Why is Ripken a shoe in?!

[DickGernert#1]

Say hey everybody,

I'm a rookie and have been wondering for a long time why the heck Cal Ripkin Jr. is a hall of fame shoe in?

I don't really understand what makes him such an amazing player that he should be in the HOF. When I read through his lines am I missing something?

He's a career .276 hitter, .340 OPS, yeah I understand the 3184 hits is usually an automatic HOF stat, but what makes him so special.

Fielding he was always talked of as a great, but he only has two gold gloves. Yeah I know he has a .976 fielding percent, but for 21 years only two gold gloves does not look that good.

The streak, don't go there, it was garbage, we all know by the last couple of years he wasn't of value offensively to the team, defensively yes, but no in the batter's box. He was kept in because no one wanted to hurt the nicest guy in the game (besides Tony Gywnn) by making him sit out. Don't count 1994 on the batting box (he wouldn't have maintained that especially with the bookends of his performances of 1992-93, 95-98).

I'm sorry I sound like such a rube, but I really do like Ripkin, I just don't think he is a HOFer. I know there are some great defensive HOFers who made it in solely on defense (Scooter), but they really aren't HOFers either.

Someone help me out, give me a reason to cheer louder than usual next year when Cal gets up for his speech in Cooperstown.

PS-Next year will be my fourth induction in a row, how far do I have to go to break the streak for most inductions attended by a Baseball Fever member? This year was amazing, Buck O'Neil's honor and grace was the star of the show.

[Sliding Billy]

So you'd say he's a shoe in and a shoe out, Dick? (Wonderful user ID, btw)

[TheJourneyman]

ROY
2 Time MVP
400+ HRs
3,000+ hits
2 time gold glove
8 time silver slugger
Too many All-Stars to count
He pretty much revolutionized the position - you never saw a 6'4" guy play SS

[538280]

Saying he was a .276 hitter and then tossing his hitting aside is completely ludicrous. He hit for great power from SS. His 113 OPS+ from shortstop, with that long a career, is good enough for enshrinement in itself. He won two MVPs, probably deserved three, I have him in the top 25 players of all time, and I don't give any extra streak credit either.

[LouGehrig]

[QUOTE=DickGernert#1]
the nicest guy in the game .
QUOTE]

You make some excellent points. The above explains much of it---IMAGE.

[DickGernert#1]

Thank you guys. Now that you pointed out some of the other points that I missed. I do understand why.

Journeyman - I like you short and concise list. The only point I diagree with is All-Star appearences, I discount those as sometimes being too much of a popularity contest and not the best person at each position. Everything else I get.

528380(Rickey rocks, and I mean that, in the third person) - Rickey makes an excellent point. That's why Rickey is such a great and intelligent man.

LouGehrig - I think my browser is acting weird because I missed the image in your post.

Sliding Billy - Thanks for the laugh and I have a connection to my username. I am his second cousin. He's one of the nicest guys I've ever met.

Thanks again. I am now ready to scream again for Cal next year.

[TheJourneyman]

Thank you guys. Now that you pointed out some of the other points that I missed. I do understand why.

Journeyman - I like you short and concise list. The only point I diagree with is All-Star appearences, I discount those as sometimes being too much of a popularity contest and not the best person at each position. Everything else I get.

528380(Rickey rocks, and I mean that, in the third person) - Rickey makes an excellent point. That's why Rickey is such a great and intelligent man.

LouGehrig - I think my browser is acting weird because I missed the image in your post.

Sliding Billy - Thanks for the laugh and I have a connection to my username. I am his second cousin. He's one of the nicest guys I've ever met.

Thanks again. I am now ready to scream again for Cal next year.

I agree with you on the All-Star is a popularity contest but I think the voters take that into consideration atleast a little bit. That was why it was listed.

[bluezebra]

Say hey everybody,

I'm a rookie and have been wondering for a long time why the heck Cal Ripkin Jr. is a hall of fame shoe in?

I don't really understand what makes him such an amazing player that he should be in the HOF. When I read through his lines am I missing something?

