Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35

Thread: Ok... the Protest.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Burbank, IL
    Posts
    1,540

    Ok....the protest.

    As a Cubs fan. All I hear is "Mr. Cub...Ernie Banks. "Mr. Cub..Ernie Banks." And that's ALL I HEAR. Now, I respect Ernie, but....


    Billy Williams played one less season.
    Billy Williams did NOT hit as many homers as Banks.
    Billy Williams leads Banks in OPS+ by eleven points
    Williams has more hits than Banks.
    Williams- ok, maybe he doesn't KILL Banks, but that's a nice 16 point difference in batting average.
    Williams had more plate discipline. Taking more walks and striking out fewer times.
    Williams has an OBP of .361 to Banks .330
    Williams stole more bases
    Banks does have a better defense
    Banks does have an 8 point advantage over Williams in SLG
    It's hard to go wrong with someone with Two MVP's, more all stars, and once again, I am going against ajusted positional movement.
    WIth this- I come to conclude- Sweet Swinging Billy Williams is the REAL Mr. Cub.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    4,232
    Part of being "Mr. Cub" is popularity, and how much they're associated with the team.
    The Dark Knight is the best movie I've ever seen.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxgNjMTPIs

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Burbank, IL
    Posts
    1,540
    Williams isn't popular?

    Banks is so beloved, but how many of my fellow Cub fans are stat snobs (like me) and NOT silly drunks? If they look at the stats, Williams was better than Banks. And, so far, I've gotten TFAM to agree.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Magrathea
    Posts
    5,755
    Blog Entries
    2
    Banks was outgoing, Williams was reserved. Mr. Cub is a public image, and I assume Cubs fans decided it would be best to bestow the title on someone who had the more gregarious public persona. The image of Ernie Banks as the cheerful, "It's a beautiful day, let's play two," man is enough to push him over the edge as the choice to represent the Cubs, since he is a legitimate contender for greatest Cub based on his playing achievements.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Section 232, Row 1, Seat 24, Miller Park, Miller Park Way
    Posts
    3,588
    I don't think it matters pointing out who is the better player or who was more popular anymore.

    Ernie Banks is Mr. Cub. It's history now, and I doubt anyone can change that.

    However, I will argue in favor of Banks.

    If you add positional value, Banks clearly comes out ahead. Plus, Banks was clearly the best player on the Cubbies through the 1950's. Williams, Santo, and Banks fought each other in the 1960's to be the best player. Clearly, this leads to Williams not being the best Cub for a substantial amount of time like Banks was.

    There is also the tenure to think about. Banks was tearing up the league as a power hitting, good fielding shortstop for almost a decade before Williams came along. One must admit this gives Banks an advantage.

    There is also the fact that Banks played his entire career with the Cubs, and Williams did not. Yes, it's true Williams was traded, but he still DID NOT end his career a Cubbie like Banks did.

    Adding in all these points, I don't believe it's possible to look at Williams as some sort of revisionist REAL "Mr. Cub", unless you throw out things like positional adjustment, which even hardcore traditionalists look at.
    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
    AL Pennant: 1982
    NL Central Champions: 2011
    NL Wild Card: 2008

    "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Berkeley
    Posts
    1,528
    Not giving a "position adjustment" is one thing, but you're taking it even further; you're not considering anything besides hitting numbers. Billy Williams was a better hitter than Banks, but Banks played over 1100 games at short, while Williams would be a DH in today's game. I think even you would agree that if they had the same amount of hitting value, Banks would be the better total player. The fact that Williams was a little better with the bat doesn't automatically make him the better player.
    "Hall of Famer Whitey Ford now on the field... pleading with the crowd for, for some kind of sanity!"

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Burbank, IL
    Posts
    1,540
    Banks played most of his career at first, and first is a power position. Williams was better with the bat.

    I mean, you treat Williams as if he were truly dreadful with the glove. He may not have the greatest FP, but this is a guy who had double-digit assists in 7 different seasons as an outfielder. He would not have been religated to play DH in today's game.

    You're underrating Williams' defense. This isn't Ted Williams, it's Billy Williams
    Last edited by AlecBoy006; 03-05-2007 at 03:09 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Section 232, Row 1, Seat 24, Miller Park, Miller Park Way
    Posts
    3,588
    By saying that Banks played "most" of his career at First base, you're using lose terminology. It's true that Banks did play a majority of his career at first base. A 51% majority. He played another 45% at Shortstop, where his FRAA was 59. Not to mention he was also 32 FRAA at first base, for a career 91! That's pretty damn good. Williams was a good defenseman as well, with 79 FRAA for his career. But one again. As a leftfielder. Banks had 59 in 45% of his games, whereas is was 96% of Williams career to get that 79. Banks defense was clearly superior to Williams in general, and he did it at the most defensive position in the game.
    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
    AL Pennant: 1982
    NL Central Champions: 2011
    NL Wild Card: 2008

    "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    See ya on the flip.
    Posts
    3,618
    Blog Entries
    3

    interesting...

