Women In The Major Leagues

[digglahhh]

NAE,

We've been through this before, but I can't say it enough. The first step is to not push young girls along the softball path. If it is their choice, fine. But if they are comfortable playing baseball they should not be deterred.

The effects of this can extend beyond baseball. A female ballplayer proving herself can teach a young boy a lot about respect and acceptance. My younger brother's friend had a younger sister who I would routinely drag out to run full court basketball games with, she could shoot from the outside far better than most of guys who were only concerned with dribbling the ball between their legs.

There was a girl in my Little League who was an All Star pitcher all the way through early Babe Ruth League. Most of the guys who were on her team at one time or another finished that season with a different opinion about female ballplayers than they began the year with.

I accidentally hit her with a pitch in an All Star game (I might have told you this before). She dusted herself off grimaced in pain a little, but then just trotted down to first base. She wanted no part of the extra attention she may have been given because she was a girl. I apologized to her and told her how relieved I was that she wasn't badly hurt. She was just as worried about how she would be perceived if she made a big show. Her reaction to it made me feel much better and earned as much respect from me as her talent did.

[hot_corner_gurl]

Yes, my cousins are very narrow-minded and really think that I'm crazy for wanting a female ballplayer.
And about that girl, I know what it's like. Being hit with a heater hurts a hellova lot. Being hit itself hurts. She's tough...
I did play in the CWBL, but I had to stop because of an injury.

[NotAboutEgo]

NAE,

We've been through this before, but I can't say it enough. The first step is to not push young girls along the softball path. If it is their choice, fine. But if they are comfortable playing baseball they should not be deterred.

The effects of this can extend beyond baseball. A female ballplayer proving herself can teach a young boy a lot about respect and acceptance. My younger brother's friend had a younger sister who I would routinely drag out to run full court basketball games with, she could shoot from the outside far better than most of guys who were only concerned with dribbling the ball between their legs.

There was a girl in my Little League who was an All Star pitcher all the way through early Babe Ruth League. Most of the guys who were on her team at one time or another finished that season with a different opinion about female ballplayers than they began the year with.

I accidentally hit her with a pitch in an All Star game (I might have told you this before). She dusted herself off grimaced in pain a little, but then just trotted down to first base. She wanted no part of the extra attention she may have been given because she was a girl. I apologized to her and told her how relieved I was that she wasn't badly hurt. She was just as worried about how she would be perceived if she made a big show. Her reaction to it made me feel much better and earned as much respect from me as her talent did.

I agree. Most boys grow up with the notion that females are weak and aren't as good at sports and many other things, because that's what they are told and what they "see" while growing up. They get their ideas from the environment they grow up in. If things were to change like females having more opportunities to play baseball, then their perceptions will change.

I've gotten hurt a couple of times while playing in games where I was the only women there. When my teammates saw that I got hurt in some way, they rushed to me to see if I was OK... like they needed to help. I appreciated their concern for me, but I was fine and could still play, and I was very irritated and put off that they rushed over to me the way they did... like I couldn't take it and needed their help. I threw the ball over my shoulder behind me and walked off the field and told them I'm fine. I can't stand it when I'm patronized, whether it's intentional or not. Would they have done the same thing if it was a male who got hurt?

I've also been hurt in all-female games, and my teammates didn't rush over to me to see if I was OK. They asked, and I was given time by the umpires to let the pain subside before continuing with the game, but it was the standard "it's part of the game" thing.

For me, when I get hurt, I need to deal with the pain on my own and be with myself to let it subside. I get very put off when people are there acting like I need so much nurturing.

[digglahhh]

I've gotten hurt a couple of times while playing in games where I was the only women there. When my teammates saw that I got hurt in some way, they rushed to me to see if I was OK... like they needed to help. I appreciated their concern for me, but I was fine and could still play, and I was very irritated and put off that they rushed over to me the way they did... like I couldn't take it and needed their help. I threw the ball over my shoulder behind me and walked off the field and told them I'm fine. I can't stand it when I'm patronized, whether it's intentional or not. Would they have done the same thing if it was a male who got hurt?

