View Poll Results: Does Jim Edmonds deserve to be enshrined in Cooperstown?

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  • Yes

    22 62.86%
  • No

    13 37.14%
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Thread: Jim Edmonds

  1. #61
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    The more I look at Edmonds's case, or invest in researching the years in which he played, the more I lean towards a very firm yes. In other words, I'm drifting from "arguably a Hall of Famer," to "Hall of Famer."
    Hey, this is my public apology for suddenly disappearing and missing out on any projects I may have neglected.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Classic View Post
    Interesting because I think Allen belongs in the Hall. Throw in a career of gold-glove defense at center field and subtract any intangibles issues you might dock Allen for and you've got a surefire Hall-of-Famer. That's just a notch above where I think Edmonds is at, but it's still an interesting comp.
    Take Allen's 156 OPS+ and throw in a career of gold glove defense at center field and what you've got is Willie Mays.

    It's interesting how close Edmunds's and Allens stats are, in a creepy sort of way, but it's an indication of how much times have changed rather than how similar they are.

    Not that Edmunds's numbers are shabby by any means. His counting stats are a little shortish, but what's there is choice.

  3. #63
    Edmonds is very close. His counting stats are close, when you also add in that he was a spectacular CF. His rate stats are also still very good. His OPS+ at 132 is impressive for a CF with gold glove defense and 1900 career games. The perception of him may be that he is very good, but I think he is better than the mainstream media perceives him to be. He had a couple of MVP level seasons with the Cardinals.

    Edmonds is one of those guys who really was hurt by Bonds presence in from 2000-2005. I would have given him(or possibly Pujols) the MVP in 2004. They produced at almost the same level, with Albert being slightly better. Pujols also had 70 more plate appearances, which combined with his tiny advantage in production gives him a very small advantage offensively. Edmonds being a CF, however, probably puts him on top for that season. Had he won the MVP in 2004 the resulting press would have really shown the world how great he has been for quite a while now. It could be the difference between making Cooperstown and ending up on the outside.
    Last edited by dl4060; 08-08-2008 at 01:36 PM.

  4. #64
    If he gets to 400 homeruns I believe he will get into the HOF. I hope he gets there. In any case the Cubs made a heck of a move in getting him.

  5. #65
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    Here is my take on Edmonds... He has a very nice shot at the HOF if the voters give him credit for being a Centerfielder, and not just an "outfielder". What's the difference you ask? Let's look at runs created vs the league average (min 6000 PA) for all non-pitchers, since 1975 when Fred Lynn re-invented the position....

    RUNS CREATED/GAME RATE PLAYER LEAGUE
    1 Barry Bonds 215 10.63 4.94
    2 Manny Ramirez 172 8.87 5.17
    3 Larry Walker 171 8.59 5.01
    4 Vladimir Guerrero 154 8.02 5.20
    5 Gary Sheffield 154 7.69 5.00
    6 Bobby Abreu 151 7.90 5.23
    7 Ken Griffey Jr. 149 7.52 5.03
    8 Brian Giles 149 7.84 5.27
    9 Rickey Henderson 146 6.93 4.75
    10 Albert Belle 143 7.27 5.07
    11 Tim Raines 143 6.66 4.65
    12 Dwight Evans 142 6.30 4.45
    13 Jack Clark 141 6.36 4.50
    14 Darryl Strawberry 141 6.45 4.59
    15 Tony Gwynn 140 6.63 4.72
    16 Jim Edmonds 140 7.36 5.25
    17 Ken Singleton 140 6.17 4.40
    18 Fred Lynn 139 6.19 4.46
    19 David Justice 139 6.89 4.97
    20 Tim Salmon 138 7.14 5.17
    21 Ellis Burks 135 6.60 4.87
    22 Eric Davis 135 6.41 4.76
    23 Moises Alou 134 6.85 5.12
    24 Jim Rice 134 5.95 4.45
    25 Reggie Jackson 132 5.90 4.46
    26 Juan Gonzalez 132 6.65 5.04
    27 George Foster 132 5.90 4.47
    28 Kirby Puckett 132 6.09 4.62
    29 Kirk Gibson 132 6.03 4.59
    30 Dave Winfield 128 5.84 4.55
    31 Ryan Klesko 128 6.67 5.21
    32 Bernie Williams 128 6.54 5.11
    33 Ken Griffey Sr. 128 5.77 4.52
    34 Gary Matthews 126 5.68 4.49
    35 Dale Murphy 126 5.63 4.47
    36 Sammy Sosa 126 6.36 5.05
    37 Andy Van Slyke 126 5.72 4.55
    38 Ray Lankford 125 6.28 5.00
    39 Jose Cruz 125 5.63 4.51
    40 Luis Gonzalez 124 6.35 5.13

