BBF Mock HoF Election: 1983

[DoubleX]

Welcome to Baseball Fever's Mock HoF Election for 1983. The goal of this project is to conduct Hall of Fame elections from 1979-2007, as if we were the BBWAA, and then compare our results to the actual BBWAA results. For the most part, we will proceed just like BBWAA does. 1979 was selected as the start date as that is when the BBWAA elections first implemented the 5% rule (though it was not always adhered to).

This post will provide two things:

1) The Format and Rules

2) A Guide for the 1981 Election


Format and Rules
- The BBF ballot will consist of the same players that were on the BBWAA ballot, except for in instances where we have elected, dropped, or sustained on the ballot different players than the BBWAA (which will likely be quite a few).

- Voters may vote for between 0-10 candidates. A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot.

- Adjusting Ballots: Anyone who votes for more than 10 candidates will have all their votes discounted unless they inform me within 48 hours of submitting their vote (or the close of the election, whichever comes first) of the mistake and which players they wish to discount. In such a situation, if I am not informed of the players to be dropped, I will discount that voter's entire ballot. Additionally, if a voter habitually submits a ballot with more than 10 players, they risk having their votes discounted in all present and future elections. Otherwise, there will be no adjusting ballots after submitted, even if you forgot to vote for someone you meant to vote for or clicked on the wrong player. So please think carefully about your ballot before voting and make sure you have selected everyone you intend to vote for (up to 10).

- 75% support or greater will elect a player. Players receiving less than 5% will dropped from all future elections (even if in reality, that player was included in future BBWAA elections). Players receiving 5% or more but less than 75% will stay on the ballot for the next election, unless that player's 15-year eligibility is over.

- The election will close exactly a week after it started. The next election might not commence for another day or two.

- IMPORTANT: There is some concern about voters defrauding this process by voting with multiple screen names. First, please don't as there is really no point and it takes the fun out of this which is to see how we come out, more than it being a heated competition to get your player elected. Nevertheless, to take precaution against the possibility of a voter abusing the process, votes will be made public, so if we see unfamiliar screen names casting similar ballots, we'll see cause for concern, and if the concern proves to be founded, some form of punitive action could follow. So basically, ONE PERSON = ONE BALLOT. Anything else is really just moronic and defeats the purpose.

- This thread is also meant to be a discussion thread, so please feel free to stump for and/or against players, including players that will come up for election in the following year.


1983 Guide
There are 40 candidates on the 1983 ballot. Here's some information regarding the candidates:

First Timers (23)
Dick Allen
Mike Cuellar
Larry Dierker
Pat Dobson
Al Downing
Dave Giusti
Tommy Helms
Joe Hoerner
Randy Hundley
Carlos May
Kevin McMullen
Bill Melton
Felix Milan
Gary Nolan
Boog Powell
Doug Rader
Brooks Robinson
Cookie Rojas
Ray Sadecki
Diego Segui
Bill Singer
Joe Torre
Jimmy Wynn

Holdovers (17)

Player			Year of Eligibility	High BBF Support	Previous Year’s BBF Support
Luis Aparicio		5th			59.68% (1980)			45.45%
Ken Boyer		9th			29.09% (1982)			29.09%
Jim Bunning		7th			51.61% (1980)			43.64%
Norm Cash		4th			18.18% (1981)			18.18%
Orlando Cepeda		4th			64.52% (1980)			56.36%
Don Drysdale		9th			74.19% (1980)			69.09%
Curt Flood		8th			11.86% (1981)			5.45%
Nellie Fox		12th			56.45% (1980)			52.73%
Bill Freehan		2nd			27.27% (1982)			27.27%
Gil Hodges		15th			27.42% (1980)			20.00%
Frank Howard		5th			20.00% (1982)			20.00%
Bill Mazeroski		6th			37.10% (1980)			20.00%
Thurman Munson		3rd			16.95% (1981)			5.45%
Tony Oliva		2nd			14.55% (1982)			14.55%
Vada Pinson		3rd			13.56% (1981)			7.27%
Red Schoendienst	15th			22.58% (1980)			12.73%
Maury Wills		6th			13.56% (1981)			10.91%