It is so hard to ascribe motive though. My girlfriend, working in sports, deals with the same thing. "Would he assume I didn't know that if I were a guy?..." There's really no way of telling. I'll tell you what I tell her. You have to be cognizant of both sides. You have to sensitive to and forthright about not being patronized or talked down to because of your sex. But, you also have to be weary of pre-judging somebody's motives when they are vague. Basically, be sensitive to the subtle forms of bias, but don't necessarily assume the worst in people. IF they would have done the same thing when if a male got hurt- then you become the one guilty of the charge you are accusing others of. It is a gut thing, and sometimes requires several instances before you are convinced one way or another.

Another time, I was playing a recreational softball game with some friends (and some beers). Pitching for the other team was a friend of a friend. She had played softball for her high-school. I hit a line drive right back up the middle that she couldn't react quick enough to get her glove on and knocked her out cold.

I guess, I just don't have good luck with these things. Maybe, in spite of my feminist bent, I'm just a subconscious misogynist...

[NotAboutEgo]

I agree, but it's the way they did it that bothered me. I was catching, and there was a play at the plate in which a guy was out by a mile (I got the ball and had to wait for him to get to the plate so I could tag him out). This guy decided he was going to collide with me anyway, so I stayed low and when he came barreling into me, I threw my shoulder into him and he went flying on his face. He ended up with a bloody and broken nose. Somehow, one of my fingers on my throwing hand got hit in the play, but it's something no one would have known unless I told them about it. Even though the guy on the other team was the one who went flying and landed on his face and I stayed low and held my position, the guys on my team came running out and asked me if I was OK in a cottling way. They didn't know at that moment that my finger got bruised on the play.

If it would have been a guy catching, would they have done the same thing? Why would they have asked if I was OK since I was the one who was still standing at the end? Even if it was a guy catching and they asked if he was OK, would they have done it in the same way? I held my own when the guy was trying to take me out. I didn't even notice my finger was hurt till I got to the bench and it was bruised and was hurting.

I think a lot of people have this notion that women are weaker when it comes to things like being in physical play in sports and holding their own if they collide with someone. From my experiences, the women I've seen can hold their own just as much, or more in a lot of cases, than the guys can. When I play roller hockey, there are many times when a player on the other team and I collide or bump into each other. That's the nature of the game, but most of the time I'm the one who's standing at the end while the guys go flying. It has to do with balance and knowing how to brace yourself and keep from falling. It's something I've learned to do from skating for so long.

It's kind of the same thing as when someone tells you that you've done a really good job at something, but they do it in a very patronizing way... whether the person telling you is a guy or a girl. Some people make it seem so insincere and fake and they go overboard with it, so it can give you a hint as to what angle they are coming from when they do it.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

I'm gonna jump in here.

I think that the problem is bigger than just sports. In society in general, it's considered wrong to hit a woman. On the same path, it is generally assumed that a woman is weaker than a man. While this is most likely true when it comes to the average man vs. the average woman, it's generally not the same when it comes to athletes.

The general societal belief that women are weaker, and more fragile than men (which is probably true in everyday life) carries over into the athletic world. The average woman would most likely admit that they are weaker than a man, and not really care. They would probably accept it, and some (the girly-girl type) might even use it to their advantage. However, a female athlete would most likely want to be treated the same as the men that she is playing against. But some men competing against that woman might not be able to see the women's perspective. The pressures and lessons of society that they have been taught all their life might force them to act differently towards the woman, even if they don't want to.

Even if the men were able to treat the women like normal, that might break down in a certain situation (like the one described by NotAboutEgo). The men have the sociological impression that women are weaker than men, and therefore they would want to see if they are okay, and offer their help moreso than if it was another guy. And if they didn't pay special attention to her they might be seen, by society, as someone who doesn't care about women.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the general trend in society (that women are weaker, and need more attention and care than men) has carried over into the "society" of sports. But the problem is that that trend doesn't apply to sports, because in sports the women want to be treated as equals, and not viewed differently.

*I'm sorry if I make any assumptions that are deemed ignorant. I think that I adequately represented women's views. If not, sorry.

