October 9th!

[DODGER DEB]

I never made the connection before today, but on October 9, 1957 Red Patterson, Dodger VP, made the official announcement that OUR DODGERS were being taken from US....for pure greed!

The connection I never made until today is this.....October 9th is the BIG "O's" birthday. So, I guess he decided that he would give himself a HUGE PRESENT, by tearing the hearts out of millions of BROOKLYN DODGER FANS!

It was not only the GREEDIEST act ever...it was also the most SELFISH!

c.

[MATHA531]

I know but really 9 October was only the date he chose to admit what he had decided to do as soon as he got off the plane bringing the team back from Japan in 1956 or perhaps when it was that he was entertaining the thieves from LALA land in his private box during the 1956 World Series.

As Ernie Harwell used to say in his home run call, they were long gone after that and nothing was going to stop it (except perhaps some intestinal fortitude on the part of one National League owner or the clown Commissioner of Baseball charged with protecting the best interests of baseball (protecting Babe Ruth's record of course was in the best interests of baseball, not protecting the fans of Brooklyn).

[Shotgun Shuba]

Yes, my goodness, this drives me crazy.
The Dodgers belong in Brooklyn.
I have often wondered if the furor would be as grand if the Dodgers STUNK when the move happened.
The generation that is most furious on this board never saw a bad Dodger team but I guess they would have loved them.
I would love to change history, I can't.
I would just love from this second on for this site to be about the BROOKLYN DODGERS, not about the move.
I was probably one of the worst offenders of digging up the past, I admit this, but I want to move on.
The Dodgers are never coming back, I guess the mature tact is to decide what need they filled and find some other way to fill it.
Kiss your wife, hug your kids or rejoice in the fact that 200 million dollars can't buy a trip to the ALCS.

[Dodgerfan1]

The connection I never made until today is this.....October 9th is the BIG "O's" birthday.

Today is Oscar Robertson's birthday?

[DODGER DEB]

Today is Oscar Robertson's birthday?

WHO is Oscar Robertson?

c.

[Dodgerfan1]

WHO is Oscar Robertson?

c.

Sorry Deb, guess I'm just in a squirrely mood tonight. The Big O, Oscar Robertson was an all-time great NBA player.

[DODGER DEB]

Sorry Deb, guess I'm just in a squirrely mood tonight. The Big O, Oscar Robertson was an all-time great NBA player.

Oh, I know that!

Just know that when you see the BIG "O" listed on this forum, at least in my posts, it refers to only one person...and we both know who that is...right?

c.

[DODGER DEB]

Yes, my goodness, this drives me crazy.
The Dodgers belong in Brooklyn.
I have often wondered if the furor would be as grand if the Dodgers STUNK when the move happened.
The generation that is most furious on this board never saw a bad Dodger team but I guess they would have loved them.
I would love to change history, I can't.
I would just love from this second on for this site to be about the BROOKLYN DODGERS, not about the move.
I was probably one of the worst offenders of digging up the past, I admit this, but I want to move on.
The Dodgers are never coming back, I guess the mature tact is to decide what need they filled and find some other way to fill it.
Kiss your wife, hug your kids or rejoice in the fact that 200 million dollars can't buy a trip to the ALCS.

Well, Shotgun, seeing that you feel so strongly about this issue, why don't you take the lead and post a few threads about OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS that you would like to see some discussion on?

I am sure the rest of US will gladly chime in!

c.

[MATHA531]

Yes, my goodness, this drives me crazy.
The Dodgers belong in Brooklyn.
I have often wondered if the furor would be as grand if the Dodgers STUNK when the move happened.
The generation that is most furious on this board never saw a bad Dodger team but I guess they would have loved them.
I would love to change history, I can't.
I would just love from this second on for this site to be about the BROOKLYN DODGERS, not about the move.
I was probably one of the worst offenders of digging up the past, I admit this, but I want to move on.
The Dodgers are never coming back, I guess the mature tact is to decide what need they filled and find some other way to fill it.
Kiss your wife, hug your kids or rejoice in the fact that 200 million dollars can't buy a trip to the ALCS.

We're going to have to live with this for a while; especially in the next year which marks 50 years since the treachery.

Shotgun...any discussion of the Brooklyn Dodgers of that era....well who led the National League in attendance for the 11 year period from 1947 - 1957? Who was the biggest money maker in the NL in that 11 year period?

