Sam Rice

[DoubleX]

Sam Rice is someone I know very little about yet am very intrigued by. So instead of shuffling over to my bookshelf or doing some Google searches, I thought I'd open this up you fine and informed folk.

What intrigues me about Rice is that on one hand he has a pretty unimpressive OPS+, especially for a Hall of Fame corner OFer, but on the other hand, he managed to rack up 2987 hits despite playing only one full season before age 29. To garner that many hits after such a late start really impresses me. He also appears to have been a pretty good baserunner (351 career SBs), and was a good hitter for average, even by the inflated standards of that era. I'm further intrigued by the fact that he remained very consistent into his early 40s, hitting as high .349 at age 40 and .310 at age 41 (before being a part-timer for three more years, but still a decent hitter for average).

It also appears that he didn't walk much, but he also didn't strikeout much - averaging just 19 strikeouts per 162 games! That's incredible. Between the very low strikeouts and the high hit totals, I'm getting a picture of a guy that was just great at making contact.

I also notice that he made a few pitching appearances at ages 25 and 26 - so is the like a Lefty O'Doul case? A pitcher gets converted to a hitter in his mid/late 20s?

Also, given his high hit total despite such a late start, it makes me wonder how many hits he could have racked had he got going earlier (his SB totals would have been much higher). Is it realistic to think that had he started in his early 20s, he could have challenged 4000 hits?

[JRB]

Sam Rice is someone I know very little about yet am very intrigued by. So instead of shuffling over to my bookshelf or doing some Google searches, I thought I'd open this up you fine and informed folk.

What intrigues me about Rice is that on one hand he has a pretty unimpressive OPS+, especially for a Hall of Fame corner OFer, but on the other hand, he managed to rack up 2987 hits despite playing only one full season before age 29. To garner that many hits after such a late start really impresses me. He also appears to have been a pretty good baserunner (351 career SBs), and was a good hitter for average, even by the inflated standards of that era. I'm further intrigued by the fact that he remained very consistent into his early 40s, hitting as high .349 at age 40 and .310 at age 41 (before being a part-timer for three more years, but still a decent hitter for average).

It also appears that he didn't walk much, but he also didn't strikeout much - averaging just 19 strikeouts per 162 games! That's incredible. Between the very low strikeouts and the high hit totals, I'm getting a picture of a guy that was just great at making contact.

I also notice that he made a few pitching appearances at ages 25 and 26 - so is the like a Lefty O'Doul case? A pitcher gets converted to a hitter in his mid/late 20s?

Also, given his high hit total despite such a late start, it makes me wonder how many hits he could have racked had he got going earlier (his SB totals would have been much higher). Is it realistic to think that had he started in his early 20s, he could have challenged 4000 hits?

Thanks for mentioning Sam Rice, I think he is one of the most interesting players in baseball history. My understanding is that the reason he got off to such a late start was due to a monumental personal tragedy. In 1912, while he was away from home playing minor league baseball, a cyclone hit his family home killing his wife, their two young children, his mother, his father, and his two sisters. Apparently after that he became a drifter doing odd jobs such as working is a whisky distillery, as a railroad worker, and as a farm hand. He eventually joined the U.S. Navy and was involved in the Naval action at Vera Cruz prior to America's entry into World War I. On the one hand it could be that the delay in the start of his career greatly hurt his accumulated stats, however it could also be that the hard work and rough struggle he had after the tragedy toughened him into the outstanding player he turned out to be. It is probably too speculative to ever know. His controversial catch in the world series where he robbed a player (I can't recall the name at the moment) of a homerun in the World Series has long been one of the great baseball anecdotes.