[digglahhh]

One of the worst parts about being anything other than a white male is that you have to interpret the motives of others. Overt prejudice is horrible, but it is not as psychologically torturous as having to constantly question if the reason you are being treated a certain has to do with your sex, race or whatever.

A woman, especially when engaged in a male dominated field like athletics, is going to have to ask herself the question, "did he do/say that because I'm a woman?" over and over again. Law of averages states that even a very perceptive person will be wrong sometimes.

[NotAboutEgo]

Basically, what I'm saying is that the general trend in society (that women are weaker, and need more attention and care than men) has carried over into the "society" of sports. But the problem is that that trend doesn't apply to sports, because in sports the women want to be treated as equals, and not viewed differently.

*I'm sorry if I make any assumptions that are deemed ignorant. I think that I adequately represented women's views. If not, sorry.

Really good post. I agree with you 100%. I guess, since I've been an athlete all my life, I've never been the type who needed to be cottled by anyone, even men. So, from my perspective, I can't stand it when anyone does that to me, especially when it's in the sports arena. Perhaps, from a non-athlete woman (in general), the perspective is a lot different. It's just a perspective I don't know because of always having been involved in sports and physical activity with both males and females.

I remember being on the playground in elementary school... when the boys would tease the girls and taunt them. The girls would screach and act like they couldn't do anything and wouldn't stand up for themselves. On the other hand, if a boy bothered me, I'd take care of him, and he wouldn't bother me again. I remember thinking, "Why don't those girls defend themselves and take care of the boys?" I never could understand it back then. It has everything to do with how our society "shapes" young people.

I also agree that a lot of women use the "women are weaker" to their advantage, and I can't stand that, either. One of my biggest pet peeves is when women use men to do something, saying they aren't able to do it when they are, in fact, able to do it.

[NotAboutEgo]

One of the worst parts about being anything other than a white male is that you have to interpret the motives of others. Overt prejudice is horrible, but it is not as psychologically torturous as having to constantly question if the reason you are being treated a certain has to do with your sex, race or whatever.

A woman, especially when engaged in a male dominated field like athletics, is going to have to ask herself the question, "did he do/say that because I'm a woman?" over and over again. Law of averages states that even a very perceptive person will be wrong sometimes.

You are right. I hate it when the question comes up (in the form of a thought popping up), but that's what happens when someone has been treated a certain way for so long. The idea gets implanted and is hard to let go of.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Really good post. I agree with you 100%. I guess, since I've been an athlete all my life, I've never been the type who needed to be cottled by anyone, even men. So, from my perspective, I can't stand it when anyone does that to me, especially when it's in the sports arena. Perhaps, from a non-athlete woman (in general), the perspective is a lot different. It's just a perspective I don't know because of always having been involved in sports and physical activity with both males and females.

I remember being on the playground in elementary school... when the boys would tease the girls and taunt them. The girls would screach and act like they couldn't do anything and wouldn't stand up for themselves. On the other hand, if a boy bothered me, I'd take care of him, and he wouldn't bother me again. I remember thinking, "Why don't those girls defend themselves and take care of the boys?" I never could understand it back then. It has everything to do with how our society "shapes" young people.

I also agree that a lot of women use the "women are weaker" to their advantage, and I can't stand that, either. One of my biggest pet peeves is when women use men to do something, saying they aren't able to do it when they are, in fact, able to do it.

I'm taking a anthro/sociology class, and we discussed gender-roles today. It's all in the way we are brought up. Typically, women in society (until recently) were generally of the stay-at-home type, and the men were the breadwinners. The men had to provide for the family, and it was the women who were sensitive, and did most of the raising/nurturing. Feminism has begun to turn that around, but evidently not enough. As can be seen with the glass ceilings in business etc... women are still not seen as equal.

For women to be seen as equal in sports (or even to be given that chance), society is going to have to change a whole lot more. Maybe it will take something like what Jackie Robinson did to prove that women can compete, but that is going to take a phenominal women, both athletically and mentally.

As for the athletic side, what are your thoughts on women and men competing together physically?