Last Year of Eligibility
Gil Hodges
Red Schoendienst

Players on BBF Ballot not on BBWAA Ballot
Ken Boyer - Dropped by BBWAA (1979)
Norm Cash – Dropped by BBWAA (1980)
Curt Flood - Dropped by BBWAA (1979)
Bill Freehan – Dropped by BBWAA (1982)
Frank Howard - Dropped by BBWAA (1979)

Players on BBWAA Ballot not on BBF Ballot
Lew Burdette - Dropped by BBF (1979)
Elston Howard – Dropped by BBF (1981)
Roy Face - Dropped by BBF (1979)
Harmon Killebrew – Elected by BBF (1981)
Harvey Kuenn - Dropped by BBF (1979)
Don Larsen – Dropped by BBF (1980)
Juan Marichal – Elected by BBF (1981)
Roger Maris – Dropped by BBF (1982)
Jim Perry – Dropped by BBF (1981)*
Hoyt Wilhelm - Elected by BBF (1979)
Billy Williams – Elected by BBF (1980)

* These players were on previous BBWAA ballots but never received at least 5% from the BBWAA and were put on this ballot anyway. This seems to be a trend of the Screening Committee during the 1980s.

[U[Players Elected by BBF but Dropped by BBWAA[/U]
Ron Santo – Elected by BBF in 1980; Dropped by BBWAA in 1980 (though he was reintroduced in 1985 and stayed until 1998)

Actual Hall of Famers on BBF Ballot
Luis Aparicio (BBWAA - 1984)
Jim Bunning (VC - 1996)
Orlando Cepeda (VC - 1999)
Don Drysdale (BBWAA - 1984)
Nellie Fox (VC - 1997)
Bill Mazeroski (VC - 2001)
Brooks Robinson (BBWAA – 1983)
Red Schoendienst (VC - 1989)

Players Elected by BBF

Player			BBF Election Year	BBF Election Percentage	Year on Ballot
Hank Aaron		1982			100.00%			1st
Richie Ashburn		1979			75.41%			12th (1st for BBF)
Bob Gibson		1981			89.83%			1st
Al Kaline		1980			90.32%			1st
Harmon Killebrew	1981			93.22%			1st
Juan Marichal		1981			79.66%			1st
Willie Mays		1979			98.36%			1st
Frank Robinson		1982			100.00%			1st
Ron Santo		1980			82.26%			1st
Duke Snider		1979			83.61%			10th (1st for BBF)
Hoyt Wilhelm		1979			77.05%			2nd (1st for BBF)
Billy Williams		1982			80.00%			1st

Players Elected by BBWAA Between 1979-1982
Hank Aaron (1982)
Bob Gibson (1981)
Al Kaline (1980)
Willie Mays (1979)
Frank Robinson (1982)
Duke Snider (1980)

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past BBF Elections
1979: 61
1980: 62
1981: 59
1982: 55

[DoubleX]

Welcome to 1983! While the new class lacks the punch of multiple bona fide Hall of Famers that we've had in the past, it's still a strong class IMO, and should make for some interesting debates/results. Might also provide an opportunity for us to break our trend of elected players on their first year with us and get in some of these holdovers, headed by Drysdale, Cepeda and Fox.

Brooks Robinson highlights the newcomers, but we could see strong candidacies from players like Dick Allen, Boog Powell, Joe Torre, and Jimmy Wynn.

Also, this is the last year of eligibility for Schoendienst and Hodges, so strong supporters of those players might want to plead their cases early on, if for nothing else, then perhaps to help convince people to vote for them in the VC Elections that I believe Freakshow will start conducting in the near future (I believe it will come after the close of this election).

[Erik Bedard]

Drysdale's back up to 100%... so are Allen, Bunning, Cepeda, Fox, Mazeroski, Oliva, Robinson, Torre, and Wynn.