    Now let's ask Lee's Database to filter out everyone it does not consider to be a centerfielder...


    RUNS CREATED/GAME RATE PLAYER LEAGUE
    1 Ken Griffey Jr. 149 7.52 5.03
    2 Jim Edmonds 140 7.36 5.25
    3 Fred Lynn 139 6.19 4.46
    4 Ellis Burks 135 6.60 4.87
    5 Eric Davis 135 6.41 4.76
    6 Kirby Puckett 132 6.09 4.62
    7 Bernie Williams 128 6.54 5.11
    8 Dale Murphy 126 5.63 4.47
    9 Andy Van Slyke 126 5.72 4.55
    10 Ray Lankford 125 6.28 5.00
    11 Al Oliver 124 5.52 4.47
    12 Kenny Lofton 120 6.16 5.12
    13 Chet Lemon 120 5.37 4.47
    14 Brett Butler 118 5.45 4.61
    15 Brady Anderson 117 5.84 5.00
    16 Johnny Damon 114 5.88 5.17
    17 Andruw Jones 111 5.81 5.26
    18 Lloyd Moseby 108 4.87 4.50
    19 Willie Wilson 106 4.77 4.52
    20 Steve Finley 104 5.22 5.01
    21 Mike Cameron 104 5.43 5.22
    22 Willie McGee 102 4.72 4.64

    Jim Edmonds looks REAL good if you compare him to fellow centerfielders, as opposed to all outfielders including corner outfielders and all time greats like Bonds, Vlad, and Manny. Will the HOF voters do the same?

  6. #66
    And if they look at this data, will they equate Edmonds with
    Ellis Burks ("I never thought of him as a Hall of Famer") and
    Eric Davis ("he couldn't stay in the lineup")?

    P.S.
    How many people invented the position before Fred Lynn?

  7. #67
    HTF is Jack Clark rated above Jim Edmonds in runs created amongst outfielders?

    OT but your list is pretty kind to Bobby Abreu at #6 below Bonds, Ramirez, Walker, Guerrero & Sheffield. I didn't know he was that high

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    And if they look at this data, will they equate Edmonds with
    Ellis Burks ("I never thought of him as a Hall of Famer") and
    Eric Davis ("he couldn't stay in the lineup")?

    P.S.
    How many people invented the position before Fred Lynn?
    The same as the number of teams which were winning World Series Games with centerfielders who were really shortstops (and hit like shortstops) who could run.

  9. #69
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    Jim Edmonds

    It has been about 3 years since the last series of potential HOFer polls I ran. Thought I would do another series of polls. Below is a list of the players stats to date. Unlike the last series of polls I'm not going to list any career projections.

