Matt Williams for Cooperstown?

[AlecBoy006]

I know I am making alot of topics about this, but I like discussing about this sorta thing. Let's take a look at Matt Williams

Reasons why I support him:

5X All Star
4X Gold Glove
4X Silver Slugger
378 Homers
1218 RBI
.489 slug %
.317 on base
.268 batting average- decent, but not bad.

Reasons I don't support him

Didn't have 2000 hits
Struck out 100 times 4 times
Only Led The League in Homers Once
Only Led the League in RBI Once
.247 batter in the postseason, although he had excellent numbers in the 97 World Series.

[leecemark]

--If Williams hadn'y broke down so early he might have been a Hall of Famer. Unfortunately for him what might have been his signature season was cut short by the 94 strike, depriving him of the historic season that would give his advocates something to start a discussion with. Terrific power and very good glove don't overcome short career and lousy OBP IMO.

[DoubleX]

He'll join that long line of 3Bman trying to get in.

[Fuzzy Bear]

--If Williams hadn'y broke down so early he might have been a Hall of Famer. Unfortunately for him what might have been his signature season was cut short by the 94 strike, depriving him of the historic season that would give his advocates something to start a discussion with. Terrific power and very good glove don't overcome short career and lousy OBP IMO.

Williams was a tremendous glove man; he was good enough to play shortstop, legitimately.

Had Williams broke Maris' record in 1994, I believe he would have been in the HOF, period.

Williams had injury problems and was not the most durable player in MLB history, but his career didn't end when it did due to injury or nobody wanting him. I understand that he had a marriage that didn't work out and there were circumstances that led to he, the father, having custody of his daughter, and he retired for personal family reasons. Williams could have easily hung on and made it to 400 jacks, although that may not necessarily have boosted his real career value.

Williams played his prime years in a pitchers' park, so he gets some credit for that. He wasn't Alfonso Soriano as a hacker, but he should have been a more patient hitter than he was, although he did cut down on his strikeout rate over time.

Williams has gotten little attention here; this thread is really overdue. I'm not sold on his being a HOFer, but I'm not willing to dismiss him outright, either. Williams has some HOF credentials. He had a high peak, and he was on his way to immortailty in 1994 when the strike hit. Williams averaged 33 jacks per 162 games; that's not chump change for a third baseman. And he was a Gold Glove third baseman; saying he was a "good glove" understates his peak defensive value.

In order to have a good discussion on this topic, a good place to start would be, IMO, where does Williams rate in comparision to HOF third basemen and, perhaps more importantly, where does he rate in terms of those third baseman outside the HOF. Where does Williams rate in the midst of THIS crowd:

Ron Santo
Stan Hack
Darrell Evans
Ken Boyer
Graig Nettles
Sal Bando
Al Rosen
Robin Ventura
Bob Elliott
Heine Groh
Ron Cey
Gary Gaetti
Terry Pendleton
Bill Madlock
Tim Wallach

I don't know if I'm leaving anyone out; I've been with the grandkids all day today and I'm pretty brain-dead.

These are MY subjective rankings of retired 3Bmen NOT in the HOF. I really don't know where to put Williams in this list; I'm guessing somewhere in between Sal Bando and Heine Groh. I'm sure there is disagreement on rankings, but where would the reader rank Williams among the crowd of 3Bmen outside the HOF?

[DoubleX]

In order to have a good discussion on this topic, a good place to start would be, IMO, where does Williams rate in comparision to HOF third basemen and, perhaps more importantly, where does he rate in terms of those third baseman outside the HOF. Where does Williams rate in the midst of THIS crowd:

Ron Santo
Stan Hack
Darrell Evans
Ken Boyer
Graig Nettles
Sal Bando
Al Rosen
Robin Ventura
Bob Elliott
Heine Groh
Ron Cey
Gary Gaetti
Terry Pendleton
Bill Madlock
Tim Wallach

That's pretty much the crowd I have around Williams as well, except I'd throw Buddy Bell in there too (funnily enough, I tend to forget Bell a lot of the time as well) and probably Toby Harrah. So of that group, I have the following definitely ahead of Williams:

Ron Santo
Ken Boyer
Stan Hack
Darrell Evans
Graig Nettles
Buddy Bell
Bob Elliot
Sal Bando
Heini Groh

It gets much closer after that and I could see good arguments for Williams being ahead of any of the remaining players, except Pendleton who I see as behind Williams. If you twisted my arm, I'd probably but Gaetti, Ventura, Madlock, Harrah, and Wallach behind Williams as well, leaving a tossup with Cey and Rosen.

[EvanAparra]

I voted 'Hell will freeze over if matt williams gets inducted". the .268 BA and .317 OBP arent pretty, especially when .266 and .335 were the league averages. Had a nice little peak from '93 to '96, but not close to enough to put him in.