[Westlake]

Voted for:

Allen
Cepeda
Drysdale
Mazeroski
Robinson

[John Shoemaker]

I voted for:

Frank Howard
Orlando cepeda
Norm Cash
Gil Hodges ( in his last year of eligibility )
Dick Allen
Boog Powell

[AlecBoy006]

Nooooooooo! Please no Drysdale!

[digglahhh]

Nooooooooo! Please no Drysdale!

Please stop with these posts. They contribute nothing to the discussion.

We all know that you don't support Drysdale.

If you want to articulate a case for why he doesn't measure up the HOF bar, then we're all ears.

Note, I said articulate a case, cutting and pasting some numbers from his BBRef page (that, we too, have easy access to) does not count.

Just crying out "Don't elect this guy." is a waste of time and space.

In fact, I issue you a challenge to compose a convincing case for Drysdale's inadequacy.

[John Shoemaker]

This should be an interesting round. Last round we had 2 unanimious players with 55 voters. This round we have had only 13 voters and already every player has dropped at least 2 votes.

[digglahhh]

Interesting- no Inner Circle locks on this ballot, but by far my longest ballot.

1. Allen
2. Boyer (first voted for him last year, voted again)
3. Cepeda (been voting for him since he was first eligible)
4. Drysdale (ditto)
5. Freehan (new addition to my ballot)
6. Howard (ditto)
7. Robinson
8. Torre

italics indicate first year of eligibility

[AlecBoy006]

Ok, I will.


1) Drysdale had 1 Cy Young he didn't deserve and one POY. In the same year.

2) Drysdale is in the Hall of Fame, but Luis Tiant should be in before him, because he has a better winning percentage, better record, and has longevity over Drysdale.

3) Drysdale had Koufax to help him.

4) His defense is bad.

5) Only average in postseason play.

6) Many times wasn't very accurate with pitching. 5 times led league in hit batsmen.

7) Bert Blyleven had more strikeouts, wins, played longer, and is still only 3 points behind in ERA+

[leecemark]

Ok, I will.


1) Drysdale had 1 Cy Young he didn't deserve and one POY. In the same
year.

Why didn't he deserve it?

2) Drysdale is in the Hall of Fame, but Luis Tiant should be in before him, because he has a better winning percentage, better record, and has longevity over Drysdale.

Tiant is not on the ballot at this time. Even if you think he is better, its isn't like you have to choose between them.

3) Drysdale had Koufax to help him.

Gehrig had Ruth to "help" him. What exactly does this mean.

6) Many times wasn't very accurate with pitching. 5 times led league in hit batsmen.

I think those hit batsmen indicate good accuracy, not bad


7) Bert Blyleven had more strikeouts, wins, played longer, and is still only 3 points behind in ERA+

Blyleven probably is more deserving, but he is not on this ballot and once he is eligible in this project he will probably be quickly elected.

[DoubleX]

1) Drysdale had 1 Cy Young he didn't deserve and one POY. In the same year.

Who then did deserve the Cy Young in '62? Bob Purkey has the best case, IMO, but there really was no clear frontrunner. Purkey had a nice ERA+ edge over Drysdale, 142-128, but Drysdale had a sizeable lead in IP (314-288) which narrows the ERA+ gap, a very small lead in WHIP (1.11-1.12), a huge lead in strikeouts (232-141), and a big lead in K:BB ration (2.97:1 to 2.20:1). 1962 was a fairly weak year for pitchers, but Drysdale's case is as good, if not better, than anyone else.

2) Drysdale is in the Hall of Fame, but Luis Tiant should be in before him, because he has a better winning percentage, better record, and has longevity over Drysdale.

What does "Tiant should be in" have to do with Drysdale? You think Tiant has better longevity? He stuck around longer, yet he only pitched 54 more total innings than Drysdale - that's barely anything. Consider that - Drysdale, by age 32, pitched just about as many innings as Tiant did by age 41. Tiant just once in his career had a 300 IP season, Drysdale did it four years in a row. Tiant pitched until he was older because he wasn't abused like Drysdale was, and if he was abused like Drysdale was, it's unlikely that Tiant would have been as successful as Drysdale under that much duress.