[NotAboutEgo]

True... traditional roles dictated that men were the ones who worked and women were the ones who stayed home. But, why did that happen? Was it ONLY because women wanted to stay home and because men wanted to work instead of staying home? I highly disagree that this is the case. In some instances, maybe it is, but it also has to do with how men have dominated women throughout history. Women were told their place was at home and the man's palce was working and supporting a family. When one looks at traditions and roles throughout time, they also have to look at why they have happened the way they've happened.

What if a woman were to say, in the past when it was almost unheard of for a woman to work outside the home, she wanted to get a job and did... wonder if her husband beat her for doing so, and wonder if she wasn't strong enough to overcome that?

I mean, women had to wear dresses up until the 60's (my mom was one who fought to wear pants to school). Yes, women did contribute to their homemaking role in some way, but it's the way men have dominated women that has done the most damage.

IMO, there are a lot less women today who are "willing" to put up with being told how to be. When a certain group of people has been dominated and persecuted for a certain amount of time, they will eventually step up to the plate and will fight back to knock down those who have dominated them for so long. It's very unnatural to control, so control can last only so long.

[NotAboutEgo]

physically[/I]?

I disagree that it will take a phenomenal woman to be able to compete in men's pro sports (if that's what you meant). It's not going to take a female superhero to be great. The size and strength factor (by the strength factor, I mean women who can handle getting smashed around by men who are bigger than they are, because that's what seems to be the focus in a lot of men's sports today). There are plenty of women out their who are very mentally strong and who can handle the crap they get when being in a male dominated arena. Just because women are more open to showing emotions (as researchers and psychologists and such say) doesn't mean they are mentally weak. Society likes to try to dictate how men and women handle things. Guys are told from the time they are born that they shouldn't show emotion because it makes them look weak and threatens their manhood. What a bunch of cr@p. I'll take a guy who shows emotion over a guy who doesn't show emotion any day. People who are afraid to show emotion are the ones who are most insecure and who have trouble with handling certain situations... like women competing with men in sports.

No one can tell at this time whether women can compete in pro baseball with men, because women baseball players have never been given the same opportunities and luxuries as men have to be a pro baseball player. But, IMO, there are plenty of women out there who would be able to. Everyone talks about how women can't throw in the 90's, but I see many, many MLB players striking out and not being able to hit guys who can't throw or who can barely throw in the 90's. Why weren't the Yankees able to hit Kenny Rogers in the American League playoffs last season? If some of you are saying it's because Rogers doesn't throw as hard as other guys, that's a cop out. If you're good enough to be in MLB, you should be able to adjust to different speeds.

I have absolutely no problem with men and women competing together. Why does everything have to be so segregated all the time? If someone is good enough, why can't they play, regardless of gender or color of skin or whatever? I've played sports most of my life, with both males and females. I certainly can play just as good and even better than men can... and so can so many other women who do the same thing. If I couldn't hang with them, I would probably stop trying at some point.

This goes along with how people seem to think being male means you are naturally good at any sport... better than women and able to beat them at any time. This is one of the biggest misconceptions of all time. I have seen just as many guys who completely suck at sports as women who suck at them. Some people just aren't cut out to be athletes, regardless of gender.

[FindAGap12]

Why weren't the Yankees able to hit Kenny Rogers in the American League playoffs last season? If some of you are saying it's because Rogers doesn't throw as hard as other guys, that's a cop out.

Kenny Rogers was throwing 94 MPH in that game. Several Yankees were quoted as saying that thay have never seen him throw that hard.

The best female player in the world, is, at best, a borderline low-level minor leaguer. This is not about predjudice or Society, but about the fact that NO ONE gets drafted unless they are 90 MPH any more, and that there isn't a woman alive who can throw 90. There is no female alive capable of hitting the ball 400 feet with a wood bat either. 95% of pro ball players can do either of these things.

Ila Borders played Independent Ball, as a publicity stunt. She couldn't break 80 MPH. If a male went to a pro try out throwing 77-78 like she did, they would get laughed at. Pro scouting is all about measureables, tools. The best females out there may has the tool set of an average Division III player.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

As for the societal issue, it seems we are in agreement. I certainly wasn't saying that it was right for women to be confined (by societal pressures) to the stay-at-home role, but it was the truth. But just like everything, eventually enough women got fed up with it and it's beginning to change.

