View Poll Results: Nolan Ryan or Sandy Koufax? Who is the better pitcher?

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  • Nolan Ryan

    10 35.71%
  • Sandy Koufax

    18 64.29%
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Thread: Nolan Ryan or Sandy Koufax? Who is the better pitcher?

  1. #1
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    Nolan Ryan or Sandy Koufax? Who is the better pitcher?

    When I think of overrated pitchers, Koufax and Ryan are two names that easily come in my mind. The other day I started thinking about which one was better. I asked my friends, but they all are Ryan fans and they have him as the 2nd or 3rd best pitcher of all time, which I thought was a little ridiculous. Anyways, I looked both of them up on BBR, and I came to the conclusion that:
    Ryan:Longetivity
    Koufax:Peak
    I value both Peak and Longetivity, but I thought that 27 years of production overweighed a great six year peak. So I choose Ryan.
    Anyways, I want to know what the people at BBF think.

  2. #2
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    Even though Ryan never won a Cy Young award- his 5,714 K's and 7 no hitters are something that Ryan nearly doubled off of Koufax's 4 no-no's. And Koufax had Drysdale with him. So, he had to share the attention. What was the closest Ryan had in California? Forsch and May? They were ok. Go to Houston, you have Mike Scott. Good, but nothing spectacular. And go to Texas. He still throws a no no, plays from 69-93. Practically, the only team in which he wasn't #1 was the Mets where they had Seaver. But Ryan playing in four different decades. His number is the only number retired by the Rangers. I could go on and on. He was also a fighter too. Just ask Robin Ventura.

  3. #3
    That's interesting because they both tend to be in people's minds and revered above similar pitchers, and they put it all together somewhat late in their careers.

    Koufax had the better peak, but better enough to have a career better than Nolan's? I can't say.

    Ryan started out so savage and chaotic. Fortunately for him he could overpower hitters and not give up many home runs, but that also spoke to the hitters in the early 70s. The ERA results were usually good, as we saw in 1972 at 2.28. BUT that was a year close to 1968 (he had 16 losses, fewer CGs than usual), and from year to year he could see ERA swings and WHIP as well. He got the most out of his high WHIPs but what about in numerous other decades? Would he be a rich-man's Daniel Cabrera instead of a true legend?

    Once he learned to really pitch, or at least efficiently, he was 34 as was a very good older player after that. He was still wild and didn't have great ERA+ results, but I think he outpitched his stats.

    But Koufax... ahh, heck, he was better, over about 7-8 years which is enough to tell... not the better career since Nolan had more than 400 starts of good quality.
    (fantasy football)
    JM: Only did that for a couple of years and then we had a conspiracy so it kind of turned me sour. Our league's commissioner, Lew Ford(notes) at the time, was doing some shady things that ... I'd rather not talk about [laughs].
    DB: Isn't he in Japan right now?
    JM: I don't know where Lou is right now. He's probably fleeing the authorities [laughs].

  4. #4
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    Koufax, and it's not really that close.

  5. #5
    Koufax was better, Ryan had a better career. So since the question asks who the better pitcher was, i'll take Koufax.

  6. #6
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    According to Who is baseball's greatest pitcher? Koufax was only at his peak for 6 years.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    According to Who is baseball's greatest pitcher? Koufax was only at his peak for 6 years.
    Well, i'd say he had a 5 year peak, other than that, not much of a career. But pitching wise, i still think hes better.

  8. #8
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    "not much of a career"

    Ah, thank you. So, how is a 5 year wonder guy better than a guy who pitched for 4 decades?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    "not much of a career"

    Ah, thank you. So, how is a 5 year wonder guy better than a guy who pitched for 4 decades?
    Hm, did you read what I wrote (doesn't seem like it). I think he was a better pitcher, not that he had the better career. As in, when Sandy pitched, he was better than Ryan when he pitched.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    According to Who is baseball's greatest pitcher? Koufax was only at his peak for 6 years.
    As a matter of fact Koufax was at his peak for 6 years (1961-1966). In 1960, he was 8-13 w/ a 3.91 ERA and 105 ERA+ on a 82-72 team. It started in 1961 where he started to do well. He had a 3.52 ERA was 18-13 and had an ERA+ of 124.

