Your Extreme Positions

[Windy City Fan]

I've seen a lot guys around here get pounded for the rankings they hold on certain players. Yet, I think most of the regular posters here have at least one or two players they rank significantly higher or lower than community at large. So, if you've got the guts post your most extreme positions here and see if they stand up to the scrutiny of others. I'll go first.

1. Greg Maddux is the greatest pitcher ever.
2. Mickey Cochrane is the greatest catcher ever.
3. Alex Rodriguez is already a top 15 player and has a reasonable shot at surpassing Wagner.
4. Al Kaline is a top 25 player.
5. Honus Wagner belongs at the back end of the top 10.
6. Christy Mathewson is clearly not equal to Maddux, Clemens, Grove, Seaver, Young, Alexander, and Walter Johnson.
7. Ted Williams was a better pure hitter than Babe Ruth.
8. Tim Raines is top 50 player.

Debate me on any point if you want, but only if you post your own extreme positions.

[leecemark]

--While I certainly disagree with many people on many points, probably the only truely extreme position I have is Mike Schmidt at #5 all time. I think there are only a couple other people who have him in their top 10, although many have him top 15.
--I disagree pretty strongly with points 1 and 2 on your list, although both Maddux and Cochrane are top 5 IMO.
--3) I've got A-Rod at 19, but agree he has a good shot at top 10 (or even top 5 or...) before he's done.
--4) Kaline's peak was just too low for him to be a top 25 player.
--5) Agree
--6) Agreed again and I think that Matty's slide towards the back of the top 10 is more widely agreed upon than Wagner.
--7) Better "pure" hitter probably, but better I don't think so. Teddy is the Babe only legit challenger.
--8) Top 100 for sure and maybe top 75, but top 50?

[Blackout]

I've got Robinson Cano over Joe Morgan and Rogers Hornsby

discuss.

[Windy City Fan]

--While I certainly disagree with many people on many points, probably the only truely extreme position I have is Mike Schmidt at #5 all time. I think there are only a couple other people who have him in their top 10, although many have him top 15.
--I disagree pretty strongly with points 1 and 2 on your list, although both Maddux and Cochrane are top 5 IMO.
--3) I've got A-Rod at 19, but agree he has a good shot at top 10 (or even top 5 or...) before he's done.
--4) Kaline's peak was just too low for him to be a top 25 player.
--5) Agree
--6) Agreed again and I think that Matty's slide towards the back of the top 10 is more widely agreed upon than Wagner.
--7) Better "pure" hitter probably, but better I don't think so. Teddy is the Babe only legit challenger.
--8) Top 100 for sure and maybe top 75, but top 50?

While most people rank him highly, having Mays at the number one spot could be considered extreme. There's not a lot of support for him there. Its not extremely out of whack with were most of us rank him, but since it's the top spot, it generates enough attention that you could include it.

7) I'm not sure what you mean here. "Better "pure" hitter probably, but better I don't think so." I rank Williams as a better hitter, but Ruth as a better player if that clarifies my stance for ya.

8.) I've got him at 50 right now, so its not a hard position, but I think Raines underrated by a lot of people. If Henderson is a top 20 guy, which is a fairly popular stance around here, why can't Raines be a top 50 guy? At their peaks they were pretty close. Henderson's career has more depth, but Raines made a pretty good career for himself and overcame a serious disease (lupus I believe) as well.

[The Dude]

WCF:

2.I would like to have a debate with you about why you have Cochrane at No.1, as I used to have him there myself. Would you care to explain why you have him above Bench, Berra, Campanella, Carter, etc.?
5. Kaline was a great five-tool player. But I don't think he put together enough to make him a top 25 player to surpass say, someone like Johnny Mize.


Mine.
1.Grover Cleveland Alexander is the greatest pitcher of all time. Greg Maddux is a close second.
2.Richie Ashburn is almost as valuable as Duke Snider and is a top 50 player.
3.Rickey Henderson is not a top 50 player.
4.Stan Musial is the most underated player of all time and is easily one of the top 4 players of all time, and could be no.1
5.Gary Carter is the 3rd greatest catcher of all time (This is a new one for me).
6.The hall of fame should be extremely inclusive, showcasing the greatest defensive players of each position.
7.Wade Boggs is the 2nd greatest 3rd-Sacker of all time, and a top 25 player,.
8.Bert Blyleven is the 26th Greatest starting pitcher since 1900.
9.Dave Stieb is deserving of the hall of fame.

