Managers and GMs who belong in the Hall (or already are)

[Fuzzy Bear]

I'll begin by asking one question -Why is Dick Williams still waiting for the call?
Others I might consider are Billy Southworth, Ralph Houk, and Billy Martin. But the one I definitely would put in is Williams.
Active managers who one day will get the call are Joe Torre, Bobby Cox, and Tony Larussa.

Williams and Southworth are now in.

Williams was the Ron Santo of managers; his election ended an injustice.

Torre, Cox, and LaRussa are all active; I expect all of them to be inducted.

I consider Houk to be more HOF-worthy than a number of managers in the HOF (including Southworth). I consider Danny Murtaugh to be the most HOF-worthy manager not yet inducted.

[RuthMayBond]

Williams and Southworth are now in.

Williams was the Ron Santo of managers; his election ended an injustice.

Torre, Cox, and LaRussa are all active; I expect all of them to be inducted.

I consider Houk to be more HOF-worthy than a number of managers in the HOF (including Southworth).

Absolutely agree with you up to here

<I consider Danny Murtaugh to be the most HOF-worthy manager not yet inducted.>

Nah, I could think of several guys ahead of him

[Fuzzy Bear]

Gil Hodges? He was not named to the "Managers" ballot in 2008, but was named to the Post-WWII Players ballot in 2009. According to the Veterans Committee rules, voters should consider Hodges' managing career in their deliberations.

Such a consideration might push Hodges over the top.

Hodges did very well in BBWAA balloting. He was considered a star in his own time. He's about the same as Jim Rice on career value, and Rice is in the HOF ().

At a certain level, if Rice, why not Hodges? I know the downward slide that starts with such logic, but Hodges' backers have a semi-valid point.

[Brad Harris]

I consider Houk to be more HOF-worthy than a number of managers in the HOF (including Southworth). I consider Danny Murtaugh to be the most HOF-worthy manager not yet inducted.

Murtaugh was an outstanding manager, but what is often forgotten about Whitey Herzog was his experience as Director of Player Development for the Miracle Mets (1967-1972) and his stints as a General Manager (Cardinals 1980-82, Angels 1993-94).

Herzog was the man most responsible for the development of the talent that won the 1969 World Championship and saw the playoffs again in 1973. He alone was responsible for assembling the base of those Cardinal teams that took "Whiteyball" to new heights. And Herzog is responsible to laying the foundation of those Angels division winners in the late 90's.

Besides winning three Manager of the Year Awards, Herzog was named "Manager of the Decade" by Sports Illustrated at the end of the Eighties (over Tommy Lasorda, Sparky Anderson, Tony LaRussa among others). Herzog was also a recipient of the Executive of the Year Award.

So in addition to his nearly 1,300 wins, six division titles, three pennants and one World Championship, his awards and accolades as a successful and innovative field manager, Whitey Herzog helped nurse the talent on great teams for the Mets and Angels as well as the Royals and Cardinals.

In terms of an overall contribution, I think that ought to settle any argument between him and Murtaugh (who I have ranked second on my own list of eligible managers.)

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Haven't read most of the thread so not sure if he's been mentioned, but Pat Gillick should be considered. He was the archetect of the Blue Jays 2 WS titles as well as the Phillies WS championship last year. Very shrewd evaluator of talent and fantastic at putting a club together.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Murtaugh was an outstanding manager, but what is often forgotten about Whitey Herzog was his experience as Director of Player Development for the Miracle Mets (1967-1972) and his stints as a General Manager (Cardinals 1980-82, Angels 1993-94).

Herzog was the man most responsible for the development of the talent that won the 1969 World Championship and saw the playoffs again in 1973. He alone was responsible for assembling the base of those Cardinal teams that took "Whiteyball" to new heights. And Herzog is responsible to laying the foundation of those Angels division winners in the late 90's.