  11. #11
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    Oooo, someone doesn't like it when I have an attitude. Do you wanna start? I'll take you anytime, anywhere, but not here!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    Oooo, someone doesn't like it when I have an attitude. Do you wanna start? I'll take you anytime, anywhere, but not here!

    Oh no! The guy from suburban Burbank,Illinois (pop. 27902) is challenging the new yorker to a fight!

    BTW, Alecboy, why didn't you vote for Ryan? It seemed like you had a pro ryan arguement in the beginning.
    Last edited by TBT; 11-11-2006 at 08:26 PM.

  13. #13
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    Not you, the guy from Texas.

  14. #14
    Ryan only had a career ERA+ of 112 though through more than 5000 innings. Then again Steve Carlton only had a 115 ERA+ and pitched about the same number of innings.

    I was suprised to discover that Ryan's teams were a grand total of 13 games ABOVE .500 over his career.

    In my system I average 2 values: 1) The projected wins and loses for his teams due to his inning pitched and ERA+ which puts him at +67, and 2) The pitchers actual winning percentage (times innings/9) versus what a hypothetical average pitcher would have done for the same teams which puts him at +34. Ryan is +50.6 when I average these, which puts him right on the hall of fame based on actual value.

    Koufax is +69 based on ERA and IP and +48 based on his record versus that projected for an average pitcher given his team for an average of +58.

    So Ryan produced about 50 more wins for his teams than an average pitcher would have over the course of his career. Koufax produced about 58 (Granted in a much shorter career).

    Clemens, for comparison is +163
    Grove +160
    Johnson +199
    Young +180
    Seaver +147

    Neither one comes remotely close. It may have been harder for a pitcher to dominate in Koufax' era, but you know what, that makes him relatively less valuable. Still, he beats Ryan and given the peak, and post season pitching, he is still a solid hall of famer based on value, while Ryan is very borderline.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    Not you, the guy from Texas.
    Dude, what are you talking about?

  16. #16
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    You. You apparently have a beef with me.

    Anyway, Koufax better than Ryan? Ha!

    If both played the same length, Ryan would've done better!

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    You. You apparently have a beef with me.
    I do? Oh well, can't help it when people are overly sensitive..

  18. #18
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    I can tell you don't like what I have to say, or disagree with everything I say, and you think I know jack about baseball, or close to it. I can tell. But why argue here? I'll fight you on Aim. My sn is AlecBoy006.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    I can tell you don't like what I have to say, or disagree with everything I say, and you think I know jack about baseball, or close to it. I can tell. But why argue here? I'll fight you on Aim. My sn is AlecBoy006.
    I'm not going to Instant Message fight you. ( ) Not worth my time, especially since I don't even know why you're so mad. A little too sensitive, I suppose. Anyway, this has nothing to do with the question posed by the thread starter, so i'm done with this weird, pointless banter.

  20. #20
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    Very well then. I am mad, because you said I didn't read what you said about Koufax being better. Which I did, but I enjoy arguing baseball.

  21. #21
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    1. Walter Johnson
    2. Roger Clemens
    3. Lefty Grove
    4. Satchel Paige
    5. Cy Young
    6. Greg Maddux
    7. Christy. Matthewson
    8. G. C. Alexander
    9. Randy Johnson
    10. Warren Spahn
    11. Tom Seaver
    12. Sandy Koufax
    13. Nolan Ryan

    14. Steve Carlton
    15. Pedro Martinez

    As you can see, I have them right next to each other. I know I rate Ryan a bit higher than most (and probably Koufax as well), but that's where I thnk they belong right now. It is hard for me to distinguish which was better, which was more valuable. Koufax's peak, or Ryan's longevity, so for me it is almost even, and actually, the more I think about it, the more I want to switch the two, but I am going to give it some more thought before I do anything.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    Not you, the guy from Texas.
    My bad, I can get defensive at times.

  23. #23
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    I am very defensive myself. As my sig says, I am a nice guy, but I have alot of emotional stress riding my life.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    Which I did, but I enjoy arguing baseball.
    I know you're new to the site so I'll welcome you and say that BBF we discuss and debate, we don't argue. There is no real point at getting mad when someone disagrees with you in regards to opinion or asks you to elaborate on something.

    If you feel someone is attacking or harrassing you, contact myself or any of the other mods here. Please don't call people out (it's pointless to do so over the net).

    Thanks

  25. #25
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    Okay. Thank You

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