    Jim Edmonds at age 38

    1925 games
    6612 at-bats
    1207 runs
    1881 hits
    414 doubles
    25 triples
    382 home runs
    1176 RBI
    65 stolen bases
    974 BB
    .284 AVG
    .377 OBP
    .528 SLG
    132 OPS+
    3491 total bases
    7708 PA's
    1364 runs created
    7.3 RC/G
    .659 OWP
    328.7 batting runs
    30.4 batting wins
    0 black ink
    60 gray ink
    40.4 HOF standards
    88.5 HOF monitor
    .303 EQA
    79.6 WARP1
    83.0 WARP3
    613 BRAR
    392 BRAA
    382 FRAR
    83 FRAA
    301 win shares
    My dream ballpark dimensions
    LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
    Location....San Diego

  10. #70
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  11. #71
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    Sabremetrically, he's there, but his counting stats are thin. He's missing the sorts of milestones that voters base their "he doesn't even have..." arguments on.

    One more half decent season would get him to 400 HR, 2000 hits, and 1000 walks. That would go a long way for him in terms of being able to get over the hump.

    Should it matter? Maybe not, but longevity and durability matter; those milestones are useful for filtering out high peak players whose peaks might not have been quite high enough.

    Is anyone going to give Edmonds a job this season?

  12. #72
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    Edmonds had quite a 1/2 season with the Cubs. He recaptured much of his lost ability, and racked up a .672 OWP for his Cubs time.

    Edmonds had problems with a series of concussions, so one wonders if he was suddenly able to put that behind him. I did not expect him to perform as well as he did with the Cubs, and the fact that he did indicates that he MIGHT still be able to hold down enough of a CF job to make it to 400 HRs.

    Edmonds, IMO, is a better pick for the HOF than Jim Rice or Dwight Evans. He brings much more defense to the table than even Evans did, and he was a better offensive player than both. Edmonds brings more to the table, IMO, than Andre Dawson. Being better than all of these guys, IMO, doesn't necessarily mean that you're a HOFer, but it's better than being behind them in line.

    Edmonds is, IMO, in the Duke Snider mold. He's not as good, of course, but he's cut out of the Snider mold. How much below Snider can you be and still be a HOFer?
    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

    NL President Ford Frick, 1947

  13. #73
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    If Andre Dawson can't get in, then neither should Jim Edmonds. Edmonds is good, but he's not a Hall of Famer. Then again, if they let Jim Rice in, they could let Edmonds in. It's not a hard and fast rule, so I look at Jimmy Baseball's numbers and I have to say no. I won't say his career is done, but he needs another season.
    Last edited by Ace Venom; 03-23-2009 at 05:54 AM.
    RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

  14. #74
    Does anyone know if Edmonds is trying to catch on with a team to play this year? I hope he does - IMO there are a lot of teams he can help.

  15. #75
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    To me Edmonds is a "Maybe". His Career Win Shares and his WARP3 score would each rank 11th among the 15 CF's already in the HoF.
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Shoemaker View Post
    Does anyone know if Edmonds is trying to catch on with a team to play this year? I hope he does - IMO there are a lot of teams he can help.
    Whereabouts unknown. He's still a free agent as of now: Free Agent Tracker MLB Trade Rumors