As for the idea of a woman in MLB, I don't think that I came accross the way I wanted to. I didn't mean to say that women aren't capable of handling mental stress. However, not everyone would be able to cope with the stress of being the first woman in MLB (just as many blacks wouldn't have been able to cope with being the first African-American in MLB, which is what makes Jackie Robinson's accomplishment even greater). It was just a comment to the effect that it will take lots of change in society to bring us to the point where a woman will be able to make that jump. And even when we get to that point, that woman will have to be mentally tough, just as Jackie Robinson was.

As for the physical aspect, I can't say that I have ever seen a woman play baseball. Therefore, I can't pass any judgement. However, the fact that a woman might not be able to throw with as much velocity (whether this is true or not, I don't know) shouldn't have any importance. While a woman might not come into MLB as a power-pitcher or a power-hitter , they could easily come in as a middle-infielder, finesse pitcher etc... Heck, even a knuckleballer. I'm not saying that they should be segregated to these roles but, in all honesty, it is probably more likely. Would you agree?

Overall, and I think you'd agree, the problem is a societal one. We live in a society where men are continually viewed as superior, despite our best efforts. Subconciously, most men feel weak when beaten by a woman at something. Even if you realize that the woman is better than you, your friends (even though they might realize that the woman is better) will make mock of you for being beaten by a woman.

Lots of things need to change.

-Geoff

[NotAboutEgo]

Kenny Rogers was throwing 94 MPH in that game. Several Yankees were quoted as saying that thay have never seen him throw that hard.

The best female player in the world, is, at best, a borderline low-level minor leaguer. This is not about predjudice or Society, but about the fact that NO ONE gets drafted unless they are 90 MPH any more, and that there isn't a woman alive who can throw 90. There is no female alive capable of hitting the ball 400 feet with a wood bat either. 95% of pro ball players can do either of these things.

Ila Borders played Independent Ball, as a publicity stunt. She couldn't break 80 MPH. If a male went to a pro try out throwing 77-78 like she did, they would get laughed at. Pro scouting is all about measureables, tools. The best females out there may has the tool set of an average Division III player.

94 miles an hour is close to an average velocity in MLB... so why couldn't the Yankees hit him in that game?

Have you ever seen the best female in the world? As I've stated many times on here, no one will ever know how a woman would compete if she was given the same opportunities, luxuries, training, etc. as a male in MLB until it happens. You're talking about comparing women who haven't been able to play in college and in high school, except for a handful, much less in pro ball. Get off the Ila Borders kick. You're comparing ONE female to hundreds/thousands of MLB players. Doesn't seem like a very fair comparison to me.

Women can hit better and farther than you think. There are women who throw in the 80's. You just haven't seen them play. I don't know if there are women who can hit 400 foot homeruns with wood bats, and I don't know if there are women who can throw in the 90's, but I do know one thing... I'm not saying there aren't any out there and there will never be. Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Have you ever seen a female play baseball?

[NotAboutEgo]

As for the societal issue, it seems we are in agreement. I certainly wasn't saying that it was right for women to be confined (by societal pressures) to the stay-at-home role, but it was the truth. But just like everything, eventually enough women got fed up with it and it's beginning to change.

As for the idea of a woman in MLB, I don't think that I came accross the way I wanted to. I didn't mean to say that women aren't capable of handling mental stress. However, not everyone would be able to cope with the stress of being the first woman in MLB (just as many blacks wouldn't have been able to cope with being the first African-American in MLB, which is what makes Jackie Robinson's accomplishment even greater). It was just a comment to the effect that it will take lots of change in society to bring us to the point where a woman will be able to make that jump. And even when we get to that point, that woman will have to be mentally tough, just as Jackie Robinson was.

I agree. When big changes come about, a lot of people can't handle it (not the players, but people who just watch the game who can't handle change), so there will be some kind of mental pressure and all that from it. Many women who play baseball in high school and college today put up with a lot... not just from the other teams but also from their own teams. That's the reason Ila Borders left the pro game.