    Runningshoes wrote this story for my site last year.
    It's All About R-E-S-P-E-C-T for 'Sweet Swinging' Billy Williams
    Ask most Cubs fans to name the other player who could have laid claim to the title Mr. Cub and the first name to enter most minds will be that of a mechanical, methodically consistent outfielder whose career also took to him to Cooperstown.

    If Ernie Banks had never donned the uniform, “Sweet Swinging” Billy Williams might well have earned that very honor for himself. For thirteen of his eighteen major league seasons he played in the shadow of the hugely popular Banks and although he got it from opposing pitchers, Williams never got the respect he deserved from the fans or the media in Chicago or the rest of the country.

    His 147 hits, 25 home runs, 86 RBI’s and .277 batting average were enough to earn him the National League Rookie of the Year award in 1961, but the media’s attention was focused on Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris who were dueling to surpass Babe Ruth’s legendary season-high home run total and in 1972 he finished a distant second behind Cincinnati Reds catcher Johnny Bench and forced to take the proverbial back seat again.

    After more than a decade of great accomplishments and keeping silent about the lack of respect he received for them, it was clear the usually tight-lipped Alabaman was beginning to resent being taken for granted when he told the Sporting News he was very unhappy with the voting results. Williams hit 37 home runs with 122 RBIs while maintaining a .333 average while Bench, who topped Williams’ home run and RBI total by three, had batted a whopping 63 points lower but got the award because the Reds won the pennant that year. A year earlier Willie Stargell, who had led the Pittsburgh Pirates the National League pennant, lost out to Joe Torre who was giving the award because of his better statistics.

    The 1972 voting wasn’t even close. Bench had easily captured the award and Williams, who had been baseball’s most consistent hitter over the past five years, was angry in his own soft-spoken way.

    “Every year there seems to be a different set of rules. Look at the figures. I was ahead in average and almost even in home runs and RBIs. You have to feel you weren’t awarded something you deserved and it a feeling that sticks with you.”

    “Well after 13 years in the big leagues I’m going to let the other guy be the nice guy. I’m going to speak out if I see something. You get tired of people saying it’s easy for you to hit .300. It’s not easy. It’s a lot of work.

    For his entire career, other, more colorful Cubs overshadowed him in his own ballpark. If he wasn’t competing for attention with Ernie Banks Ron Santo and Ferguson Jenkins, he was doing so with his own manager Leo Durocher whose “lip” was legendary for drawing the attention of fans and the media as well as the ire of his own players; now Williams’ lack of nation-wide media attention had possibly cost him the hard earned MVP award. Williams’ career was drawing to a close at the end of the 1972 campaign and he was only two years away from leaving the Cubs. He had spent the peak years of his career quietly building a Hall of Fame resume while trying to earn the respect he was so deserving of in Chicago.

    When the following season rolled around the Cubs had made it clear that he did not fit into their plans for the future when they tried to convert him to first base during spring training. He was doomed to failure in that position so the Cubs grudgingly moved him back to left field, but the writing was on the wall.

    Williams was traded to the World Champion Oakland Athletics after the 1974 season where he hoped to finally get the respect he deserved by winning a World Series ring.

    The ring never came, but the respect did when the writers who had ignored him during his playing days recognized his incredible career by electing him to the Hall of Fame in 1987. Only ten days later he returned to Wrigley Field where his number 26 was raised to fly with Mr. Cub’s.
    When I read this thread, I was reminded about this "RESPECT" story. I thought I would share this with everyone here.
    BELIEVE

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    See ya on the flip.
    Posts
    3,618
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    WIth this- I come to conclude- Sweet Swinging Billy Williams is the REAL Mr. Cub.
    Curious, where does Cap Anson fall on your Mr Cub-o-meter?
    BELIEVE

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Burbank, IL
    Posts
    1,540
    How bout this.
    Mr. 19th Century Cub- Cap Anson
    Mr. 20th Century Cub- Billy Williams

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Posts
    3,244
    Quote Originally Posted by Dudecar00
    Banks defense was clearly superior to Williams in general, and he did it at the most defensive position in the game.
    No. Banks defense was clearly superior to Williams BECAUSE he did it at the most defensive position in the game.