[RuthMayBond]

Had Williams broke Maris' record in 1994, I believe he would have been in the HOF, period.

19 HR make that much difference?

[Fuzzy Bear]

19 HR make that much difference?

Absolutely. 19 HRs would have meant that Williams broke an important record, one that survived many assaults up until 1998. We would never have forgotten the name Matt Williams if he had broken the record, and, yes, he would be on the way to the HOF under those circumstances, deserving or not.

19 more HRs in 1994 would have been the difference between fame and anonymity for Williams. Fame can get you in the HOF on occasion, and, for Williams, I believe it would have.

[DoubleX]

Absolutely. 19 HRs would have meant that Williams broke an important record, one that survived many assaults up until 1998. We would never have forgotten the name Matt Williams if he had broken the record, and, yes,
he would be on the way to the HOF under those circumstances, deserving or not.

Breaking the record and winning two MVP Awards hasn't got Maris in.

[Fuzzy Bear]

That's pretty much the crowd I have around Williams as well, except I'd throw Buddy Bell in there too (funnily enough, I tend to forget Bell a lot of the time as well) and probably Toby Harrah. So of that group, I have the following definitely ahead of Williams:

Ron Santo
Ken Boyer
Stan Hack
Darrell Evans
Graig Nettles
Buddy Bell
Bob Elliot
Sal Bando
Heini Groh

It gets much closer after that and I could see good arguments for Williams being ahead of any of the remaining players, except Pendleton who I see as behind Williams. If you twisted my arm, I'd probably but Gaetti, Ventura, Madlock, Harrah, and Wallach behind Williams as well, leaving a tossup with Cey and Rosen.

I forgot Buddy Bell. I'd rate him around Elliott and Bando.

Elliott is somewhat underrated. He was called "Mr. Team", a very complimentary nickname. He won an MVP award, and he played in a terrible hitters park for a good part of his career. You may be right about where you rate bell, in that he had a longer career than the guys immediately under him in your ranking.

[RuthMayBond]

Absolutely. 19 HRs would have meant that Williams broke an important record, one that survived many assaults up until 1998. We would never have forgotten the name Matt Williams if he had broken the record, and, yes, he would be on the way to the HOF under those circumstances, deserving or not.

19 more HRs in 1994 would have been the difference between fame and anonymity for Williams. Fame can get you in the HOF on occasion, and, for Williams, I believe it would have.

Like for Maris?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Like for Maris?

Williams was a Gold Glove third baseman. Maris was a good corner outfielder. Williams had more good seasons than Maris. While Maris won back-to-back MVP awards, the first one coming BEFORE the big season, Williams would have won the 1994 NL MVP award had he gotten the record. (I know some are going to mention Sammy Sosa in 1998, but Sammy ALSO broke the record, and held the record at times during the race that year.) I think those are significant differences.

Williams ranks much higher amonst all-time third baseman than Maris does among all-time right fielders, and, had he gotten the record, would have ranked even higher.

[AlecBoy006]

I voted He deserved the Hall of Fame. I was feelin sorry for the guy.

[Dodgerfan1]

I voted He deserved the Hall of Fame. I was feelin sorry for the guy.

I wonder how many players are HOFers today because they got a 'pity vote'??

[Dalkowski110]

Harvard Eddie Grant got a couple back in the day, if you really want a "pity vote."

[brett]

I really think that Boyer gets overrated big time on offense around here. The league park adjusted rates for Sportsman's park were huge, atypical of the league. The adjusted league averages for his first 8 years were .341 On Base% and .427 Slugging %. His offense was a product of a ballpark. Now his defense is to be strongly considered.

I am not for Williams going in, but he was almost on par with Boyer as an offensive player when ballparks are factored in. Not only are the league adjusted OPS+ for these players virtually identical, but Boyer gets a boost because of the drop in his final years and Williams gets a cut because of a spike in offense in his later years.

Still, Boyer MIGHT make up enough on defense to deserve getting in and Williams doesn't.

Hack is higher than Boyer. So is Bando. Santo is way ahead. I'd go and my cutoff would be in the Bando, Evans, Boyer zone.
Santo
Hack
Bando
Evans
Boyer
Bell
Williams

That's pretty much the crowd I have around Williams as well, except I'd throw Buddy Bell in there too (funnily enough, I tend to forget Bell a lot of the time as well) and probably Toby Harrah. So of that group, I have the following definitely ahead of Williams:

Ron Santo
Ken Boyer
Stan Hack
Darrell Evans
Graig Nettles
Buddy Bell
Bob Elliot
Sal Bando
Heini Groh

It gets much closer after that and I could see good arguments for Williams being ahead of any of the remaining players, except Pendleton who I see as behind Williams. If you twisted my arm, I'd probably but Gaetti, Ventura, Madlock, Harrah, and Wallach behind Williams as well, leaving a tossup with Cey and Rosen.