    Players debuting since 1985, 1000+ games in CF, 5500+ PA
    Code:
      Cnt Player            OPS+  RC   OBP    G    PA  From  To
    +----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+-----+----+----+
        1 Ken Griffey        138 1934  .373 2521 10742 1989 2008 
        2 Jim Edmonds        132 1364  .377 1925  7708 1993 2008 
        3 Ellis Burks        126 1350  .363 2000  8176 1987 2004 
        4 Bernie Williams    125 1445  .381 2076  9053 1991 2006 
        5 Ray Lankford       122 1045  .364 1701  6674 1990 2004 
        6 Carlos Beltran     118 1079  .357 1481  6520 1998 2008 
        7 Andruw Jones       111 1104  .339 1836  7514 1996 2008 
        8 Kenny Lofton       107 1386  .372 2103  9234 1991 2007 
        9 Mike Cameron       106  959  .340 1680  6807 1995 2008 
       10 Torii Hunter       105  737  .326 1380  5502 1997 2008 
       11 Steve Finley       104 1416  .332 2583 10460 1989 2007 
       12 Johnny Damon       103 1296  .354 1988  8807 1995 2008 
       13 Devon White         98 1022  .319 1941  8080 1985 2001 
       14 Lance Johnson       95  706  .334 1447  5800 1987 2000 
       15 Marquis Grissom     92 1101  .318 2165  8959 1989 2005 
       16 Brian McRae         92  689  .331 1354  5737 1990 1999 
       17 Juan Pierre         84  697  .346 1288  5639 2000 2008
    Last edited by Freakshow; 03-23-2009 at 11:44 AM.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  17. #77
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    I voted no. If Dale Murphy isn't in, I don't think Edmonds should be in. Murphy won two MVP awards, and didn't play in the offensive-friendly era Edmonds did. Looking at his numbers, though, Jimmy is definitely at least a borderline canidate (personally, though, if you're borderline, I don't think you should go in the HoF). Amazing that a guy with Edmonds speed only stole 65 bases, though.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy Train View Post
    I voted no. If Dale Murphy isn't in, I don't think Edmonds should be in. Murphy won two MVP awards, and didn't play in the offensive-friendly era Edmonds did. Looking at his numbers, though, Jimmy is definitely at least a borderline canidate (personally, though, if you're borderline, I don't think you should go in the HoF). Amazing that a guy with Edmonds speed only stole 65 bases, though.
    I'm not objecting to the conclusion -- I think Gravy Train has got it more or less exactly correct; Edmonds is borderline -- but I do object to the reasoning. Simply, two wrongs don't make a right.

    Murphy is better than Edmonds, I agree...indeed, I think he's so much better that it's a travesty he's only receiving vote totals from the BBWAA in the teens or whatever they've been on late. Murphy is better than half the center fielders in the Hall of Fame right now.

    However, if Edmonds is worthy, regardless of his rank compared to other worthies, his induction ought to be supported. Players ought to be considered on their own merits.

    To put it another way, if Ty Cobb for some bizarre reason weren't in the Hall, it wouldn't improve matters to exclude Tris Speaker on the logic that he wasn't as good as Cobb. A HOFer is a HOFer, and aiming for some sort of cosmic justice is foolhardy. The best bet for such justice is to slowly but surely improve matters one step at a time, and hope that someday we'll get to the top of the mountain.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Venom View Post
    If Andre Dawson can't get in, then neither should Jim Edmonds. Edmonds is good, but he's not a Hall of Famer. Then again, if they let Jim Rice in, they could let Edmonds in. It's not a hard and fast rule, so I look at Jimmy Baseball's numbers and I have to say no. I won't say his career is done, but he needs another season.
    Dawson's and Edmonds' cases have nothing to do with each other, never mind the fact Dawson will almost certainly be inducted in the Hall of Fame before Edmonds sees his first ballot. Edmonds deserves to be in because he was great enough for long enough, not because he's better than Rice.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
    Edmonds is, IMO, in the Duke Snider mold. He's not as good, of course, but he's cut out of the Snider mold. How much below Snider can you be and still be a HOFer?
    Well, I don't want to debate Jim Edmonds vs Duke Snider here. But, as to the how much below Snider can you be and still be a HOFer, I'd say quite a bit.

    Don't have any data in front of me, but there probably are at least 150 position players in the HOF. Quite a few- help, somebody- were elected by the Veterans' Committees. It's true that Duke wasn't elected until his 11th try, but that was due to many circumstances, which I won't go into now. Some were salient, some were not.

    Most recent/current polls place Duke Snider somewhere in the top 60 or so position players of all time. Some, like James, place him considerably higher. If these opinions are accepted, it seems that Snider is at least in the middle- probably higher- in the hierarchy of HOF position players.

    So, in my opinion, the answer to the question is- LOTS- maybe 100 player's worth- if voting was rational.

    Edmonds has been a very good player for quite a few years. His lack of counting stats and his lack of league leaderships will work against him. I don't believe he will be voted into the HOF by the BBWA, but many stranger things have happened.

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