    A shortstop gets more total chances than a left fielder, thus making it's a little easier to rack up fielding runs play shortstop than it is playing LF. FRAA is not meant to compare two players at different positions. It is meant to compare players playing the same position.

    Of course Banks was more valuable defensively as a shortstop than Williams was as a LF. Duh. But AlecBoy makes an important point: Banks may have played 45% of his games at the game's most difficult position, but he also played 51% of his games at baseball's easiest position (at the time).

    Is Banks' defensive edge enough to outweigh William's offensive edge? If so, this isn't a far and away thing as you might think.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Section 232, Row 1, Seat 24, Miller Park, Miller Park Way
    Posts
    3,588
    Quote Originally Posted by tearforamariner
    Of course Banks was more valuable defensively as a shortstop than Williams was as a LF. Duh. But AlecBoy makes an important point: Banks may have played 45% of his games at the game's most difficult position, but he also played 51% of his games at baseball's easiest position (at the time).
    Yes, and Williams played at the 2nd easiest defensive position. Banks was a good defensive player at SS and 1B. Are you going to tell me that he moved to 1B because he sucked at SS? It wasn't because he was bad, it's because he had to move there. I would much rather take a guy who was a good SS for half his career and then a good fielding 1b the 2nd half of his career, than a good fielding LF for his whole career.

    And what offensive edge does Williams have? Numbers like OPS+ are thrown out. I'd take Bank's peak OPS+ over Williams without even blinking. How about best 5 years in a row for OPS+.

    Banks:'56-'60: 137, 150, 156, 155, 145
    Williams:'64-'68: 147, 157, 122, 130, 142

    Williams has the best one, but Banks has 2 more about Williams 2nd, and 3 about his 3rd. Their 4th and 5th aren't even close. If you compare the first half of their careers, Banks was the much better player. If you go by the 2nd half, Williams was superior, but not as superior as Banks was during the first half.

    Banks still comes out ahead.
    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
    AL Pennant: 1982
    NL Central Champions: 2011
    NL Wild Card: 2008

    "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Posts
    3,244
    Quote Originally Posted by Dudecar00
    Yes, and Williams played at the 2nd easiest defensive position. Banks was a good defensive player at SS and 1B. Are you going to tell me that he moved to 1B because he sucked at SS? It wasn't because he was bad, it's because he had to move there. I would much rather take a guy who was a good SS for half his career and then a good fielding 1b the 2nd half of his career, than a good fielding LF for his whole career.

    And what offensive edge does Williams have? Numbers like OPS+ are thrown out. I'd take Bank's peak OPS+ over Williams without even blinking. How about best 5 years in a row for OPS+.

    Banks:'56-'60: 137, 150, 156, 155, 145
    Williams:'64-'68: 147, 157, 122, 130, 142

    Williams has the best one, but Banks has 2 more about Williams 2nd, and 3 about his 3rd. Their 4th and 5th aren't even close. If you compare the first half of their careers, Banks was the much better player. If you go by the 2nd half, Williams was superior, but not as superior as Banks was during the first half.

    Banks still comes out ahead.
    I have no problem with you having Banks ahead, just don't use FRAA to compare players at two different positions. It makes you look stupid and I know you aren't. You are one of the smarter people here.

    Williams did play LF, but so did Yaz and Barry Bonds. are you telling me that those players did not have an effect on their teams defensively?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Round Lake Beach, Il
    Posts
    2,480
    This has to be the first time I heard someone say Banks is less deserving of the the title "Mr Cub". While you have made some good points, and it has been said already, Banks did play his whole career with the hapless Cubs and he had been tearing up the field for nearly a decade before Williams came. And dont forget Banks 2 MVPs on the 2nd Division Cubs. Thats just what I think, and as someone else said, Banks was such a happy cheerful guy out there.
    "I don't like to sound egotistical, but every time I stepped up to the plate with a bat in my hands, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the pitcher."
    -Rogers Hornsby-

    "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
    -Rogers Hornsby-

    Just a note to all the active members of BBF, I consider all of you the smartest baseball people I have ever communicated with and love everyday I am on here. Thank you all!

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Section 232, Row 1, Seat 24, Miller Park, Miller Park Way
    Posts
    3,588
    I would never say something like that. I would obviously rather take someone like Carl Yastrzemski over Lou Brock if I wanted someone who was going to have a positive impact on my team.

    But logic says if I had Ernie Banks at SS and Billy Williams at LF on my team, Ernie Banks will have more of a defensive impact on my team, wether negative or positive. In Banks case, it would be more of a positive impact, as would Williams. But Banks impact is larger.