I am a culprit also, I know it but I only make a habit of replying when the issue comes up...I don't start threads about it; not that there is anything wrong with that.

We constantly have visitors to this forum who just don't know, who just don't understand and it is our obligation, yours too, to remind them of what happened a half century ago and there is little question that fewer and fewer people are around who remember the Daffy Dodgers of the 30's (or were they the Robins?) and quite frankly I cannot tell anybody personally about the time somebody called a friend and was told there were three Dodger runniers on base and asked which one? I can't talk personally about the year the manager of the Giants (Bill Terry) said during the hot stove season in the 30's, "Is Brooklyn still in the League?" He found out when the Brooks knocked the Giants out of the pennant in the last series of the season; but unfortunately I wasn't there.

I could tell about the last days of the 1956 season when Brooklyn went into the final series 1 game behind Milwaukee, had the Friday night game in Brooklyn rained out against the Pirates, saw the Braves lose in St. Louis, sweep a double header on Saturday and you know what I remember best...in those days there weren't electronic score boards that listed the league sandings...the pennants of each team in the league were arranged in order of the standings starting in center field and goiong around the stands...and between games of the double header that Saturday afternoon when Brooklyn won to tie Milwaukee, they took the Milwaukee flag off the center field pole for the first place team and put the Brooklyn flag there...I remember the 2nd game of that double header when Jackie Robinson was called out on an absurd call at 2nd base and the umpires, led by Jocko Conlan, threatened to forfeit the game if the fans didn't stop throwing things on the field at them and waiving white handkerchiefs. I remember staying up that Saturday night listening to a recreation of the Brave game in St. Louis which Warren Spahn lost in the 14th inning 1-0 on a home run by Stan Musial.

I remember watching the Sunday game in Brooklyn when the Dodgers got off to a big early lead against Pittsburgh and Vin Scully, yes the same one, saying on television, "the Milwaukee Brave dugout must be a very quiet place right now." I remember the Pirates coming back a bit in the game only to be stymied by a great catch by Duke Snider against the black wall in center field allowing the Dodgers to go on to win that game and eliminate the Braves...little did I know what was to happen a year later.

Now aren't those great memories?

[musial6]

We're going to have to live with this for a while; especially in the next year which marks 50 years since the treachery.

Shotgun...any discussion of the Brooklyn Dodgers of that era....well who led the National League in attendance for the 11 year period from 1947 - 1957? Who was the biggest money maker in the NL in that 11 year period?

I am a culprit also, I know it but I only make a habit of replying when the issue comes up...I don't start threads about it; not that there is anything wrong with that.

We constantly have visitors to this forum who just don't know, who just don't understand and it is our obligation, yours too, to remind them of what happened a half century ago and there is little question that fewer and fewer people are around who remember the Daffy Dodgers of the 30's (or were they the Robins?) and quite frankly I cannot tell anybody personally about the time somebody called a friend and was told there were three Dodger runniers on base and asked which one? I can't talk personally about the year the manager of the Giants (Bill Terry) said during the hot stove season in the 30's, "Is Brooklyn still in the League?" He found out when the Brooks knocked the Giants out of the pennant in the last series of the season; but unfortunately I wasn't there.

I could tell about the last days of the 1956 season when Brooklyn went into the final series 1 game behind Milwaukee, had the Friday night game in Brooklyn rained out against the Pirates, saw the Braves lose in St. Louis, sweep a double header on Saturday and you know what I remember best...in those days there weren't electronic score boards that listed the league sandings...the pennants of each team in the league were arranged in order of the standings starting in center field and goiong around the stands...and between games of the double header that Saturday afternoon when Brooklyn won to tie Milwaukee, they took the Milwaukee flag off the center field pole for the first place team and put the Brooklyn flag there...I remember the 2nd game of that double header when Jackie Robinson was called out on an absurd call at 2nd base and the umpires, led by Jocko Conlan, threatened to forfeit the game if the fans didn't stop throwing things on the field at them and waiving white handkerchiefs. I remember staying up that Saturday night listening to a recreation of the Brave game in St. Louis which Warren Spahn lost in the 14th inning 1-0 on a home run by Stan Musial.

I remember watching the Sunday game in Brooklyn when the Dodgers got off to a big early lead against Pittsburgh and Vin Scully, yes the same one, saying on television, "the Milwaukee Brave dugout must be a very quiet place right now." I remember the Pirates coming back a bit in the game only to be stymied by a great catch by Duke Snider against the black wall in center field allowing the Dodgers to go on to win that game and eliminate the Braves...little did I know what was to happen a year later.