As for the physical aspect, I can't say that I have ever seen a woman play baseball. Therefore, I can't pass any judgement. However, the fact that a woman might not be able to throw with as much velocity (whether this is true or not, I don't know) shouldn't have any importance. While a woman might not come into MLB as a power-pitcher or a power-hitter , they could easily come in as a middle-infielder, finesse pitcher etc... Heck, even a knuckleballer. I'm not saying that they should be segregated to these roles but, in all honesty, it is probably more likely. Would you agree?

Perhaps women wouldn't be able to throw as hard as the guys, but it's not all about velocity and power, as you stated. A woman who can get hitters out however she can do it would be able to pitch in MLB. Somehow, most people tend to think that power is the only thing that matters. While it's awesome to see a pitcher mow hitters down at the plate, I like to see pitchers with less velocity be just as successful by using location and different pitches. Power won't give you everything. Take Matt Anderson, for example. Besides not having a lot of control, he had no off speed pitches, and therefore, hitters soon learned how to hit him.

I wouldn't bank on saying women can't be power hitters in the pros. They may not be as big as most guys, but I've seen some women who can flat out hit. I've also seen women who can flat out throw. I've faced some of those women. I played with a catcher who could throw on a line... not a blob... but on a flat line... down to 2nd without taking a step. She's amazing. I'm sure she's not the only woman out there who can do that. Women play on the same size fields as men do.

It's hard to tell how women would do if they did play in MLB, but I won't ever say a woman, or anyone for that matter, isn't capable of something. That is so limiting and is a far stretch. Others on here like to be fast to jump to the limiting conclusion that women will never be as good and therefore, aren't good enough for pro ball with men. I like to think that people can aspire to higher levels if they really want to and know how to.

Overall, and I think you'd agree, the problem is a societal one. We live in a society where men are continually viewed as superior, despite our best efforts. Subconciously, most men feel weak when beaten by a woman at something. Even if you realize that the woman is better than you, your friends (even though they might realize that the woman is better) will make mock of you for being beaten by a woman.

Lots of things need to change.

-Geoff

I agree with you 100%... a million times over... with that. It's funny how the guys who act like they are the toughest are actually the ones who are the weakest... the ones who can't handle being beaten by women. What an oxymoron.

[Nolie]

I'm going to save the arguement and just simply disagree with you.

Agreed, it'll never happen!

[FindAGap12]

Have you ever seen the best female in the world? As I've stated many times on here, no one will ever know how a woman would compete if she was given the same opportunities, luxuries, training, etc. as a male in MLB until it happens. You're talking about comparing women who haven't been able to play in college and in high school, except for a handful, much less in pro ball. Get off the Ila Borders kick. You're comparing ONE female to hundreds/thousands of MLB players. Doesn't seem like a very fair comparison to me.

Women can hit better and farther than you think. There are women who throw in the 80's. You just haven't seen them play. I don't know if there are women who can hit 400 foot homeruns with wood bats, and I don't know if there are women who can throw in the 90's, but I do know one thing... I'm not saying there aren't any out there and there will never be. Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Have you ever seen a female play baseball?

Yes, I have. The Silver Bullets. they won 20% of their games against middle of the road Amateur teams. They played at, maybe, an average Varsity HS level. No one threw 80. They didn't hit a HR until their 3rd season. They (the best females) had the skill sets of an average HS player. Average HS players do not get a shot at Pro ball.

I think that you are grossly underestimating the physical skills necessary to play professional baseball.

[JeepingBaseball]

Agreed, it'll never happen!

My quote was a reference to the poster before that quote. To take it now and apply it to this extended convo would be taken out of content. I do think women should have their own league in MLB. Never say never. I'll come back to bite you in the ass one day when you're not looking.

[NotAboutEgo]

Yes, I have. The Silver Bullets. they won 20% of their games against middle of the road Amateur teams. They played at, maybe, an average Varsity HS level. No one threw 80. They didn't hit a HR until their 3rd season. They (the best females) had the skill sets of an average HS player. Average HS players do not get a shot at Pro ball.