[RuthMayBond]

I've seen a lot guys around here get pounded for the rankings they hold on certain players. Yet, I think most of the regular posters here have at least one or two players they rank significantly higher or lower than community at large. So, if you've got the guts post your most extreme positions here and see if they stand up to the scrutiny of others. I'll go first.

1. Greg Maddux is the greatest pitcher ever.
2. Mickey Cochrane is the greatest catcher ever.
3. Alex Rodriguez is already a top 15 player and has a reasonable shot at surpassing Wagner.
4. Al Kaline is a top 25 player.
5. Honus Wagner belongs at the back end of the top 10.
6. Christy Mathewson is clearly not equal to Maddux, Clemens, Grove, Seaver, Young, Alexander, and Walter Johnson.
7. Ted Williams was a better pure hitter than Babe Ruth.
8. Tim Raines is top 50 player.

Debate me on any point if you want, but only if you post your own extreme positions.

I don't know if I've got any extreme positions (you guys can correct me on that one ) The only ones of yours I'd definitely debate are 2-5 and maybe part of 6 (glad to see someone who doesn't overrate Matty

[RuthMayBond]

Mine.
1.Grover Cleveland Alexander is the greatest pitcher of all time. Greg Maddux is a close second.
2.Richie Ashburn is almost as valuable as Duke Snider and is a top 50 player.
3.Rickey Henderson is not a top 50 player.
4.Stan Musial is the most underated player of all time and is easily one of the top 4 players of all time, and could be no.1
5.Gary Carter is the 3rd greatest catcher of all time (This is a new one for me).
6.The hall of fame should be extremely inclusive, showcasing the greatest defensive players of each position.

1, 4, 5 & 6 are not that far off.
2 & 3, on the other hand

[leecemark]

--Mays at #1 is certainly a minority position, but I don't know how extreme it is. That is only 2 spots over his consensus ranking was in our last player polls. Of course, I don't think any of my positions are extreme. When people disagree with me its just because they haven't really thought things through .

[1905 Giants]

Here's Mine:

1. Jackie Robinson is a top 25 player.
2. Bruce Sutter may be the greatest closer ever.
3. Mantle is no where near Mays in talent.
4. Joe Dimaggio is way, way overated as a ploayer and is not that good in many contexts.

[Brian McKenna]

I've seen a lot guys around here get pounded for the rankings they hold on certain players. Yet, I think most of the regular posters here have at least one or two players they rank significantly higher or lower than community at large. So, if you've got the guts post your most extreme positions here and see if they stand up to the scrutiny of others. I'll go first.

1. Greg Maddux is the greatest pitcher ever.
2. Mickey Cochrane is the greatest catcher ever.
3. Alex Rodriguez is already a top 15 player and has a reasonable shot at surpassing Wagner.
4. Al Kaline is a top 25 player.
5. Honus Wagner belongs at the back end of the top 10.
6. Christy Mathewson is clearly not equal to Maddux, Clemens, Grove, Seaver, Young, Alexander, and Walter Johnson.
7. Ted Williams was a better pure hitter than Babe Ruth.
8. Tim Raines is top 50 player.

Debate me on any point if you want, but only if you post your own extreme positions.

thanks for laying it out

1. Greg Maddux is the greatest pitcher ever.
i agree

2. Mickey Cochrane is the greatest catcher ever.
can't argue that point - maybe no one else combined hitting and fielding better though bench is also there and perhaps josh gibson but that is unfortunately mostly word of mouth

3. Alex Rodriguez is already a top 15 player and has a reasonable shot at surpassing Wagner.
i would say top-10

4. Al Kaline is a top 25 player.
sorry, top-25 is too elite for kaline

6. Christy Mathewson is clearly not equal to Maddux, Clemens, Grove, Seaver, Young, Alexander, and Walter Johnson.
mathewson indeed played on more contenders than the others but frankly a deadball pitcher would never top my list

7. Ted Williams was a better pure hitter than Babe Ruth.
ruth is absolutely one of a kind - the greatest athlete above his contemporary peers than any other in american sports history - not sure what pure hitter means but in overall perspective of a ballplayer williams falls short

[ElHalo]

A lot of my views are outside the mainstream, but I wouldn't really call them wacky. The only one that I think people would really call loony is my putting Pie Traynor number one overall at 3B (well, except ARod), which is solely a factor of the absolutely monumental intangibles boost I give him due to his uncanny ability to keep his teammates sober and focused.