Now aren't those great memories?

Great memories, but slightly inaccurate. Musial didn't beat Spahn with a homer in the 14th inning. Kenny Boyer knocked in Musial with a double in the 12th to win the game. Bobby Del Greco had saved the game earlier for the Cards with a couple of fantastic catches in center. Incidentally, Spahnie left the mound in tears after Boyer's hit.

[MATHA531]

Great memories, but slightly inaccurate. Musial didn't beat Spahn with a homer in the 14th inning. Kenny Boyer knocked in Musial with a double in the 12th to win the game. Bobby Del Greco had saved the game earlier for the Cards with a couple of fantastic catches in center. Incidentally, Spahnie left the mound in tears after Boyer's hit.

Thanks....wow that must have been some great game for you to remember it since it really meant nothing to the Cards.

BTW during that time, the Dodgers playing at Ebbets Field were considered lethal against left handed starters and for all his greatness, often times the Braves would not start Spahn in games played in Brooklyn...one small blemish in a Hall of Fame career for the great Braves southpaw!

[Shotgun Shuba]

Well, Shotgun, seeing that you feel so strongly about this issue, why don't you take the lead and post a few threads about OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS that you would like to see some discussion on?

I am sure the rest of US will gladly chime in!

c.

Oh, I will. Just as soon as I can think of something. So be prepared.
I wonder if people would be interested in an Arky Vaughn thread?

[EbtsFldGuy]

` Why do we keep analyzing the move?

No one answer, I'd guess, other than the pain it caused - and the opportunity it presents to think in terms broader than just baseball and the "loyalty" that we foolishly thought (hoped) O'M had to Brooklyn

I'm intruiged by the move dynamics for three reasons: (1) are there ways it could have been prevented? and (2) what and where would the Dodgers be today had they stayed in Brooklyn? and (3) what would Brooklyn itself be today had the team remained?

Those questions interest me because they involve matters other than sports: economics, urban planning, demographics, et al.

Sure, it is academic to think about this, since they're gone forever, but the history and dynamics of the move are things we can learn from. Even Professor Neil Sullivan at Baruch College wrote a book (The Dodgers Move West) analyzing the history and reasons for the move. His thesis is that O'M wanted to stay in Brooklyn.

After reading the book, I don't agree. The lure of the untapped West, the pay TV rights (unheard of in sports 50 years ago), the mineral rights to Chavez Ravine, and other factors combined, in my opinion, to vastly outweigh in O'M's keen mind, any financial reasons that would have called for the team to remain in NYC.

Just one man's opnion.

[DODGER DEB]

Oh, I will. Just as soon as I can think of something. So be prepared.
I wonder if people would be interested in an Arky Vaughn thread?

I don't see why not, Shotgun.

c.

[DODGER DEB]

We're going to have to live with this for a while; especially in the next year which marks 50 years since the treachery.

Shotgun...any discussion of the Brooklyn Dodgers of that era....well who led the National League in attendance for the 11 year period from 1947 - 1957? Who was the biggest money maker in the NL in that 11 year period?

I am a culprit also, I know it but I only make a habit of replying when the issue comes up...I don't start threads about it; not that there is anything wrong with that.

We constantly have visitors to this forum who just don't know, who just don't understand and it is our obligation, yours too, to remind them of what happened a half century ago and there is little question that fewer and fewer people are around who remember the Daffy Dodgers of the 30's (or were they the Robins?) and quite frankly I cannot tell anybody personally about the time somebody called a friend and was told there were three Dodger runniers on base and asked which one? I can't talk personally about the year the manager of the Giants (Bill Terry) said during the hot stove season in the 30's, "Is Brooklyn still in the League?" He found out when the Brooks knocked the Giants out of the pennant in the last series of the season; but unfortunately I wasn't there.

I could tell about the last days of the 1956 season when Brooklyn went into the final series 1 game behind Milwaukee, had the Friday night game in Brooklyn rained out against the Pirates, saw the Braves lose in St. Louis, sweep a double header on Saturday and you know what I remember best...in those days there weren't electronic score boards that listed the league sandings...the pennants of each team in the league were arranged in order of the standings starting in center field and goiong around the stands...and between games of the double header that Saturday afternoon when Brooklyn won to tie Milwaukee, they took the Milwaukee flag off the center field pole for the first place team and put the Brooklyn flag there...I remember the 2nd game of that double header when Jackie Robinson was called out on an absurd call at 2nd base and the umpires, led by Jocko Conlan, threatened to forfeit the game if the fans didn't stop throwing things on the field at them and waiving white handkerchiefs. I remember staying up that Saturday night listening to a recreation of the Brave game in St. Louis which Warren Spahn lost in the 14th inning 1-0 on a home run by Stan Musial.

I remember watching the Sunday game in Brooklyn when the Dodgers got off to a big early lead against Pittsburgh and Vin Scully, yes the same one, saying on television, "the Milwaukee Brave dugout must be a very quiet place right now." I remember the Pirates coming back a bit in the game only to be stymied by a great catch by Duke Snider against the black wall in center field allowing the Dodgers to go on to win that game and eliminate the Braves...little did I know what was to happen a year later.

Now aren't those great memories?

I was at those games on the last two days of the season in 1956, when WE were fighting for the NL pennant against Milwaukee. That Saturday DH was something. The main event of those games was the white hanky/shirts waving by everyone in the ballpark after Frank Secory fell asleep (as he usually did) at second base on that play. People sitting in the upper deck in CF saw that play more clearly than Secory did. WE would not stop, and the more WE were told to stop by Tex Rickard, the louder WE got....that is, until good ol' Jocko Conlon gave US an ultimatum, either "shut-up" or you "forfeit the game". After he grabbed the mike from Tex, his exact words were a lot longer than that, but that was Jocko, being Jocko. In all my years of attending games at OUR Ebbets Field, I never saw OUR Ebbets as packed, and I do mean packed, as it was that Saturday. There were people sitting on the steps in all the aisles, and hanging from the rafters. There must have been at least 35,000, maybe more, squeezed into Ebbets that day.

In the end, WE won. But, as Matha531 said, little did WE realize that, sadly, it would be the last time WE would ever experience "the wonder of it all".

c.

[Shotgun Shuba]

` Why do we keep analyzing the move?

No one answer, I'd guess, other than the pain it caused - and the opportunity it presents to think in terms broader than just baseball and the "loyalty" that we foolishly thought (hoped) O'M had to Brooklyn

I'm intruiged by the move dynamics for three reasons: (1) are there ways it could have been prevented? and (2) what and where would the Dodgers be today had they stayed in Brooklyn? and (3) what would Brooklyn itself be today had the team remained?

Those questions interest me because they involve matters other than sports: economics, urban planning, demographics, et al.

Sure, it is academic to think about this, since they're gone forever, but the history and dynamics of the move are things we can learn from. Even Professor Neil Sullivan at Baruch College wrote a book (The Dodgers Move West) analyzing the history and reasons for the move. His thesis is that O'M wanted to stay in Brooklyn.

After reading the book, I don't agree. The lure of the untapped West, the pay TV rights (unheard of in sports 50 years ago), the mineral rights to Chavez Ravine, and other factors combined, in my opinion, to vastly outweigh in O'M's keen mind, any financial reasons that would have called for the team to remain in NYC.

Just one man's opnion.

The one thing I know is that the urban change in Brooklyn contributed greatly to the move. Brooklyn changed and the new ethnic mix was not something O'Malley welcomed. The things sports franchises felt they needed to survive changed, such as abundant parking and comfortable seating. All of these things were available in NY, but the limited options available in Brooklyn made it hard. I believe with all my heart and soul that a combination racetrack and ball park in Elmont would have made MORE money for O'Malley. The future was LI and Queens but then they would not be the Brooklyn Dodgers. I think that the huge allure of gambling was something Walter didn't even imagine. They did succeed magnificently, of course, and that stings even more. The whole sports world has changed though, I find I don't have the passion for my teams I had between ages 12-30. I just have so much more to be concerned with. The Brooklyn Dodgers have been transformed from a real entity to a myth, like Camelot. Maybe that is their ultimate revenge.

[MATHA531]

Ah...the old chicken or the egg syndrome...had Brooklyn changed irrevocably so that the piece of slime was scared for his future clientelle or was the move the last straw that broke the camel's back? Arguments can be made both ways.

As we said in an earlier thread....I still wonder if the great slime had been more willing to do some of his own work whether a move to LI, where many of the Dodger fans had run, would have worked?

Out there was plenty of land...easy access by Robert Moses' highways transportation by the LIRR...