Besides winning three Manager of the Year Awards, Herzog was named "Manager of the Decade" by Sports Illustrated at the end of the Eighties (over Tommy Lasorda, Sparky Anderson, Tony LaRussa among others). Herzog was also a recipient of the Executive of the Year Award.

So in addition to his nearly 1,300 wins, six division titles, three pennants and one World Championship, his awards and accolades as a successful and innovative field manager, Whitey Herzog helped nurse the talent on great teams for the Mets and Angels as well as the Royals and Cardinals.

In terms of an overall contribution, I think that ought to settle any argument between him and Murtaugh (who I have ranked second on my own list of eligible managers.)

I confess that Murtaugh is a personal favorite for me. Herzog should rate ahead of him, and I'm surprised he hasn't been selected for induction yet.

Murtaugh is a guy who's been forgotten. Unconscionably so, IMO.

[Brad Harris]

[Pat] Gillick is an interesting candidate, in that he's employed by the Phillies as an "advisor." If he's considered "retired," he would be eligible for the 2010 ballot and a strong contender among executives. He is an executive I support.

I tripped over the following article today. The portion relevant to this discussion:

The Phillies were the fourth team for which Pat Gillick was a general manager. Two of the teams -- the Phillies and Blue Jays -- won a combined three World Series championships. Two other teams -- the Orioles and Mariners -- went wire-to-wire in first place (the Orioles in 1997 won 98 games, and the Mariners in 2001 won 116 games). Even back in the '80s, Gillick understood the importance of young players. He'd make deals in August for potential free agents, trying to load up with draft picks. He even personally flew to Sao Paulo, Brazil, to scout a pitcher. He loved the Rule V Draft, and found players like George Bell, Jim Acker, Kelly Gruber and Manny Lee in that minor league draft. When he was the Blue Jays' GM, players were reluctant to sign as free agents in Toronto; in fact, Ken Dayley was their first major free-agent signing. So Gillick tried to keep the scouting and development pipeline rolling.

[Paul Wendt]

At the top of this page Fuzzy Bear plunks for Houk and Murtaugh. RuthMayBond agrees on Houk (ahead of Southworth too) but doesn't like Murtaugh.

FB returned to Houk and Murtaugh in a "Current managers" thread this week.

Pinella's work with the 1990 Reds was one of the most impressive jobs of managing I have ever seen. He won, and won impressively, beating more talented teams in the process, and flat out HUMILIATING LaRussa's A's to win it all in the WS. If Pinella had won the pennant with the Cubs last year, let alone with the Mariners, he well may have redeemed himself. As of now, I really can't see why he should go in and not Ralph Houk or Danny Murtaugh.

I agree with you that Houk and Murtaugh's inductions are overdue. Perhaps they ought to be ahead of Piniella too. They both have two WS wins to his one.

Houk's career was just a little shorter than Piniella's, and he didn't have many real high points after his early run with the Mantle-Maris Yankees, though as has been pointed out they usually played above their talent level.

Murtaugh's career was much shorter than the others (mostly due to poor health and premature death), but his winning percentage was better...his teams in the 1970's were always strong.

I don't know where I'd put Piniella in relation to those two, but I think they're all well over the line.

This prompted me to look at when the Hall of Fame managers worked, wondering in particular how much recognition the selectors have lavished on Houk and Murtaugh's time relative to other times.

[Paul Wendt]

begin at #58
(moved here from current managers)


Annual number of games worked by all HOF managers

more than 1000 games - at least seven teams
1926, 28-29, 40-42

500 to 1000 games
1902-05, 14-56 (except 26, 28-29, 40-42, 47), 68-80, 82, 85-86

fewer than 500 games - no more than three full-season teams
before 1901 and 1906-13, 47, 57-67, 81, 83-84, 87 to date

During the 1957-67 trough, Hall of Fame managers handled three teams per season except 1961 and 1966, only two. Seven of Murtaugh's 12 full seasons and two of his three part seasons fall within that time.