He had hardly any homerun power, and he didn't walk very much which accounts for his not overly impressive OPS+ number. However, his lifetime batting average is excellent, .322, and he got a lot of doubles and triples. In one ten year stretch he averaged 13.7 triples and 35.2 doubles a year. As you pointed out, he hardly ever struck out. He seems to have been a very good baserunner, and good defensive player, so I think he greatly deserves his place in the HOF. I think he is the umpteenth example of another outstanding player from yesteryear who doesn't seem that impressive when applying certain retroactive statsitical standards. The OPS+ stat doesn't give players, such as Rice and Sisler. credit for their low strikeout totals. To me, not striking out much means that quite often the player was advancing the runner (s) on base (such as moving the runner from second to third on groundouts, etc) even though he made out. I know a lot of people here disagree with me, but I think stats such as OPS+ reward people who have the skill to draw walks, but don't adequately reward some of the oldtime players who have a slightly different set of skills. c JRB

[EvanAparra]

Thanks for mentioning Sam Rice, I think he is one of the most interesting players in baseball history. My understanding is that the reason he got off to such a late start was due to a monumental personal tragedy. In 1912, while he was away from home playing minor league baseball, a cyclone hit his family home killing his wife, their two young children, his mother, his father, and his two sisters. Apparently after that he became a drifter doing odd jobs such as working is a whisky distillery, as a railroad worker, and as a farm hand. He eventually joined the U.S. Navy and was involved in the Naval action at Vera Cruz prior to America's entry into World War I. On the one hand it could be that the delay in the start of his career greatly hurt his accumulated stats, however it could also be that the hard work and rough struggle he had after the tragedy toughened him into the outstanding player he turned out to be. It is probably too speculative to ever know. His controversial catch in the world series where he robbed a player (I can't recall the name at the moment) of a homerun in the World Series has long been one of the great baseball anecdotes.

Thanks for the info, JRB. I had never heard this story before. I like him for the hall, i wish he would have had an entire career to play out.

[LouGehrig]

For many years, it was a shameful act to strike out. It was a different game when Rice played, and the more I think about it, when one recognizes all the variables that CANNOT be controlled, valid comparisons using only statistics cannot be made.

One must read FIRST HAND accounts of games and attempt to draw some conclusions that might approach validity.

[Ubiquitous]

Rice thread 1

Rice thread 2

[DoubleX]

Rice thread 1

Rice thread 2

Well it's been 15 months since the last thread.

In these three threads combined, there are total of just 31 posts - I guess there really isn't much interest on here in Sam Rice. I've gotten the impression that many feel that he is close to the bottom of Hall of Famers, and I'm not sure I see it.

[JRB]

Ubiquitous;

Thanks for posting those old threads. It's interesting how some of the details of Rice's tragedy can change depending on who's telling it. I had read an old article from one of the local newspapers in the area near where it happened which indicated that the the family had died in a cyclone, while I see it is described in other places as a tornado.

The more one reads about Rice the more it seems likely that his story was the inspiration for the Roy Hobbs character in the story upon which the movie "The Natural" is based, with some of the main differences being that they changed the nature of his early tragedy and made Hobbs into more of a power hitter instead of the singles/doubles/triples type of hitter which was Rice. c JRB

[Ubiquitous]

The book "The Natural" was loosely based on a lot of different baseball stories and I have even heard on the King Arthur tale.


I believe cyclone and tornado are one in the same. Probably tornado is the more modern way to say it.

[leecemark]

--Well mostly singles. I see Rice as an earlier and not quite as good version of Ichiro. His major league career started lately due to other cirucmstances, but they have that in common and both piled up huge hit totals in spite of it. Both were also speedy, high average RFers who didn't deliever the power one traditionally likes to see from that position. Both also got their high hits totals in part because they were not interested in taking a base on balls, giving them more AB than most players would in the same number of PA.
--Ichiro is the clearly better version though. He has won 2 batting titles and been in the running most years. Rice was a notch behind the elite hitters of his day. Also, while Rice was apparently a good defender, he did not get the accolades Ichiro (deservedly) does.

[Ubiquitous]

Thread on the natural

[DoubleX]

--Well mostly singles. I see Rice as an earlier and not quite as good version of Ichiro. His major league career started lately due to other cirucmstances, but they have that in common and both piled up huge hit totals in spite of it. Both were also speedy, high average RFers who didn't deliever the power one traditionally likes to see from that position. Both also got their high hits totals in part because they were not interested in taking a base on balls, giving them more AB than most players would in the same number of PA.
--Ichiro is the clearly better version though. He has won 2 batting titles and been in the running most years. Rice was a notch behind the elite hitters of his day. Also, while Rice was apparently a good defender, he did not get the accolades Ichiro (deservedly) does.