I think one that people might consider lunacy is saying that Chuck Klein had one of the top five or six peaks of all time.

[The Dude]

There's a lot of variables in there EH. 3/5 year peak? Raw or adjusted peak?

If you're going with a 5-year Raw peak, I would agree without even thinking about it EH. If you wanted an adjusted peak, he falls a bit maybe. Top 15-25?

[Brian McKenna]

Here's Mine:

1. Jackie Robinson is a top 25 player.
i don't agree

3. Mantle is no where near Mays in talent.
i think mantle is among the most overrated of all-time

4. Joe Dimaggio is way, way overated as a player and is not that good in many contexts.
dimaggio is overrated in the fact that he is tauted as a god so often - he wasn't and as a man he definitely wasn't - can't stand those with such big egos - and it's kind of funny that he wanted to turn the nation's premier wh*** into a housewife

[Brian McKenna]

There's a lot of variables in there EH. 3/5 year peak? Raw or adjusted peak?

If you're going with a 5-year Raw peak, I would agree without even thinking about it EH. If you wanted an adjusted peak, he falls a bit maybe. Top 15-25?

what????????

[Windy City Fan]

WCF:

2.I would like to have a debate with you about why you have Cochrane at No.1, as I used to have him there myself. Would you care to explain why you have him above Bench, Berra, Campanella, Carter, etc.?
5. Kaline was a great five-tool player. But I don't think he put together enough to make him a top 25 player to surpass say, someone like Johnny Mize.

First off, I absolutely love his plate discipline. Great eye with a low K rate. He's the 31st most difficult hitter to strikeout in terms of K/AB ratio (granted this is unadjusted for era, but Cochrane was pretty darned good at putting the ball in play).

Secondly, Cochrane had good speed for a catcher (not saying he was a sprinter or anything, but Mack did occassionally bat him lead off), good leadership qualities, and a good glove. He wasn't a great slugger like Bench or Berra, but he held his own there.

Third, I don't hold his short career against him. The beaning ended his career and almost took his life, but he was still a productive player. He was coming off an injury year in 1937 (what happened to him that year, I still don't know), but off to a good start. Granted it was only 27 games, but Cochrane was hitting for a good average, while drawing walks at his usual rate, and hitting the ball for power again (.490 SLG). All of this was tragically cut short when he got hit and then his career was over. I don't think its a stretch to say Cochrane had another year or two left him around his career rate stats and then probably in a normal catcher's career would've had a few decline years before retiring. His OPS+ disp a little maybe, but still stays around the levels of Berra and Bench's career marks. Bench and Berra have era adjustments going for them, but they also played time at other less demanding positions. Cochrane played every game but one behind the plate and was pretty durable except for in '36 when he got hurt.

Really, a big part of it is a style preference. Bench and Berra may have been slightly better hitters (its a lot closer than some people think though), but I like Cochrane's plate discipline and contact hitting mixed with decent power over the more slugging approach of Bench and Berra.

Kaline was a great RFer who had the skills to be a great CFer if his team had room for him there. Plus he played in a pretty tough era for hitters and a deep league. Mize was a so-so defensive first baseman in a weak NL in an era that favored hitters. I can see the case that Mize's power out does Kaline's balanced game, but I'll still take Kaline.

Mine.
1.Grover Cleveland Alexander is the greatest pitcher of all time. Greg Maddux is a close second.
2.Richie Ashburn is almost as valuable as Duke Snider and is a top 50 player.
3.Rickey Henderson is not a top 50 player.
4.Stan Musial is the most underated player of all time and is easily one of the top 4 players of all time, and could be no.1
5.Gary Carter is the 3rd greatest catcher of all time (This is a new one for me).
6.The hall of fame should be extremely inclusive, showcasing the greatest defensive players of each position.
7.Wade Boggs is the 2nd greatest 3rd-Sacker of all time, and a top 25 player,.
8.Bert Blyleven is the 26th Greatest starting pitcher since 1900.
9.Dave Stieb is deserving of the hall of fame.

