Face of the Franchise

[The Dude]

I was interested in running a series of polls, on who people identify as a teams player. This stemmed from a discussion we had on who the "real" Mr. Cub was. It in the debate ended up being about Billy Williams, Ernie Banks, and Cap Anson. It seemed that most people agreed it should remain Ernie Banks. I also was thinking about this while reading the CE thread on Pete Rose and what he means to Cincy fans.

What I wanted to do was do a poll for all 30 teams. I know some are runaways, but some are obviously wide open. However, I wanted to gain some insight from the history forumers. Do you think I should do this here in the history forum, or through each teams forum?

Results
Arizona Diamonbacks: Randy Johnson - 57% of Voters
Atlanta Braves: Hank Aaron - 67% of Voters
Baltimore Orioles: Cal Ripken Jr. - 81% of Voters
Boston Braves: Rabbit Maranville - 47% of Voters, Warren Spahn - 33% of Voters
Boston Red Sox: Ted Williams - 90% of Voters
California Angels: Tim Salmon - 27% of Voters, Rod Carew-21% of Voters, Nolan Ryan - 18% of Voters
Chicago Cubs: Ernie Banks - 84% of Voters
Chicago White Sox: Frank Thomas - 53% of Voters
Cincinatti Reds: Pete Rose - 51% of Voters
Cleveland Indians - Bob Feller - 62% of Voters
Colorado Rockies: Todd Helton - 79% of Voters
Detroit Tigers: Ty Cobb - 69% of Voters
Florida Marlins: Dontrelle Willis - 43% of Voters, Miguel Cabrera - 29% of Voters
Houston Astros: Jeff Bagwell - 42% of Voters, Craig Biggio - 36% of Voters
Kansas City Royals: George Brett - 96% of Voters
Los Angeles Dodgers: Sandy Koufax - 56% ov Voters
Milwaukee Braves: Hank Aaron - 51% of Voters
Milwaukee Brewers: Robin Yount - 89% of Voters
Minnesota Twins: Kirby Puckett - 69% of Voters
Montreal Expos: Gary Carter - 33% of Voters, Andre Dawson - 24% of Voters, Tim Raines - 24% of Voters
New York Giants: John McGraw - 34% of Voters, Willie Mays - 34% of Voters
New York Mets: Tom Seaver - 78% of Voters
New York Yankees: Babe Ruth - 56% of Voters
Oakland Athletics: Rickey Henderson - 50% of Voters
Philidelphia Athletics: Connie Mack - 73% of Voters
Philadelphia Phillies: Mike Schmidt - 79% of Voters
Pittsburgh Pirates: Roberto Clemente - 53% of Voters
San Diego Padres: Tony Gwynn - 92% of Voters
San Francisco Giants: Willie Mays - 86% of Voters
Seattle Mariners - Ken Griffey Jr. - 55% of Voters
St. Louis Browns: George Sisler - 81% of Voters
St. Louis Cardinals: Stan Musial - 96% of Voters
Tampa Bay Devil Rays: Carl Crawford - 37% of Voters, No Face - 37% of Voters
Texas Rangers: Nolan Ryan - 46% of Voters, Ivan Rodriguez - 23% of Voters
Washington Senators 1: Walter Johnson - 100% of Voters
Washington Senators 2: Frank Howard - Honorary Face

[ElHalo]

History forum should work.

Yankees are an interesting case, as the unquestionable answer is Joe DiMaggio, even though he's, by my count, only the fifth best position player to ever play for the Yankees. Babe Ruth was the bigger star by far, but the largest ethnic group in the New York metropolitan area is Italian, and DiMaggio meant the world and a half to the Italian population, and is still seen as the legend of legends in Yankeedom.

(Sidenote on that: a former coworker of mine, originally from Nebraska, once commented on how strange it was that seemingly all catered events at work or other public functions were catered with Italian food. To me, that was just normal... if you need to feed a lot of people, you get a lot of lasagna, or ziti, or chicken marsala; it's somewhat awkward to have huge vats of fried chicken or mashed potatos at an office party. But it got me to thinking... you can't go more than two blocks in any direction anywhere in NYC, Long Island, or northern New Jersey without hitting an Italian restaurant... 95% of them family owned, by actual Italian families. I don't recall that being the case in most other parts of the country I've spent time in. It's very possible that DiMaggio's huge legend is at least partly due to the fact that there are so many Italians in New York, that he made a huge impact. Similar to how a superstar Cuban athlete would probably be much more popular in Miami than in, say, Milwaukee.)

