mind to make them good hitters. Hitters that can advance to the next level. Didn't cross your mind to teach them "the right stuff" that will take them to their genetic potential. Are you saying you "used" them.......just to get a championship? You just gave them the high school dose? You have no regard for their future?

You have

[swingbuster]

Hitters that can advance to the next level

Half the team could walk on Juco Ofher...what are you calling the next level .

I have a pitcher 11-0 era 1.30 ; 5 walks in 200 at bats ;struck out 49......he isn't even talking to anybody. THink he could play somewhere?

[LClifton]

Just before you two started your lovely conversation,
I posted some pretty good s**t above
and I would be thankful if you would read it and tell me
I'm FOS or that you liked it. I put a lot of thought into it.

Thank you.




Just havin a little fun....Did ya laugh ?

[Ohfor]

.
Maybe he learned it a long time ago. How to wait.

The milliseconds of extra time enjoyed by extra swing quickness can be a huge benefit. (refer to Dmac's comments on scouting for 4 frame swings)

zackly

MOST of the time you find youth hitters swing TOO EARLY.
Why? Improper connection / rotation, lots of slop, unproductive movement, terrible methods of getting the barrel around.
Using cues like, throwing the top hand thru the center of the ball.

Most hitters fear being late so much that they start early. And, the faster and better pitchers, the earlier they start. Never giving consideration to "how do I quicken up" my swing. Slop is prevalent. Slop defines young hitters. They'll never get rid of it by starting early.

Swinging with connected rotation improves quickness, therefore the luxury of waiting fractionally longer to unleash the swing / release the impulse.

Bingo. I see "impulse" in Jenna. That is the first thing I saw about her swing.

You are not the one FOS. The head "FOS" is Man Ho Peep (Mankin Hodge Peavey Epstein...the hybrid man who claims he's not)...........and his followers.