How do you feel about Rice being a Hall of Famer?

[ElHalo]

Well it's been 15 months since the last thread.

In these three threads combined, there are total of just 31 posts - I guess there really isn't much interest on here in Sam Rice. I've gotten the impression that many feel that he is close to the bottom of Hall of Famers, and I'm not sure I see it.

As I'm sure you're aware, I'm probably the biggest Sam Rice fan around. In my opinion, if his family hadn't died so tragically, he'd probably be the all time hit leader.

In my opinion, he's one of the top 5 players in baseball history from age 30 on. His ranks from that age:

Third in R
Second in H
Third in TB
Third in 2B
First in 3B
Seventh in RC
Fourth in ToB

Mark says he's similar to Ichiro with less defense; that's probably a pretty fair comparison, but I'd probably go with Tony Gwynn, with a solid chunk of contact hitting traded for a solid chunk of health.

As a HoF'er, he's a no-brainer. He probably ranks just a hair outside the top ten RF's of all time.

[leecemark]

--He wouldn't have got my vote.

[JRB]

--He wouldn't have got my vote.

The guy gets his whole family wiped out by a cyclone, and you have to go and say a thing like that. Talk about kicking a guy when he's down.

[DoubleX]

The guy gets his whole family wiped out by a cyclone, and you have to go and say a thing like that. Talk about kicking a guy when he's down.

I think Rice's personal tragedy and Rice's Hall of Fame credentials are mutually exclusive. Perhaps some consideration can be given to the fact that Rice persevered in spite of the personal tragedy (but then again, it may have been the personal tragedy that motivated him to be the player he was). It's extremely unfortunate what happened to him (personally, I cannot fathom recovering from such tremendous personal devastation), but Rice is in the Hall because of what he did in baseball. It tragedy were a major factor, then I suspect someone like Ray Chapman could find himself in the Hall.

[JRB]

DOUBLE X:

It was meant to be tongue in cheek. Otherwise, we'd need to include Don Hoak and Dick Brown as well.

[JRB]

Does anyone have any quotes from Walter Johnson about Sam Rice? Rice and Johnson were teammates for a number of years. Johnson was very perceptive in his obervations so it would be interesting to hear what he had to say about Rice.

[EvanAparra]

The most famous moment in Sam Rice's career came in defense. During game three of the 1925 World Series, the Senators were leading the game 4-3. In the bottom of the 8th inning, Sam Rice was moved from center field to right field. With two outs in the bottom of the inning, Earl Smith drove a ball to right-center field. Rice ran down the ball and appeared to catch the ball at the fence, potentially robbing Smith of a home run that would have tied the game. After the catch, Rice toppled over the top of the fence and into the stands, disappearing out of sight. When Rice reappeared, he had the ball in his glove and the umpire called the batter out.

This caused great controversy on whether Rice actually caught the ball and whether he kept possession of the ball the entire time. Rice himself would not tell, only answering: "The umpire called him out," when asked. He turned down offers from magazines to pay him for the story, but Rice would turn them down, saying: "I don't need the money. The mystery is more fun." He would not even tell his wife or his daughter.

The controversy became so great that Rice wrote a letter to be opened upon his death. After Sam died, the letter was opened and it contained Rice's account of what happened. At the end of the letter, he wrote: "At no time did I lose possession of the ball."

[KCGHOST]

Sam Rice was a fine player, but not much more than that. He probably doesn't rank in the top 20 of any serious ranking of RFers, unless hit total is all you care about. A good defender at a position where defense is not highly valued nor is it required (relative to other positions). A very narginally Hofer, if not a mistake. The truth of it is that despite playing longer he was less productive than Ken Singleton.

[ScottCross]

My understanding is that the reason he got off to such a late start was due to a monumental personal tragedy. In 1912, while he was away from home playing minor league baseball, a cyclone hit his family home killing his wife, their two young children, his mother, his father, and his two sisters.