Drysdale also has leads in:

ERA+: 121-114
WHIP: 1.114-1.199
K:BB: 2.91:1-2.19:1
Ks: 2486-2416
IP/162: 237.3-224

Tiant, IMO, has a strong borderline case, but he's fairly considerably behind Drysdale, IMO.

3) Drysdale had Koufax to help him.

How exactly does that help him? Koufax wasn't even playing on the days Drysdale pitched - Drysdale was out there by himself then.

4) His defense is bad.

Since when does a pitchers defense really matter? I suspect most Hall of Fame pitchers were average defensively at best. Who cares - their defensive contributions are minimal at best.

On the other hand, Drysdale was actually a pretty good hitter for a pitcher, but I don't see you mentioning that.

5) Only average in postseason play.

2.95 ERA in 40 IP seems pretty successful to me.

6) Many times wasn't very accurate with pitching. 5 times led league in hit batsmen.

That didn't so much have to do with poor control, it was his style. It's very well known that Drysdale relished in intimidating batters, and batters took notice. He pitched inside and he went after hitters. It was his style that result in hits batsmen, not his poor control.

7) Bert Blyleven had more strikeouts, wins, played longer, and is still only 3 points behind in ERA+

I agree that Blyleven is the better pitcher, but again, these one on one comparisons don't really advance much in arguing one player's Hall of Fame candidacy.

[DoubleX]

I voted for the maximum 10 players for the first time:

Dick Allen
Luis Aparicio
Ken Boyer
Orlando Cepeda
Don Drysdale
Nellie Fox
Bill Freehan
Red Schoendienst
Brooks Robinson
Joe Torre

I have not voted for Schoendienst since 1979, but I figure if I see a player as very borderline and they make it to their 15th year, I'll vote for them in that year if I haven't been voting for them already. I'll probably give the same treatment to Frank Howard if/when the time comes. Jim Bunning and Bill Mazeroski are also possibilities, but I doubt it at this point. Hodges is a little too far on the outside for me to do the same, though I wouldn't really object if he were put in one day.

[AlecBoy006]

Yeah- a 2.95 ERA is pretty good, but he 3-3.

[leecemark]

I voted for the maximum 10 players for the first time:

Dick Allen
Luis Aparicio
Ken Boyer
Orlando Cepeda
Don Drysdale
Nellie Fox
Bill Freehan
Red Schoendienst
Brooks Robinson
Joe Torre

I have not voted for Schoendienst since 1979, but I figure if I see a player as very borderline and they make it to their 15th year, I'll vote for them in that year if I haven't been voting for them already. I'll probably give the same treatment to Frank Howard if/when the time comes. Jim Bunning and Bill Mazeroski are also possibilities, but I doubt it at this point. Hodges is a little too far on the outside for me to do the same, though I wouldn't really object if he were put in one day.

--I have the same 10 and Red made it back on for the same reason.

[vtbub]

I didn't vote for Allen and was surprised to see him do so well. When I looked him up, he seems borderline. If he doesn't get in this time, why should I vote for him next time?

[leecemark]

--Because he was a truely dominating hitter. Allen was probably the best hitter to debut in the decade of the 60s, although a few other guys may have compiled a little more career value. Allen didn't have an especially long carrer, but the combination of quality and quantity puts him easily over the line IMO.

[AlecBoy006]

Allen has an OPS+ of 156. Look at that alone and he should be in.

[BoofBonser26]

Out of curiosity, for those NOT voting for Brooks Robinson, what's your case against him? I personally voted for him.

[DoubleX]

I didn't vote for Allen and was surprised to see him do so well. When I looked him up, he seems borderline. If he doesn't get in this time, why should I vote for him next time?

I agree that if you take just a quick glance at Allen's raw statistics, they don't especially jump out at you and seemed to be in the same territory as a number of very good, but not Hall of Fame players. But he was really a dominating hitter and his raw statistics were depressed due to the era he played in. Looking past the raw stats, the first thing that really jumps out at me is the 156 OPS+. That's incredible - good for 18th all time for players with at least 5000 Major League plate appearances. His peak was truly amazing from an OPS+ standpoint, year after year for a 12 year period his OPS+ was between 145-200. That's very impressive.