I think that you are grossly underestimating the physical skills necessary to play professional baseball.

I don't consider the Silver Bullets the best female baseball players. I have played with and against many of them, and my sister and I attended what was called a Silver Bullets tryout... which was nothing but a publicity stunt. As far as the ones I've seen play, they aren't standout/superstar caliber players. They are at the same level as many of us who play baseball today. Also, I'm sure many of those women who played for the Silver Bullets didn't play baseball growing up... in high school or college or even recreational ball. So, it's hard to compare them to guys who grew up playing real baseball.

Like I said in another post, I don't know how good a woman would do in MLB, but I don't have limiting views of it, so if a woman is good enough, let her play. I certainly don't think it's impossible. To say that women will never do this or that is jumping to huge conclusions.

[digglahhh]

Why do so many men presume that it is a given that the only way women can graduate to "pro ball" is the integrate MLB?

I don't think NAE is arguing that that females en masse will be able to compete the best male athletes in the sport. She's not sitting here saying, that if given the change the league would be 50% women in the next twenty years.

What she is saying is that because of societal prejudice women are denied and discouraged from playing high level, and eventually professional, ball. They are siphoned off on to the softball track from an early age.

What NAE is saying is that the top level women ballplayers are a largely undefined quantity. Many are discouraged from the path to begin with, most who march face very limited competitive options and scarce resources allocated for their pursuit.

The point is that what women ballplayers are is largely undefined because we haven't seen what would really happen if society encouraged women and supported women who wanted to play baseball professionally.

Perhaps what would result is a WNBA type thing. Perhaps a handful might be good enough and want to play in the majors. But that is not the only option. NAE's point is that there are so many obstacles to creation- remove them, create more talented women ballplayers through support and resources and then find out how to organize them competitively. The fact that women would still have a very difficult time making inroads into MLB on the basis of strength and skill is not withstanding.

[pitcher23]

Why do so many men presume that it is a given that the only way women can graduate to "pro ball" is the integrate MLB?

I don't think NAE is arguing that that females en masse will be able to compete the best male athletes in the sport. She's not sitting here saying, that if given the change the league would be 50% women in the next twenty years.

What she is saying is that because of societal prejudice women are denied and discouraged from playing high level, and eventually professional, ball. They are siphoned off on to the softball track from an early age.

What NAE is saying is that the top level women ballplayers are a largely undefined quantity. Many are discouraged from the path to begin with, most who march face very limited competitive options and scarce resources allocated for their pursuit.

The point is that what women ballplayers are is largely undefined because we haven't seen what would really happen if society encouraged women and supported women who wanted to play baseball professionally.

Perhaps what would result is a WNBA type thing. Perhaps a handful might be good enough and want to play in the majors. But that is not the only option. NAE's point is that there are so many obstacles to creation- remove them, create more talented women ballplayers through support and resources and then find out how to organize them competitively. The fact that women would still have a very difficult time making inroads into MLB on the basis of strength and skill is not withstanding.

There have been a lot of discussions here about whether women can compete with men in baseball. Many of the arguments against that possibility use MLB as the sole comparison. Arguments stating women cannot compete are unfair based on the fact there is no reasonable way to support them. Not until women have all of the benefits that men have will that argument be able to be supported. That includes having all of the practice and playing possibilities, basically since birth, as males do now. Yes, some girls do play now while young, but they do not have the support as they grow older. It will take at least a generation before a reasonable argument can be supported or shot down, that is if things were to all of a sudden become equal today. Males did not all of a sudden become as proficient as some are now just in one generation. Many things have gone into the practices/playing opportunities that have improved their overall abilities. Until women have these same opportunities, we will not be able to accurately declare whether women can or cannot compete with men. To make that declaration now is based on individual attitudes and unfair comparisons, like comparing apples to oranges. I maintain there are many women now who can compete with many men - forget about the professional ranks, most men cannot compete with professionals. Until women get the same opportunities from early childhood that men have, all arguments are based on individual biases and an all encompassing statement that women can never compete with men cannot be definitively supported. Let's just work together to get women these same opportunities and then debate the issue when it is truly equal.