[Elvis]

I think it might be a good idea to have separate choices for relocated franchises.

[Mariano_Rivera]

History forum should work.

Yankees are an interesting case, as the unquestionable answer is Joe DiMaggio, even though he's, by my count, only the fifth best position player to ever play for the Yankees. Babe Ruth was the bigger star by far, but the largest ethnic group in the New York metropolitan area is Italian, and DiMaggio meant the world and a half to the Italian population, and is still seen as the legend of legends in Yankeedom.

(Sidenote on that: a former coworker of mine, originally from Nebraska, once commented on how strange it was that seemingly all catered events at work or other public functions were catered with Italian food. To me, that was just normal... if you need to feed a lot of people, you get a lot of lasagna, or ziti, or chicken marsala; it's somewhat awkward to have huge vats of fried chicken or mashed potatos at an office party. But it got me to thinking... you can't go more than two blocks in any direction anywhere in NYC, Long Island, or northern New Jersey without hitting an Italian restaurant... 95% of them family owned, by actual Italian families. I don't recall that being the case in most other parts of the country I've spent time in. It's very possible that DiMaggio's huge legend is at least partly due to the fact that there are so many Italians in New York, that he made a huge impact. Similar to how a superstar Cuban athlete would probably be much more popular in Miami than in, say, Milwaukee.)

I don't know about that. I'd say Ruth because of the shear impact he made on the Yankees.

[Mariano_Rivera]

I think it might be a good idea to have separate choices for relocated franchises.

You're right, Jackie Robinson never played in LA

[nerfan]

You should definitely put it in the history forum. a) the team by team ones would attract little attention and b) SEAVER

[ElHalo]

You're right, Jackie Robinson never played in LA

Of course he never played in LA, but I don't think anybody thinks of anyone other than Jackie Robinson when you think "greatest Dodger."

[The Dude]

Of course, but it's not like there's bad choices for the LA Dodgers. Koufax of course, and I know I still think of Mike Piazza as a dodger.

One question: For the Braves, should we split it up between Boston/Milwaukee and Atlanta? I personally don't think we should, but I'd like some input.

I'll go ahead and run the first two polls. I think 3 days should be good enough to generate at least a little discussion.

[Elvis]

You're right, Jackie Robinson never played in LA

Never played for the Dodgers in L.A..

[dgarza]

Of course he never played in LA, but I don't think anybody thinks of anyone other than Jackie Robinson when you think "greatest Dodger."

Snider usually pops up before Jackie.

[AlecBoy006]

And WHO was that who created the Cub discussion?

[Minstrel]

I don't know about that. I'd say Ruth because of the shear impact he made on the Yankees.

Honestly, I think Ruth is more the face of baseball than of the Yankees. He towered over baseball so much, I honestly don't really instinctively tie him to a franchise so much as the sport itself.

I would agree with DiMaggio as more the "face" of the Yankees. Some of that is the artificial mystique he himself fostered, some of it is that he played with the grace of the consummate ballplayer, for the flagship franchise at a time when baseball was a much bigger part of the national culture and consciousness.

[ElHalo]

Honestly, I think Ruth is more the face of baseball than of the Yankees. He towered over baseball so much, I honestly don't really instinctively tie him to a franchise so much as the sport itself.

I would agree with DiMaggio as more the "face" of the Yankees. Some of that is the artificial mystique he himself fostered, some of it is that he played with the grace of the consummate ballplayer, for the flagship franchise at a time when baseball was a much bigger part of the national culture and consciousness.

Pretty much agree entirely.

Ruth was the bigger star, of course, but Joe DiMaggio is the guy people point to when they think of the perfect Yankee.

And as further evidence: there are two major highways in New York City named after baseball players, and neither of them are Ruth Expressway. The former Interboro Parkway (between Brooklyn and Queens) was renamed the Jackie Robinson Parkway sometime in the 90's, and the West Side Highway along the Hudson in Manhattan was renamed Joe DiMaggio Drive about six or seven years ago (although nobody calls it anything but the West Side Highway).

[Erik Bedard]

Quick question: When did chicken marsala become Italian food? Last I checked, it was still Indian.

IMHO, we shouldn't split it up between locations, except in extreme cases such as the Dodgers, where the Brooklyn Dodgers are generally thought of as a completely separate entity from the Los Angeles Dodgers, and the A's, where Philly and Oakland each stake their own claim. The Braves are a tough one, though. It's obviously Aaron for Milwaukee, but Boston and Atlanta could be wide open. Then the problem of players playing for the same franchise in two different cities arises.