He also has four OPS titles, 3 slugging titles, 2 OBP titles, 2 HR titles (finished 2nd two other years), and finished in the top 10 in BAT 6 times. He was an incredible all around hitter. Plus he won an MVP award and had 7 All Star appearances.

From a Win Shares perspective, he twice had at least 40 win shares, leading the league both of those years and had three other seasons with at least 32.

Overall, on career value, he's lacking a little, but he more than makes up for that on peak, IMO, and his raw numbers, becacuse of his era, don't really tell you how good a hitter he really was.

[AlecBoy006]

I vote for Robinson, but here is what may not attract people.

Here is his BA, OBP, SLG, and OPS+

.267 .322 .401 104

[John Shoemaker]

--Because he was a truely dominating hitter. Allen was probably the best hitter to debut in the decade of the 60s, although a few other guys may have compiled a little more career value. Allen didn't have an especially long carrer, but the combination of quality and quantity puts him easily over the line IMO.

I completely agree with you. Dick Allen was a tremendous hitter and should be in the hall of fame without question.

[DoubleX]

I'm surprised Joe Torre isn't get more support thus far. Normally, Torre would be just on the outside for me, but his 129 OPS+ while playing mostly C and 3B, is good enough, IMO. Depending on how you feel about Bill Freehan's advantage in games caught, Torre was arguably the best catcher in baseball between Berra and Bench, and certainly one of the best hitting catchers of all time. In the five season period of 1963-1967, his average OPS+ was 138. That's a tremendous offensive peak for a catcher. After a few more productive years at catcher and some at 1B as well, he went on to be a productive 3Bman, including a tremendous MVP campaign in 1971 in which he won 2/3 of the Triple Crown and which has to rank up there as one of the finest seasons ever by a 3Bman. He was also a 9 time All Star.

[John Shoemaker]

I'm surprised at the lack of support for Boog Powell. Although he was overshadowed by Frank Robinson and probably Brooks Robinson he was a big part of Baltimore's success and in my opinion worthy of much more support than he is getting.

[iPod]

1) Drysdale had 1 Cy Young he didn't deserve and one POY. In the same year.

It's debatable whether he deserved it, but there are many pitchers in the Hall of Fame who never won a Cy Young Award. Ryan, Marichal, Bunning, and Sutton come to mind. Consistently being amongst the best pitchers in the league is more important; Drysdale was, actually and in reputation.

2) Drysdale is in the Hall of Fame, but Luis Tiant should be in before him, because he has a better winning percentage, better record, and has longevity over Drysdale.

That's a (poorly contructed) case for Tiant, not a case against Drysdale.

3) Drysdale had Koufax to help him.

What is this even supposed to mean? This isn't like protection in the batting order. Drysdale was by himself out there on the mound.

4) His defense is bad.

So was Koufax's, incidentally. So is Randy Johnson's. So was Nolan Ryan's. Jim Kaat won 16 gold gloves and isn't in. Bobby Shantz won 8 and isn't in. Mark Langston won 7 and isn't in. Ron Guidry won 5 and isn't in. Kenny Rogers won 5 and probably isn't going in.

Besides which, even if we agree Drysdale was costing the Dodgers a bunch of runs with his bad fielding, shouldn't that be reflected in his ERA? His ERA was still excellent.

5) Only average in postseason play.

Admit it, you only are against Drysdale because you don't like his record. I don't know why really, since you support Bunning and Bunning's record isn't so great either. Drysdale wasn't "average" in the World Series; his record was average.

6) Many times wasn't very accurate with pitching. 5 times led league in hit batsmen.

Drysdale had fantastic control (shown by his K/BB ratio of nearly 3). He had high HBP totals because he would throw at a guy's head. This is beyond famous. You can hardly read anything at all about Drysdale without coming across his ruthless, intimidating pitching style.

7) Bert Blyleven had more strikeouts, wins, played longer, and is still only 3 points behind in ERA+

Again, this is a case for Blyleven, not a case against Drysdale.