During the early 20th century trough, 1906-13, HOF players Frank Chance, Fred Clarke, and Hugh Jennings were usually handling three teams; HOF executive Clark Griffith was usually handling another. There is no 19th century trough either, considering that Harry Wright (HOF pioneer) and Charlie Comiskey (HOF executive) are not counted here --nor are Anson and other HOF players.

Cox, LaRussa, and Torre make at least four HOF managers every season 1968-96 and three since then.


1950-1969 in detail

Here is a closer look at the 1950s and 1960s which include the only notable trough in recognition of managers by the Hall of Fame.

bold marks 1957 to 1967, the time of two or three HOF managers.

x Mack to 1950
x McCarthy to 1950
xx Southworth to 1951
xxxxxxx Harris to 1956
xxxxxxxxxxx_xxxx____ Stengel
xxxxxx_________xxxx Durocher
_xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx__xx Lopez
____xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Alston
1967 Williams debut
1968 Weaver debut

Hall of Fame player Red Schoendienst managed the St Louis Cardinals 1965-76. He may be our best example "player" since Frank Chance who is recognized partly for his work as manager.

1961 was Casey Stengel's year off. HOF player Joe Gordon led the Kansas City Athletics for 60 games, which I judge to be no part of his HOF resume. Beside Danny Murtaugh some of the 1961 managers with long careers were Alvin Dark, Charlie Dressen, Ralph Houk, Gene Mauch, Bill Rigney, and Paul Richards.

[Paul Wendt]

begin at #58
(moved here from current managers)


Hall of Fame managers
21 pennants, fifteen in the 1950s and six in the 1960s

9, Stengel 1950-53, 55-58, 60
2, Durocher 1951, 54
2, Lopez 1954, 1959
6, Alston 1955-56, 59, 63, 65-66
1, Williams 1967
1, Weaver 1969

none - Mack, McCarthy, Southworth, Harris


other Hall of Famers
3 pennants

1, Berra 1964 (also 1973)
2, Schoendienst 1967-68


not in the Hall of Fame
16 pennants

1, Eddie Sawyer 1950
2, Charlie Dressen 1952-53
2, Fred Haney 1957-58
1, Danny Murtaugh 1960 (also 1971)
1, Fred Hutchinson 1961
3, Ralph Houk 1961-63
1, Alvin Dark 1962 (also 1974)
1, Johnny Keane 1964
1, Sam Mele 1965
1, Hank Bauer 1966
1, Mayo Smith 1968
1, Gil Hodges 1969


Open questions:
How does this time period compare with other times by the numbers of pennant winners represented in the Hall of Fame?

[Paul Wendt]

Steve O'Neill (at baseball-reference) managed four good teams to good records, always above .500 in fourteen seasons 1935-1954. He may be the strongest candidate Manager from the 1890s to 1950s.
--later if you are a Murtaugh and Houk naysayer.

O'Neill played 1500 games as a catcher including 1200 in ten seasons 1915-24 when 120 games was unusual and 100 was not routine. He was a strong batter for about five season during the middle of that span.

[Brad Harris]

As for GMs, does anyone have any thoughts on the following candidates:
- Buzzie Bavasi
- Al Campanis
- Bing Devine
- Pat Gillick
- Bob Howsama

As far as ineligible candidates go, what kind of case has Dave Dombrowski built?

[Paul Wendt]

Note, GMs stand for election to the "Pioneers and Executives" or Executives category. They are considered by the same committee, on the same ballot, as Bowie Kuhn (elected for 2008), Barney Dreyfuss (elected for 2008), and Marvin Miller (also ran for 2008).

Field Managers and Umpires are considered on the same ballot by another committee.

--
Interesting on several points
: 3 December 2007 Associated Press coverage of that morning's meetings and elections

- Selig 'has been one of the most vocal supporters of Miller's candidacy' and he expressed surprise at Miller's defeat.

- Killebrew, 'on the panel that considered Miller, said he was limited because he could only vote for four of the 10 candidates. "Everybody on that list deserved to be there."'. That's John Fetzer and John McHale!