    It was a mistake to use FRAA the original way I used it. I normally don't slip up that much.
    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
    AL Pennant: 1982
    NL Central Champions: 2011
    NL Wild Card: 2008

    "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Posts
    3,244
    Quote Originally Posted by Dudecar00
    I would never say something like that. I would obviously rather take someone like Carl Yastrzemski over Lou Brock if I wanted someone who was going to have a positive impact on my team.

    But logic says if I had Ernie Banks at SS and Billy Williams at LF on my team, Ernie Banks will have more of a defensive impact on my team, wether negative or positive. In Banks case, it would be more of a positive impact, as would Williams. But Banks impact is larger.

    It was a mistake to use FRAA the original way I used it. I normally don't slip up that much.
    It's cool man, I know you don't. I read your posts and I've read your blog. You are a smart guy. I really respect your opinion, and I do see where you are coming from.

    It's easy for us to undervalue what Banks did at shortstop, and it surpirses me that no one has brought this up to support Banks. We have seen Ripken, A Rod, Jeter, Nomar, Tejada, and others play SS as if it were an offensive position. This has not historically been the case. Offense from a shortstop was a rarity, and Ernie Banks was really the first big power Short.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,552
    Well, take the Mariner's for instance.

    Alvin Davis is Mr. Mariner. He is and always will be. He was the first great star the team brought up. But others were greater: Griffey, A-Rod, and the other Mr. Mariner - Edgar Martinez.

    At the end of Edgar's career, many people were saying that he shoud be the new Mr. Mariner, but there is only one and only ever will be one - Alvin Davis. Edgar may have been better, but he just didn't come around early enough to gain that title. So that's that.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Posts
    3,244
    Quote Originally Posted by Edgartohof
    Well, take the Mariner's for instance.

    Alvin Davis is Mr. Mariner. He is and always will be. He was the first great star the team brought up. But others were greater: Griffey, A-Rod, and the other Mr. Mariner - Edgar Martinez.

    At the end of Edgar's career, many people were saying that he shoud be the new Mr. Mariner, but there is only one and only ever will be one - Alvin Davis. Edgar may have been better, but he just didn't come around early enough to gain that title. So that's that.
    Yeah, but when Edgar retired, Alvin Davis called Edgar Mr. Mariner .

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,552
    Getting a title isn't just about being the best (though that is a major part - you aren't going to see someone like Dick Bertell getting this honor, even if he was really liked). It is majorly influenced by being the face of the organization, at a critical juncture in that teams history. And once it's set, it is not going to be reversed. Sort of like once you are in the HOF, you are in for good, even if people later down the road don't think you deserve induction.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    533
    Quote Originally Posted by Wade8813
    Part of being "Mr. Cub" is popularity, and how much they're associated with the team.
    Definitely. Williams and Banks were close in talent, but Ernie's attitude and popularity definitely make him Mr. Cub.
    Hitting is timing, pitching is upsetting timing.
    -Warren Spahn

    It's a round ball and a round bat and you gotta hit it square.
    -Pete Rose


    Good pitching always beats good hitting...and vice versa.
    -Yogi Berra

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Section 232, Row 1, Seat 24, Miller Park, Miller Park Way
    Posts
    3,588
    Ahhh, you brought up my blog TFAM. I haven't worked on that in ages. Actually over my winter break I was writing an article on catchers in the majors today, but I had to come back to school halfway during it and I haven't started writing again.
    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
    AL Pennant: 1982
    NL Central Champions: 2011
    NL Wild Card: 2008

    "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    See ya on the flip.
    Posts
    3,618
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by AlecBoy006
    How bout this.
    Mr. 19th Century Cub- Cap Anson
    Mr. 20th Century Cub- Billy Williams
    Ah now come on, pick one.

    does Williams stats compare to Anson's? If you use stats only to decide who is the real Mr Cub... I think Cap might have the edge...
    BELIEVE

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    10,144
    AB, you go looking in the goofiest places for controversy. Ernie Banks is Mr. Cub because 1) nobody alive ever saw Cap Anson play, 2) Banks is loved by the Cubs faithful, and 3) no one but Banks said "...Let's play two!"

    The epithet of "Mr. Cub" is not bestowed because Ernie is the greatest player the Cubs ever had, but because amongst living fans he is the one they most identify as the personification of the Cubs.
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

  25. #25
    A fan would really have to be old enough to have seen Ernie play to really understand what he meant to baseball fans in Chicago. I dont think looking at stats even begin to tell the story.
    "Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids. Period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never."

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •