Herb Pennock

[DoubleX]

You know what I don't understand about Herb Pennock? He wasn't one of those ridiculous VC selections - he was actually elected to the Hall of Fame, and elected in 1948, at a time when the writers were still figuring out this Hall of Fame thing and many superior players were still waiting to be voted in.

Consider this - he was the 7th pitcher to be voted into the Hall by the writers, trailing only: Lefty Grove, Carl Hubbell, Pete Alexander, Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, and Walter Johnson. How in the world does Herb Pennock fit in there? Including VC selections (Jack Chesbro, Joe McGinnity, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh), Pennock was just the 12th pitcher to be elected. Chesbro is the only bigger head scratcher, but he was a VC choice, not a writers choice, and he does have that one huge season that perhaps the VC felt was enough back then to commemorate his career.

So I don't get how Pennock could get in so early, while pitchers like Mordecai Brown, Dazzy Vance, Kid Nichols, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Stan Coveleski, Ted Lyons, and others had to wait (not to mention a number of qualified position players).

He seems to me to be one of the worst pitchers in the Hall, and someone I would have expected to be a VC mistake - was he really considered that great back then? If so, why? Because he pitched for the Yankees? That didn't help Red Ruffing, Lefty Gomez, and Waite Hoyt from waiting for a considerable amount of time, or get in Carl Mays, Bob Shawkey, or Urban Shocker (though Mays had other things going against him). So what was seen as so special about Pennock that he was the 7th pitcher voted in by the writers, decades before his Yankees teammates?

[Ubiquitous]

Mr Pennock died in January of 1948. He was well liked and the vote was after he died I believe.

[DoubleX]

Mr Pennock died in January of 1948. He was well liked and the vote was after he died I believe.

That explains it. Thank you.

[Ubiquitous]

Well it does and it doesn't.

Herb made for whatever reason a strong showing in 1947. He got 86 votes. The next year he died and he got 94 votes. So he improved by 8 votes and what is strange is that for whatever reason the total voters declined this year. In 1947 161 voters voted. In 1948 121 voted. So perhaps the 86 voters from last year were not the ones who did not return and then possibly with his death 8 more people said sure he is a hall of famer.

I've read that a lot of the votes were already in when he suffered his stroke, but if he only needed 8 more votes I can see how it could affect the voting. The real question though is how did he suddenly jump to 86 votes the year before?

[The Commissioner]

was he really considered that great back then? If so, why?

Apparently so. Miller Huggins once referred to him as the greatest lefthander in the history of baseball.

Also keep in mind just how outstanding his World Series record was. 10 games pitched, 5 starts, 5-0 with 3 saves, a 1.95 ERA.

I'm sure that his one appearance in the '27 World Series also stood out a lot in voters' minds. He only pitched one game, but it was a CG three hitter, which was a no-hitter going into the eighth inning. Yes, it was only one game, but one game in the crowning achievement of what was, at least then considered to be, the greatest team in history.

[Ubiquitous]

Some more tidbits that might explain some. In 1947 the HoF saw a major revision to their voting process since nobody was getting elected. They instituted some cutoffs for player eligibility which resulted in a lot of players from yesteryear being removed from the ballot. So the voters were really only focusing on more contemporary players at that time. Which probably explains how Pennock's vote totals suddenly jumped up in 1947.

[DoubleX]

Some more tidbits that might explain some. In 1947 the HoF saw a major revision to their voting process since nobody was getting elected. They instituted some cutoffs for player eligibility which resulted in a lot of players from yesteryear being removed from the ballot. So the voters were really only focusing on more contemporary players at that time. Which probably explains how Pennock's vote totals suddenly jumped up in 1947.

That does to some degree, as does the fact that in '45 and '46, the VC put in a bunch of players (I'd kinda like to see that again, but with more precision this time). But that still leaves me wondering why Pennock got voted in before say Mordecai Brown, Dazzy Vance, Stan Coveleski, or some of his Yankees contemporaries. Yeah, I could come up with some reasons for why - Brown played earlier and was thus further back in memory; Vance played for bad teams with a shorter career; Coveleski played in Cleveland; Red Ruffing only just retired in '47; but that still leaves me scratching my head as to why Pennock. Why not say teammate Waite Hoyt? Or Jesse Haines who was on some very successful Cardinals teams and had success in the World Series?

[Ubiquitous]

From what I am reading in those first few elections after the revisions almost nobody who didn't play in the 1930's got any real support. That of course doesn't explain why Pennock over Haines. But does help explain Coveleski, and Brown was removed from the voters consideration due to rule changes in 1947. Vance did see his vote total go up under the revisions of 1947 but then for some reason they fell back down in 1948. Ruffing started getting votes in 1948, but it looks like in those days practically everybody had to build steam to get in.