There seems to be some dispute concerning the tornado deaths in 1912. I can confirm that they devasted Sam Rice's life, he was my grandfather's brother-in-law and good friend. My grandfather, Harold Cross, was married to Mabel Rice, Sam's sister. Harold and Sam were playing in the "Pony League" (as my grandfather used to call it) and were away at a game that day. The tornado hit the family farm and also killed Mabel Rice Cross. My grandfather lost track of Sam after the funerals. My grandfather remarried in 1920 and had three children. When he was on his death bed in 1975, he made my father and uncle swear that they would bury him next to Mabel Rice, his first wife. It created quite a controversey in the family, but he threatened to come back and haunt them if they didn't. He's buried next to Mabel in Concord Cemetery, Iroquois County, Illinois.

Scott Cross

[ScottCross]

I pulled out my research notes on my family and have some more details concerning Sam Rice. As most of you know, he was born February 20, 1890 as Edgar Charles Rice near Morocco in Kentland Township, Indiana. He did not get the nickname Sam until much later. He did not grow up in the mill town, as some have speculated, but was raised on his parent’s farm. His parents were Chares and Louisa Christine Newmyre Rice. Sam had four younger sisters: Mabel (my grandfather’s first wife); Gertrude; Genevieve; and Bernadine. The family moved to Iroquois County, Illinois prior to 1910. Sam married Beulah Stam about 1908 and they had two children: Bernie born in 1909 and Adelma Ethel Rice, born in 1910. That same year, Sam was living in Watseka, Illinois and was working as a day laborer while playing baseball in the Pony League. My grandfather, Harold Cross played on the same team as he and may have also worked with him, since he and my great-grandfather had a construction company there. Not only were they good friends, but were also brothers-in-law. Harold and Sam were playing a game in Galesburg, Illinois that fateful day. The women (Mabel Rice Cross, Beulah Rice and her two children) decided to leave Watseka and spend the weekend out at the family farm. As has been noted in a previous post, The cyclone hit the house and killed or fatally injured everyone. Killed were Sam’s parents: Charles and Louisa; Sam’s two younger sisters: Genevieve age nine; Bernadine age eight; and Mabel Rice Cross age seventeen (she and my grandfather had just been married): Sam’s wife Beulah and their two children: Bernie age three and Adelma Ethel age two. I don’t have any information on the hired hand, but James Chaney was working for Sam’s father in 1910. I know my grandfather was devastated by the loss of his young wife, but he remained in Watseka and remarried after serving in World War I. Sam enlisted in the US Navy within a year of the disaster and served until 1915. I think he only came back to Watseka once after he left. I have heard this story since I was a child. I can also document everything in this post and I hope it clears up some of the confusion.

[Chisox]

Nice stories Scott. I hope you stay around and share some more. As co-moderator of the White Sox forum let me welcome you to Baseball-Fever.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Sam Rice was a fine player, but not much more than that. He probably doesn't rank in the top 20 of any serious ranking of RFers, unless hit total is all you care about. A good defender at a position where defense is not highly valued nor is it required (relative to other positions). A very narginally Hofer, if not a mistake. The truth of it is that despite playing longer he was less productive than Ken Singleton.

Rice would have made it to 3,000 hits had he played one more season. It has been speculated by Bill James, and possibly others, that the reason he retired is that there was no HOF and the 3,000 hit "milestone" wasn't meaningful at that time.

I don't think he's top 10, but he well may be top 20, or top 25.

[538280]

Rice would have made it to 3,000 hits had he played one more season. It has been speculated by Bill James, and possibly others, that the reason he retired is that there was no HOF and the 3,000 hit "milestone" wasn't meaningful at that time.

I don't think he's top 10, but he well may be top 20, or top 25.

I don't think he's close to top 20. I feel for his tragedy and he seems like a very interesting player but that doesn't mean he was a great or HOF one. He had a solid BA and that is about it from an offensive standpoint. He didn't walk all that much and had no power. He wasn't putting all that many runs on the scoreboard compared to what we would expect from a HOF caliber RFer. His SBs make him a little better but his offense is still lacking. I agree with KCGHOST that a player like Ken Singleton is going to do a lot more to help your team score runs and thus win the game. His defense was nice, but that's really just bonus points which can't really make up for his only okay offense. He's like a worse version of Ichiro.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

I agree- neither objective function nor modified objective function has Rice top 100. Neither does win-shares based above average. Neither does WARP. WARP2 ranks him #183. He's not ranked top 25 at his outfield position. How can he be top 20?