He's a career .276 hitter, .340 OPS, yeah I understand the 3184 hits is usually an automatic HOF stat, but what makes him so special.

Fielding he was always talked of as a great, but he only has two gold gloves. Yeah I know he has a .976 fielding percent, but for 21 years only two gold gloves does not look that good.

The streak, don't go there, it was garbage, we all know by the last couple of years he wasn't of value offensively to the team, defensively yes, but no in the batter's box. He was kept in because no one wanted to hurt the nicest guy in the game (besides Tony Gywnn) by making him sit out. Don't count 1994 on the batting box (he wouldn't have maintained that especially with the bookends of his performances of 1992-93, 95-98).

I'm sorry I sound like such a rube, but I really do like Ripkin, I just don't think he is a HOFer. I know there are some great defensive HOFers who made it in solely on defense (Scooter), but they really aren't HOFers either.

Someone help me out, give me a reason to cheer louder than usual next year when Cal gets up for his speech in Cooperstown.

PS-Next year will be my fourth induction in a row, how far do I have to go to break the streak for most inductions attended by a Baseball Fever member? This year was amazing, Buck O'Neil's honor and grace was the star of the show.

Cal RIPKEN, Jr.

The term is SHOO-IN.

Bob

[KCGHOST]

He's a career .276 hitter, .340 OPS, yeah I understand the 3184 hits is usually an automatic HOF stat, but what makes him so special.

Fielding he was always talked of as a great, but he only has two gold gloves. Yeah I know he has a .976 fielding percent, but for 21 years only two gold gloves does not look that good.

The streak, don't go there, it was garbage, we all know by the last couple of years he wasn't of value offensively to the team, defensively yes, but no in the batter's box.

Someone help me out, give me a reason to cheer louder than usual next year when Cal gets up for his speech in Cooperstown.

Seven of his top ten comparables are HoFers (the other three are Biggio, Baines, and Dawson). He is above average on the HoF Monitor and the HoF Standards tests. And while you disparage the "streak" you have to credit him for breaking a record that was generally considered to be unbreakable.

Also as an SS he ranks 1st in HR's, 1st in extra base hits, 2nd in hits, 2nd in rbi's, and 2nd in runs.

Now, maybe all this doesn't add up to your idea of a top notch HoFer, but it ought to at least get him into the building.

[Wade8813]

LouGehrig - I think my browser is acting weird because I missed the image in your post.

The image is Cal Ripken Jr's image - his perception by the fans. Not a literal photograph.

[Chelle]

ROY
2 Time MVP
400+ HRs
3,000+ hits
2 time gold glove
8 time silver slugger
Too many All-Stars to count
He pretty much revolutionized the position - you never saw a 6'4" guy play SS

Thank you for recognizing his acheivements AND not mentioning the streak. Cal is more then just the streak...he's a great player who made the power hitting shortstop what it is today. Ask many of the current SS (or those who were SS) A-Rod, Jeter...who they wanted to be like...and they say Cal.

[TheJourneyman]

Thank you for recognizing his acheivements AND not mentioning the streak. Cal is more then just the streak...he's a great player who made the power hitting shortstop what it is today. Ask many of the current SS (or those who were SS) A-Rod, Jeter...who they wanted to be like...and they say Cal.

I for one think the streak is great but too many people think that is all he did. Cal was one of the All Time Greats IMO and should be remember for more than JUST the streak. The streak wouldn't be as impressive if he didn't do it while putting up the numbers he did.

[brett]

Ripken's rookie baseball card was the first card I ever had. It made an immediate impression. 6-4 shortstop, jet black hair contrasted against the bright orange O's tops of the time. He looked like an Oriole. He was in the follow through of a swing, and you could make out the gray-blue eyes and it even looks like he was biting his lower lip like a little kid hammering one for the first time.

Anyway, as I studied stats, I came to realize that his percentages were not as awesome as his raw numbers-He hit 20+ homeruns in his first 10 seasons, and I wondered just as you did whether he was one big overrated popular player.

Here's his case.