[oscargamblesfro]

I think the fact that Pennock played for dynasties in Philadelphia and Boston and then the Yankees had something to do with it, though he did play for some pretty bad teams with the first 2 clubs, he was generally on good to great clubs. I get the feeling that he might have been one of those guys who were far more highly regarded during their career than after it. And there were some years in the 20's where he really was one of the better hurlers (and especially lefties) in the league.

[oscargamblesfro]

Anyone here ever notice that one of Pennock's very best years was that strange off year of 1925 when the Yankee team came in 7th place? He was 16-17 but had a 2.96 ERA, 2nd in the league, and led the league in WHIP, and was at or near the top in many pitching categories. I think Pennock was a close to great hurler from 23-27, and while certainly not an overwhelming choice for the Hall, may actually be better than he might appear at 1st glance. It's not merely a case of playing for the right team at the right time. He's not a great HOF'er but clearly isn't a Haines or Marquard type either, more of a Class C than a Class D, so to speak...

[Fuzzy Bear]

Pennock is not unworthy of the HOF; he's really not as bad as a lot of people say. He's not a top rank pick, however. The guys on Double X's list were all better.

Pennock's death was sudden. He was an educated man, and well thought of. He served as GM of the Philadelphia Phillies from 1943 until his death, so he was active in baseball at the time of his death. That's the kind of thing that can give you uumph with the writers. His work was helping the Phillies improve; he laid the foundation for what became the Whiz Kids of 1950.

Had Pennock not gone in at the time he did, he may never have gone into the HOF. He certainly would never be inducted now. The reason is not his stats; it's his legacy of racism. Pennock was opposed to the integration of baseball, and told Branch Rickey so:

"[You] just can't bring the n----- here with the rest of your team, Branch. We're just not ready for that sort of thing yet. We won't be able to take the field against your Brooklyn team if that boy Robinson is in uniform."

Not all of the Phillie racism of the day was Pennock's fault. Some of it started at the top with Owner Bob Carpenter. Then, too, there was Ben Chapman, the Phillie manager in 1947 and a viscious bench jockey who rode Jackie Robinson more mercilessly than any other. But Pennock was a big part of the Phillie racism. People overlooked that in 1947; even condoned that, but if he were on the ballot of the VC today, his racism would be the story in every article about his HOF prospects, I guarantee it.

[The Commissioner]

I was just looking over Pennock's record again. Take a look as his 16-17 record for the '25 Yankees. The odd part is that he was second in the league with a 2.96 ERA. Talk about Ruth's absence having an impact. I have to believe that were Ruth in the lineup every day, Pennock would have easily notched another 20 win season.

[KCGHOST]

To me Pennock is a horrible choice for the HoF, but there have been worse (Haines, Marquard, etc.). In the context of the day Pennock probably looked like a good candidate: 240 wins and a .597 winning percentage is impressive. Today we know that these numbers are strongly inflated by the caliber of teams he pitched on. His SNWL knocks 28 wins off his record and reduces his winning percentage to .527. With an ERA+ of 106 Pennock should not be anywhere near the HoF.

From 1923-1928 Pennock was an excellent pitcher, though.

[leecemark]

--Pennock looks alot like Andy Petttite to me. Maybe not quite as good even. Does anybody think Pettite is a reasonable Hall of Fame candidate?

[Cougar]

With a bit more career length at his current skill level, Pettitte will merit some HOF consideration.

Pettitte looks a bit like Pennock without the ragged years in early career and in late career. To a large degree they were compiling, although Pennock's early career gave him (at least tangential) association with three dynasties: the 1912-1914 A's, the 1916-1918 Red Sox, and of course the Yankees, which added some (perhaps unmerited) luster to his career.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Pennock was a World War I vet; he missed the 1918 season to military service. He was 24 that year, so it's fair to say that he missed a key year of his career to WWI. I'll give him a bonus there; had he played in 1918, he'd have had over 250 career wins, and that would have added to his luster.

[Ubiquitous]

Yes but Herb chose to walk away from the game in 1918. Before the war Herb was used sporadically and Herb sort of gave up on baseball and joined the Navy. After the war Barrow wanted him but Herb wouldn't sign until he got a promise that he would be used more.

There is no guaranteee that Herb would have been used all that much had he stayed home and who knows what his future playing time would have been.

[redban]

Pennock also happened to be a very good friend of Babe Ruth, which may have helped his popularity and his HOF induction.