[DoubleX]

I forgot Buddy Bell. I'd rate him around Elliott and Bando.

Elliott is somewhat underrated. He was called "Mr. Team", a very complimentary nickname. He won an MVP award, and he played in a terrible hitters park for a good part of his career. You may be right about where you rate bell, in that he had a longer career than the guys immediately under him in your ranking.

I should have said that I wasn't actually ranking, just listing with some ranking preference, but not really - Santo is first on my list, then it's really a tossup. After Santo, I think they're all really closely clustered.

I also think that Elliot is extremely underrated - you never hear his name mentioned, and I believe he's a legitimate borderline Hall of Fame candidate, but so are a number of 3Bman.

[538280]

I really think that Boyer gets overrated big time on offense around here.

I totally agree, I've said much of these things for a long time. Glad to agree.

[leecemark]

--Santo is the glaring oversight amoung thirdbasemen. There are maybe a dozen others in the grey area, who all have their partisans, but few of whom have a strong consenus on in/out or where they rank. Hack is the only thirdbaseman not in who is (I think) supported by a majority here. Boyer is probably the second most favored, but that is based more on glamor than actual separation from the pack IMO. He won the MVP (even though he wasn't even the best 3B in the NL in 64) and his stats got some help from his park (unlike Nettles, Elliot, Evans, Cey or Bando).
--I think thirdbase is underrepresented, but other than Santo there isn't a particular player who I can get really enthusiastic about. Williams might be in the best dozen not in, but he would be toward the back of that group for me.

[538280]

Why is it all the 3Bmen have short careers? All these guys, Boyer, Bando, Cey, Hack, Williams, Ventura, all those guys would seem to be much better candidates if you just gave them two more years of decent play, because they tend to run out of gas quick. Even looking at Mike Schmidt's record kind of leaves you wanting a few more seasons. Santo too.

I don't mean they weren't great players but they all seem to burn out sooner than they should. As Bill James noted Gary Gaetti for some reason did not burn out.

[brett]

What is Santo's status: Is he still on the ballot? What's the highest percentage he's gotten?

--Santo is the glaring oversight amoung thirdbasemen. There are maybe a dozen others in the grey area, who all have their partisans, but few of whom have a strong consenus on in/out or where they rank. Hack is the only thirdbaseman not in who is (I think) supported by a majority here. Boyer is probably the second most favored, but that is based more on glamor than actual separation from the pack IMO. He won the MVP (even though he wasn't even the best 3B in the NL in 64) and his stats got some help from his park (unlike Nettles, Elliot, Evans, Cey or Bando).
--I think thirdbase is underrepresented, but other than Santo there isn't a particular player who I can get really enthusiastic about. Williams might be in the best dozen not in, but he would be toward the back of that group for me.

[brett]

I have always wondered that. Do shortstops last any longer? What's more, most of these guys ran out of gas OFFENSIVELY. Schmidt couldn't get around on fastballs anymore.

Maybe it's the stress of having the right handed power hitters hammering them at you. Also, third baseman have to charge and turn in a way which can be bad on the knees.

Matthews best years were early and he just hung in a little longer.

Brett moved to first in '87 even though he won a gold glove in '85.

Interestingly though, Ripken played well at third at an advanced age, but he didn't play as long there.

Why is it all the 3Bmen have short careers? All these guys, Boyer, Bando, Cey, Hack, Williams, Ventura, all those guys would seem to be much better candidates if you just gave them two more years of decent play, because they tend to run out of gas quick. Even looking at Mike Schmidt's record kind of leaves you wanting a few more seasons. Santo too.

I don't mean they weren't great players but they all seem to burn out sooner than they should. As Bill James noted Gary Gaetti for some reason did not burn out.

[leecemark]

--Santo is off ballot and on the VC consideration list. He never got a fraction of the attention he should have while he was on the ballot. It is a very puzzling case.

[leecemark]

--I think part of why thirdbasemen don't last as long is the same reason they are thirdbasemen in the first place. Most are not great natural athletes. If they were they would be shortstops. The less natural athleticism you have to start the harder it is to maintain the level of reflexs needed to excell as a major league hitter. Schmidt and Brett were both pretty athletic, but not astonishingly so (and Brett had numerous injury problems as well).

[plask_stirlac]

He wouldn't fit as a HOFer at all. I'm not that impressed in an All-Time sense by four months of counting homers in 1994 or 1995 games since it only lasted 76 games. One great year, one short but phenomenal year. Other years were very good or great, but not a HOF collection at all. .317 is pretty putrid. I also don't think Maris should be in, it's not like Earl Webb or Chief Wilson have a case.

Lance Parrish for HOF?