1. Disagree, but I don't think its entirely unreasonable.
2 and 3. Strongly disagree and I'd love to hear your arguments.
4. Disagree. Musial was great, no doubt, but he wasn't on par with Mays/Ruth/Cobb for the top spot. Aaron is my 4 guy, and I'm pretty confident he belongs there ahead of Musial. Williams, Gerhig, Mantle, Wagner, and Bonds are in the same tier as Musial in my book.
5. I like Carter, but 3rd seems really high. Over Cochrane, Fisk, Dickey, Harnett, Piazza, Campy, and I-Rod? Do tell.
6. Defense is underrated and should be factored in more.
7. Boggs to 25? Ahead of Brett and Mathews? Again, I'm all ears.
8. Pretty close to where I'd see him, maybe a tad high.
9. Pretty short career with no jaw dropping peak, I don't see the case for Stieb.

[Windy City Fan]

Here's Mine:

1. Jackie Robinson is a top 25 player.
2. Bruce Sutter may be the greatest closer ever.
3. Mantle is no where near Mays in talent.
4. Joe Dimaggio is way, way overated as a ploayer and is not that good in many contexts.

1. I like Robinson and give him some credit for hit time in the NeL, but top 25? At second base I have Morgan, Collins, Hornsby and Lajoie ahead of him. Gerhinger has a case too, but I take Robinson. I have Robinson at 32, but I can't see him going much higher.
3. Better than Gossage and Wilhelm? And Rivera and Eckersley have their supporters too.
4. Mantle's peak really was astounding. For raw talent, Mantle has a case for top spot (as does Willie). Mays proved to be durable however, Mantle let himself fall apart.
5. Overrated? Yes, but "not that good" though is going way too far. No matter how you slice it, DiMaggio was a great player.

[Windy City Fan]

A lot of my views are outside the mainstream, but I wouldn't really call them wacky. The only one that I think people would really call loony is my putting Pie Traynor number one overall at 3B (well, except ARod), which is solely a factor of the absolutely monumental intangibles boost I give him due to his uncanny ability to keep his teammates sober and focused.

I think one that people might consider lunacy is saying that Chuck Klein had one of the top five or six peaks of all time.

Tell us what you think about Greg Maddux and where you rank him. I'm pretty sure you rank Maranville a lot higher than most of us do. Your rankings on Reggie Jackson, Joe Jackson, Joe Morgan, and Mike Schimdt are usually good for discussion too.

[Blackout]

Joe Dimaggio > Willie Mays

[leecemark]

--Pinstripes = legendary player?

[Blackout]

--Pinstripes = legendary player?

no

talent = legendary player

[Windy City Fan]

Yeah, and Mays had more of it than DiMaggio.

[Blackout]

Yeah, and Mays had more of it than DiMaggio.

Who would you rather:



or




Joking aside, everyone has their extreme positions, and none of them can truly be justified or disproven.

I say Dimaggio > Mays > Mantle.

[Windy City Fan]

True, that its pretty hard to empircally show one opinion to be superior to another, but you could try giving us your reasoning for your stance of DiMaggio over Mays.

[Blackout]

I personally think Mays and Mantle are both slightly over-rated mainstream wise due to the expansion of television in the 50's and 60's

Meanwhile, Dimaggio outside of baseball circles is known as "that guy who married Monroe".

Dimagg. lead the Yankees to 10 world series in 13 years, he was a proven winner.

Mays had a few world series, and Mantle was apart of the 50's dynasty, but 10 in 13? nope.

It's alot different than saying Doug Meinkewitz ('04 Sox) must be better than A-rod because he has a ring, because Dimaggio was clearly the Yanks star. He was ultra competitive and would stop at nothing to win, I like that in a player (same reason I have Ty Cobb above all 3 of them).

Plus 3 MVPs despite being killed by Death Valley doesn't hurt either.

Both had the same career OPS+, but Dimaggio lost 3 prime years, which leads me to believe his would've been a little higher than Mays' had the war not happened.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

7) I'm not sure what you mean here. "Better "pure" hitter probably, but better I don't think so." I rank Williams as a better hitter, but Ruth as a better player if that clarifies my stance for ya.

Both had amazing eyes at the plate. Both hit for huge averages while also hitting for power, although Babe hit for more power. Not sure many realize what a huge lead .56 points in SA is.