But at the same token, the one thing is that it wasn't as if the great slime had to move just then...the team was still making lots of money and even if we accept the new thesis that it was Robert Moses that drove him out (and I don't) the great slime was far younger than Moses and could have waited him out...no all the evidence continues to point to the fact that it was greed on the part of the great slime that ultimately led to the demise of the Dodgers.

[EbtsFldGuy]

[QUOTE=Shotgun Shuba]The future was LI and Queens but then they would not be the Brooklyn Dodgers.

Shotgun has hit an insightful home run on that one.

50 years ago, it probably would have been unthinkable to have the Brooklyn Dodgers play anywhere but in the Borough of Churches. In recent times, however, sports teams' names have become portable. Witness the NY Giants playing in NJ, with no NY connnection anymore. Also, I THINK the Dallas Cowboys play in Irving, which is outside the city limits.

Though the culture of the times likely would not have let there be a Brooklyn Dodgers team which played in another borough or outside NYC, today that would not be the case, I suspect.

In any event, it is all just wistful thinking.

[EvanAparra]

Also, I THINK the Dallas Cowboys play in Irving, which is outside the city limits.

Yep, you're right.

[CaliforniaCajun]

I never made the connection before today, but on October 9, 1957 Red Patterson, Dodger VP, made the official announcement that OUR DODGERS were being taken from US....for pure greed!

The connection I never made until today is this.....October 9th is the BIG "O's" birthday. So, I guess he decided that he would give himself a HUGE PRESENT, by tearing the hearts out of millions of BROOKLYN DODGER FANS!

It was not only the GREEDIEST act ever...it was also the most SELFISH!

c.

I don't remember where I read it, but I was always under the impression that October 8 was the day of the announcement.

That announcement probably cost Walter O'Malley election to the Hall of Fame.

[musial6]

I don't remember where I read it, but I was always under the impression that October 8 was the day of the announcement.

That announcement probably cost Walter O'Malley election to the Hall of Fame.

October 8 is correct.http://www.brainyhistory.com/events/...57_119522.html

[DODGER DEB]

What I was actually looking at was the newspapers of October 9th, which were reporting on the events of October 8th. So, you are both correct, October 8th was the actual date.....not that WE needed to be told.... officially!

c.

[1995hoo]

[QUOTE=EbtsFldGuy]

The future was LI and Queens but then they would not be the Brooklyn Dodgers.

Shotgun has hit an insightful home run on that one.

50 years ago, it probably would have been unthinkable to have the Brooklyn Dodgers play anywhere but in the Borough of Churches. In recent times, however, sports teams' names have become portable. Witness the NY Giants playing in NJ, with no NY connnection anymore. Also, I THINK the Dallas Cowboys play in Irving, which is outside the city limits.

It's a fairly common thing throughout pro sports in general. Funny thing is, it's less common now than it seemed to be in the 1970s and 1980s when the convertible stadiums were on the rise. It seems like it's generally been realized that baseball, hockey, and basketball do best in the city, whereas for football it's less of an issue:

*The Giants and the Jets both play in New Jersey.
*The Washington Capitals and Washington Bullets played in Landover, Maryland, from 1974 until 1997, when they moved to downtown Washington. Right about that same time the Washington Redskins moved from Washington out to Landover.
*The Dallas Cowboys do indeed play in Irving.
*The Minnesota Vikings and Minnesota Twins used to play in Bloomington; they now play in Minneapolis.
*The Detroit Lions used to play in Pontiac, and the Detroit Pistons now play in Auburn Hills.
*The Arizona Cardinals (formerly the Phoenix Cardinals) played in Tempe for many years notwithstanding the name "Phoenix." They moved to Glendale this year. The Phoenix Coyotes also play in Glendale.
*The Buffalo Bills play in Orchard Park.
*The Ottawa Senators play out in Kanata.
*The USFL's Baltimore Stars played in Byrd Stadium at the University of Maryland in College Park, which is closer to DC than to Baltimore.

Anyway, to return to the Brooklyn Dodgers, I recall that my grandmother had a book called something like "Brooklyn...and How It Got That Way" that made much of the fact that WHN*** was adamant that the Dodgers would not play in Queens because Queens wasn't in Brooklyn, whereas Robert Moses was keen on a particular site out near Flushing. Hmph.


***WHN stands for "What's His Name." Need I say more? On the UVA message board we use that to refer to Ronald Curry, who committed to UVA as a quarterback but then reneged on it. Same principle....