[NotAboutEgo]

Why do so many men presume that it is a given that the only way women can graduate to "pro ball" is the integrate MLB?

Because that is where their limited thought patterns lie... and not beyond that. It's funny how anytime women's pro ball is brought up, a popular opinion among men is that women will never be good enough to play in MLB... yet, they fail to mention how many men are NOT good enough to play in MLB. Given the number of men who play baseball in college and the minors, MOST of them don't have a chance of playing in MLB. Their chances of getting hit by lightning probably are greater . Women have NEVER been given anywhere near the same opportunities as men have been given, so comparing women baseball players to MLB players is so far off kilter it isn't funny.

Since those men (and women) who think MLB is the only way women can play pro ball have limited thinking, MLB is the only thing that exists to them, so they'll compare everything to it.

I don't think NAE is arguing that that females en masse will be able to compete the best male athletes in the sport. She's not sitting here saying, that if given the change the league would be 50% women in the next twenty years.

What she is saying is that because of societal prejudice women are denied and discouraged from playing high level, and eventually professional, ball. They are siphoned off on to the softball track from an early age.

What NAE is saying is that the top level women ballplayers are a largely undefined quantity. Many are discouraged from the path to begin with, most who march face very limited competitive options and scarce resources allocated for their pursuit.

The point is that what women ballplayers are is largely undefined because we haven't seen what would really happen if society encouraged women and supported women who wanted to play baseball professionally.

Perhaps what would result is a WNBA type thing. Perhaps a handful might be good enough and want to play in the majors. But that is not the only option. NAE's point is that there are so many obstacles to creation- remove them, create more talented women ballplayers through support and resources and then find out how to organize them competitively. The fact that women would still have a very difficult time making inroads into MLB on the basis of strength and skill is not withstanding.

Exactly!!!

[NotAboutEgo]

There have been a lot of discussions here about whether women can compete with men in baseball. Many of the arguments against that possibility use MLB as the sole comparison. Arguments stating women cannot compete are unfair based on the fact there is no reasonable way to support them. Not until women have all of the benefits that men have will that argument be able to be supported. That includes having all of the practice and playing possibilities, basically since birth, as males do now. Yes, some girls do play now while young, but they do not have the support as they grow older. It will take at least a generation before a reasonable argument can be supported or shot down, that is if things were to all of a sudden become equal today. Males did not all of a sudden become as proficient as some are now just in one generation. Many things have gone into the practices/playing opportunities that have improved their overall abilities. Until women have these same opportunities, we will not be able to accurately declare whether women can or cannot compete with men. To make that declaration now is based on individual attitudes and unfair comparisons, like comparing apples to oranges. I maintain there are many women now who can compete with many men - forget about the professional ranks, most men cannot compete with professionals. Until women get the same opportunities from early childhood that men have, all arguments are based on individual biases and an all encompassing statement that women can never compete with men cannot be definitively supported. Let's just work together to get women these same opportunities and then debate the issue when it is truly equal.

Yep, yep... excalty. We all know (the ones without the limited thoughts and who have actually seen women play men) women can compete with men in baseball. It happens all the time all over the place. Using one person as an example (like Ila Borders) or one team (like the Silver Bullets) doesn't even qualify as a valid comparison, because it's looking at ONLY ONE case. I'm sure the guys on here who constantly slam women and say they will never be good enough have never seen a game beyond a Silver Bullets game, if they've even seen that. A LOT has happened in women's baseball since then, and there are hundreds, thousands, of women around the world who certainly can compete with men.

I attended a Silver Bullets tryout, and belive me, if that's how they picked all of their players, I can see why the team didn't fair well most of the time. The girls they picked (supposedly) from that tryout couldn't even make contact with the ball while hitting (BP speed). That was about 5 women out of 100+.

[winningtheweapon]

How about that Katie Brownlow from NY. She's AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you think she, or any other woman will ever participate as a player in the major Leagues? I'd love to hear from you guys

Never in the history of mankind. End of discussion.