[The Dude]

Aye Erik, I agree. Brewers/Pilots will remain the Milwaukee Brewers. I have doubts about the Browns/Orioles, but I think there's enough guys on the Browns to qualify it.

As for the Angels, I figured we'd just lump them all in together. And with the Senators/Rangers, I don't think there was enough time or enough superstars to split them up (Although some might argue about Frank Howard).

[Erik Bedard]

Hm, Senators creates a whole new problem. Do we lump both iterations together, or separate Twins/first Senators, while keeping Rangers/second Senators together?

[AlecBoy006]

Face of the Washington Senators: Walter Johnson
Face of the Minnesota Twins: Kirby Puckett
Face of the Washington Senators: Frank Howard
Face of the Texas Rangers: Nolan Ryan

In My Opinion

[The Dude]

I would seperate the Twins/Senators, but I don't think there's really enough there to split up the 2nd team. I mean, you could relatively argue for two guys for the Milwaukee Braves (Aaron and Spahn, and maybe Mathews), but for the second Senators, who is there besides Howard.

Another thing, is what do we do about the Expos/Nationals. It's much like the Dodgers fans. THey're very polaryzed between the two teams it seems.

[AlecBoy006]

Wait for the Nationals to play longer. For now, just count them as one.

I'd have Andre Dawson as the Face of the Expos/Nats.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Babe Ruth was the bigger star by far, but the largest ethnic group in the New York metropolitan area is Italian, and DiMaggio meant the world and a half to the Italian population.

The word "Bambino" didn't originate from Chinese people

I might have to agree with you though, about the DiMaggio vs. Ruth thing. Ruth is much larger than just the face of a franchise. Can't get with your highway example though. One could point to gravesite visits to lean toward Ruth. Guarantee more make the trip to Hawthorne than to Joe D's resting place, and GHR has been under for about 60. Neither here nor there though, I'm agreeing with ya

[milladrive]

My initial reaction was that each team should have their polls placed in their particular forums, but to be honest, the History forum will probably work well for this, as it will attract more attention from the general baseball community.

My only suggestion is that the threads are spread out over the course of time, and that experts on each team be consulted so that no genuine contenders be omitted through oversight.

As for the combining of relocated teams, I think there should be separate polls for each team that spent more than a certain time in any one place. In other words, for example, Pilots/Brewers should be one poll, Senators 2/Rangers should be one poll, but Brooklyn and Los Angeles should be separate, Browns and Orioles should be separate, as should Senators 1 and Twins. As for the Athletics, perhaps one for Philadelphia, while a second for KC/Oakland? And maybe the Braves should have three polls? Just thinking.

[The Dude]

Milla, great minds think alike!

We'll be doing two every 3 days. After the first two are up, I'll be locking them as not to clutter Bill's forum.

And as for what you said on each franchise, that's exactly what we're doing.

I was a bit torn at first about what to do with the 3 City teams, but KC was so bad and uncompetitive, that they fit well with Oakland. However, the Milwaukee Braves have a number of guys that I would identify more as Milwaukee Braves than just Braves, and they had so much success, it's only fair to split them into three teams.

[GiambiJuice]

Pretty much agree entirely.

Ruth was the bigger star, of course, but Joe DiMaggio is the guy people point to when they think of the perfect Yankee.

And as further evidence: there are two major highways in New York City named after baseball players, and neither of them are Ruth Expressway. The former Interboro Parkway (between Brooklyn and Queens) was renamed the Jackie Robinson Parkway sometime in the 90's, and the West Side Highway along the Hudson in Manhattan was renamed Joe DiMaggio Drive about six or seven years ago (although nobody calls it anything but the West Side Highway).

I think Mickey Mantle in his prime was idolized just as much as Joe Dimaggio was in his prime. Just about every person I know who grew up in NY in the 1950's tells me that Mantle was basically a god in this town.

That said, the face of the Yankees is unquestionably Babe Ruth. Hell, he is the most recognizable figure in the history of Baseball and one of the most recognizable pop culture icons of the 20th century.

[DTF955]

You know, the person I most associate with the St. Louis Browns only played in one game.

Sad, isn't it. But, that's how bad that team was.

(of course, I'm referring to Eddie Gaedel.)

Should be fun.

[Erik Bedard]

Thing is, I have trouble coming up with an immediate face for the Boston Braves. Maybe Rabbit Maranville, though that's a real stretch.