First, from '82-'91-10 his first ten years, league offense was particularly low. When this happens, stats like homeruns and RBI are relatively more important and those like Slg and OB% are less so. The importance of on-base percentage particularly goes up when there is more league offense because there are other guys in the lineup who can drive you in, and making outs is taking the bat out of the hands of better hitters than in Ripkens early years (where if you had a good hitter in the 5 spot, it was a big plus).

1) When Ripken came into the league, there were only 4 players-Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Stan Musial and Carl Yastzremski (sp?) who had 3000 hits and 400 homeruns in a career. It was one of the ultimate clubs, and it was composed of outfielders-not middle infielders.

2) His seasons in '83 and '91 in particular were very dynamic offensive seasons in that time period. I thought that Eddie Murray might have beaten him out in '83 and Frank Thomas in '91 based on percentages, but considering position, he was absolutely there.

3) The streak does have value, at least it did through the first 10 years where he was very consistent offensively. Imagine an entire organization that does not have to deal with even finding a short term replacement at SS for 10 years.

4) In my opinion, he was very underrated defensively. I believe he set the American League record for assists and total chances in a season in '84, and when he produced only 3 errors in '91, he cut the previous record (7) more than in half. His 13 errors over two years was also the record. Truthfully, no one thought that a SS could field 99% for a season at that time. The problem is that he was not flashy. He did not make the leaping or diving catches that Ozzie Smith did, but he still, simply made more defensive plays than any other SS in the American League for 10+ years. Much of it was due to the fact that he studied where to position himself for each batter on the other team. Another was that while his lateral movement was average, he was fantastic at charging balls, and he had the best SS arm in the game-in fact, Ozzie Smith missed plays because his arm was not strong enough, but you don't get credited with an error for having a weak throw. Ripken could play back 2 steps because he could charge so well, and his arm was a cannon. If people had realized the quality minus the flash at SS earlier, he could have won 10 straight gold gloves.

As a hitter, he was streaky from week to week and season to season. He had to have changed his stance 10 times in his career. He also had holes in his swing-you could get him out. All in all, I'd say that his first 10 year value was awesome. For ten years, he made the most plays and produced the most offensively among SS, while playing the most critical defensive position in the game every day, almost every inning.

His second 10 years, he was a dead average offensive player all around, but still playing defense well at positions that are tough to man, and still being prone to hot streaks. He played back to back full seasons every game at third base, and that provides intrinsic value for an organization.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

ROY - voted on
2 Time MVP - voted on
400+ HRs - 11551 AB and 26.8 AB/HR
3,000+ hits - 11551 AB
2 time gold glove - thats all?
8 time silver slugger - big whoop
Too many All-Stars to count - voted on. Can't use this for anything imo.
He pretty much revolutionized the position - you never saw a 6'4" guy play SS - credit for that now?

Played in one city, has a good guy image, and has the streak. Over-rated imo.

[TheJourneyman]

Played in one city, has a good guy image, and has the streak. Over-rated imo.

Like you said - in your opinion.
I happen to feel otherwise and I have a feeling a lot of sportswriters will too. You say he is over-rated. Why?
Do you think he should not be in the Hall? if so, why?

[Fuzzy Bear]

I agree with you on the All-Star is a popularity contest but I think the voters take that into consideration atleast a little bit. That was why it was listed.

As I recall, there were years at the end where Ripken really wasn't an All-Star. There were also years in the late 1980s where Ripken seemed to be a reluctant selection, sometimes picked by the MANAGER and not by the fans.

Truly, though, while I think Ripken and his streak are both overrated, he is one of the five greatest shortstops ever (maybe #2). Given his accomplishments, there would be no precedent to keep him out of the HOF if he were a corner outfielder without the streak and without the MVPs.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Like you said - in your opinion.
I happen to feel otherwise and I have a feeling a lot of sportswriters will too. You say he is over-rated. Why?
Do you think he should not be in the Hall? if so, why?

I just don't care for the guy and his squeaky clean image. Those type of guys (Puckett comes to mind) are generally not as "good" as they are portrayed, and the ones you think are absolute jerks are generally not as "evil" as they are portrayed imo. I still think he's a HOFer, but by no means a first tier HOFer without the streak and pretty image. He was good, very good, good, and average though is career, and his counting stats look pretty damn impressive thanks to over 11,500 AB.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I just don't care for the guy and his squeaky clean image. Those type of guys (Puckett comes to mind) are generally not as "good" as they are portrayed, and the ones you think are absolute jerks are generally not as "evil" as they are portrayed imo. I still think he's a HOFer, but by no means a first tier HOFer without the streak and pretty image. He was good, very good, good, and average though is career, and his counting stats look pretty damn impressive thanks to over 11,500 AB.

Athletes' jobs is to be role models, whether they like it or not. If they aren't going to be role models, then we really don't need sports to take up the space in our everyday consciousness that it does.

Better a Cal Ripken than a Milton Bradley or a Steve Howe.

[J W]

Ripken does seem at times to be cut from the same cloth as DiMaggio, Jeter, A-Rod, etc... guys who aren't saints but just don't let their dark side out in public, out of respect for their image as role-models. I think it's an admirable quality.

- Ripken famously requested to stay in a separate hotel from his teammates for years.
- There were allegations of cheating with women that I can't remember the specifics of (anyone help me out?).
- There have been Orioles personnel moves in the past attributed to Cal getting his way... BUT, there is also a rumor that Peter Angelos leaked this information falsely to smear Cal's image a bit.
- He was a drunk jerk to someone my half-brother knew who was in the police one time.

That's all the dirt I know about him... not much really, for a superstar.

[dl4060]

Long career with some great moments. I think he should go in, but I do not look at him as highly as many do. There was a long period of time when he seemed to me to be just a good player.

[J W]

4) In my opinion, he was very underrated defensively. I believe he set the American League record for assists and total chances in a season in '84, and when he produced only 3 errors in '91, he cut the previous record (7) more than in half. His 13 errors over two years was also the record. Truthfully, no one thought that a SS could field 99% for a season at that time. The problem is that he was not flashy. He did not make the leaping or diving catches that Ozzie Smith did, but he still, simply made more defensive plays than any other SS in the American League for 10+ years. Much of it was due to the fact that he studied where to position himself for each batter on the other team. Another was that while his lateral movement was average, he was fantastic at charging balls, and he had the best SS arm in the game-in fact, Ozzie Smith missed plays because his arm was not strong enough, but you don't get credited with an error for having a weak throw. Ripken could play back 2 steps because he could charge so well, and his arm was a cannon. If people had realized the quality minus the flash at SS earlier, he could have won 10 straight gold gloves.

Great points Brett (and your evaluation as a whole is spot-on; I'd be repeating you if I typed anything).

Ask the writers and sportscasters who covered him... Tim Kurkjian... Jon Miller... Buster Olney... Ken Rosenthal... they'll tell you the guy was as solid as it comes defensively at SS. It was a different approach than had ever been done--taking a 6'4" third baseman with a cannon-arm and plugging him in the SS hole. But Ripken had the baseball head to pull it off.

Even today you don't really have many Ripken-type SS... and A-Rod already switched to 3B. Garciaparra's at 1B. In fact, are there any Ripken-esque SS left? Yes; upon looking Derek Jeter is 6'3" but he never had Ripken's arm nor his positioning--and many sabermetric people are screaming for a position change.

[yest]

100 RBIs 4 times
100 runs 3 times
hit 300 5 times
most doubles once
most runs once
most hits once
most SS putouts 6 times
most SS assists 7 times
most SS double plays 7 times
led in Fielding% 4 times

[J W]

Saying he was a .276 hitter and then tossing his hitting aside is completely ludicrous. He hit for great power from SS. His 113 OPS+ from shortstop, with that long a career, is good enough for enshrinement in itself. He won two MVPs, probably deserved three, I have him in the top 25 players of all time, and I don't give any extra streak credit either.

I don't know if Ripken's in my top 25 MLBers all-time because after Honus Wagner the drop is precipitous (pending A-Rod finishing his career)... but he's close enough and I certainly agree he's top 5 all-time at SS:

- Arky Vaughan had a shorter but better career. James rated Vaughan #2 all-time and he may be right.

- Joe Cronin hit an astounding .301/.390/.468... but in the Ruthian Era, that only translates to a 119 OPS+. The adjusted league-average OBP during his 20 years in Washington/Boston was .360! Still, he's got a good case to beat out Ripken.

- You'd have to take Ripken over Robin Yount, a similar OPS-man (albeit via a different approach) who only played half his games at SS.

- I take Ripken over Ernie Banks in a similar vein... both Yount and Banks were excellent defenders at SS but ended up changing positions anyway. As a 1B Banks really wasn't anything special aside from his glove.

- Ripken just outlasted Alan Trammell and Barry Larkin, who btw should both be HOFers in their own right.

- I'd take Ripken over Ozzie Smith any day.

...so, that should place Ripken anywhere from #2 to #5 all-time, not counting NLers.

[538280]

I don't know if Ripken's in my top 25 MLBers all-time because after Honus Wagner the drop is precipitous (pending A-Rod finishing his career)... but he's close enough and I certainly agree he's top 5 all-time at SS:

- Arky Vaughan had a shorter but better career. James rated Vaughan #2 all-time and he may be right.

Vaughan was better while he was playing. Unfortunately he didn't play for long and played against much weaker competition. I'm a huge Vaughan fan, I have him #27, but I do not consider him better than Ripken.

James' system has Vaughan ahead of Ripken simply because it places WAY too much emphasis on peak value vs. career value. His system always underrates guys who last a long time, and will overrate short brilliant careers. Ripken of course had legendary longevity, and had three years when he was the best player in baseball. He also had about five more years where he was a legit superstar. That's the mark of a top 50 player at least.

- Joe Cronin hit an astounding .301/.390/.468... but in the Ruthian Era, that only translates to a 119 OPS+. The adjusted league-average OBP during his 20 years in Washington/Boston was .360! Still, he's got a good case to beat out Ripken.

I don't see it. That OPS+ is only 9 points' higher than Cal's, and he did it while playing 900 less games in a much weaker league. In addition, Ripken had three years over 140 OPS+, a level at which Cronin never got to over a full season. Ripken is the VERY easy choice IMO.

- You'd have to take Ripken over Robin Yount, a similar OPS-man (albeit via a different approach) who only played half his games at SS.

Absolutely.

- I take Ripken over Ernie Banks in a similar vein... both Yount and Banks were excellent defenders at SS but ended up changing positions anyway. As a 1B Banks really wasn't anything special aside from his glove.

Agreed that Banks was a subpar 1B. 115 OPS+ is about average for a 1B, Banks was usually a bit under that. At first he was probably a below average player. At short he had some awesome years, but when adjusting for league and park context they really weren't any better than Ripken's best years. Ripken was better defensively as well. Ripken again the VERY easy choice.

- Ripken just outlasted Alan Trammell and Barry Larkin, who btw should both be HOFers in their own right.

They should be, but I can't see how you can have either one ahead of Ripken. Their hitting is about the same, Ripken outlasted them by a ton and had much more durability than especially Larkin.

- I'd take Ripken over Ozzie Smith any day.

So would I.

...so, that should place Ripken anywhere from #2 to #5 all-time, not counting NLers.

I have Ripken the #2 ML shortstop, and it's not particularly close either. His closest rival is Vaughan, but even he comes up about 20 points short in my system.

[538280]

I just don't care for the guy and his squeaky clean image. Those type of guys (Puckett comes to mind) are generally not as "good" as they are portrayed, and the ones you think are absolute jerks are generally not as "evil" as they are portrayed imo. I still think he's a HOFer, but by no means a first tier HOFer without the streak and pretty image. He was good, very good, good, and average though is career, and his counting stats look pretty damn impressive thanks to over 11,500 AB.

Wow, you really seem to have a bone to pick about Cal. I'd like for you, Sultan, to try to make a case for Ripken anywhere below the #5 ML SS (top five in a position is absolute top tier HOF). To say he's not a top tier HOF IMO is completely ludicrous.