Wagner/Mays: Who Do You Rank Higher as Historical Players?

[ChrisLDuncan]

What is there for me to disagree with? You have given no reasoning for why you think my system undervalues shortstop defense. Once again, I'm open to suggestions if you have reasoning behind your thought though.

The difference in total points is 15...out of final scores that are upwards of 500+ for these two players, I think that's way too paltry of a difference between one of the most involved positions that is far more demanding and "valuable" than CF. I think there's more of a 3% difference in defensive value between the two of them as a part of their overall game.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Ivan Rodriguez is one example IMO of a catcher severely overrated defensively due to his success at preventing the running game. Intuitively I still do think that a huge part of a catcher's responsibility to work with the pitchers, call pitches, and work with the pitchers on how to handle opposing hitters. Ivan Rodriguez through his career has been notorious for not doing any of this. While other catchers usually meet with their pitchers before games going over matchups and how they are going to handle hitters in certain situations, Rodriguez has been known to blow off these meetings, leaving his pitchers stranded. He also has been known to call fastballs whenever there is a possible SB threat on first base, perhaps inflating his CS%. By 2003 he may have become more mature, but I think earlier in his career this was a SERIOUS problem.

Well, I think the general consensus of baseball players and managers would disagree with you...doesn't make you wrong just reconsider what you're saying.

[538280]

Well, I think the general consensus of baseball players and managers would disagree with you...doesn't make you wrong just reconsider what you're saying.

Do you have any evidence tha the "general consensus of baseball players and managers" would think Rodriguez was very good at calling pitches/working with the pitchers? Personally all that I've read is that he's been bad at it.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Do you have any evidence tha the "general consensus of baseball players and managers" would think Rodriguez was very good at calling pitches/working with the pitchers? Personally all that I've read is that he's been bad at it.

Not neccessairly game calling but other aspects of his defense.

[Bench 5]

53280 can correct me if I am wrong but I think that he adds some general defensive credit for positional adjustments when he calculates OPS+ for 1 and 2. SS gets 15 extra OPS points due to the fact they play shortstop.

There are also defensive contributions imbedded in Win Shares for 3,4 and 8.

Whether the sum of all of that plus number 5 gives too much or too little credit for defense is open.

Kudos to him for putting it together. It's a well thought out system. I am in the process of building my own. It takes a lot of time so I can appreciate the effort he put in. My only suggestion is that you should at least build the formulas into a spreadsheet to make it easier for you to calculate.

[Bench 5]

When it comes to defensive value, the order of importance is quite simple. It is quite obvious in its simplicity. It should be:

P, C, SS, 2B, CF, 3B, 1B, LF, RF.

I tend to agree with you except I think that left and right should be switched. This same topic came up on the Banks/Snider thread. Chris pointed out to me that Win Shares gives the least amount of credit defensively to the first base position.

My take on this subject is that every position is extremely important when it comes to defense. I don't think that players should be given positional adjustements based on the importance of the position. I think that players should get some type of credit due to the fact that some positions require more skill. Or at least unique combinations of skills. Any given play can make or break the game. First base for instance handles the ball probably more than any other position except P and C. It's not as difficult to play first well as compared to SS, but during the course of a game, it's just as important that you have a competent first baseman.

[538280]

Not neccessairly game calling but other aspects of his defense.

My post was not questioning Pudge in areas outside game calling, I accept him as having an all time great and as one of the best ever at throwing out basestealers. My problem with him is in the area of game calling.

[538280]

The difference in total points is 15...out of final scores that are upwards of 500+ for these two players, I think that's way too paltry of a difference between one of the most involved positions that is far more demanding and "valuable" than CF. I think there's more of a 3% difference in defensive value between the two of them as a part of their overall game.

To begin with the difference is 20 points, not 15. 20 points is actually quite significant. As you move into the 30s or so when players become very closely bunched 20 points can be 15-20 ranking spots. Also, defense is factored into the system through WS as well as the subjective ratings. Overall I think the difference between a great fielder at a position and a horrible one is at least 20 spots in the system. I think that's enough of a credit or discredit for quality of defense.

[ChrisLDuncan]

To begin with the difference is 20 points, not 15. 20 points is actually quite significant. As you move into the 30s or so when players become very closely bunched 20 points can be 15-20 ranking spots. Also, defense is factored into the system through WS as well as the subjective ratings. Overall I think the difference between a great fielder at a position and a horrible one is at least 20 spots in the system. I think that's enough of a credit or discredit for quality of defense.

Didn't Mays get 40 and Wagner get 55? I dunno, I just think that you're stiffing Hans on defense in favor of your boy Mays.

[ChrisLDuncan]

My post was not questioning Pudge in areas outside game calling, I accept him as having an all time great and as one of the best ever at throwing out basestealers. My problem with him is in the area of game calling.

Blocking the plate, blocking pitches, that's in there too.

[Bill Burgess]

I think pitch calling is crucial and I did mention that in my post. I also think however that it is the pitcher who makes the pitch and how much movement and/or velocity (the effectiveness of the pitch) is what makes it difficult for the pitcher to get a hit off the pitch. The catcher's job of calling pitches is important, but ultimately it is what the pitcher does, far more so than the catcher, that determines the outcome of a PA. Not saying what a catcher does isn't important, just saying that by far most of the responsibility of whether a pitch is effective or not lies on the pitcher.

I do BTW, intuitively, think catcher defense is more important than what numerical studies have shown me. When I first made up my system (and made catcher defense the most important, and it still stands like that today)I was not familiar with, for example, the nuts and bolts of Matt's PCA system. Matt's PCA system assigns a specific weight to every defensive accomplishment similar to how we can do it with offensive events-and it has catchers with a very low scoring rate compared to what you would think. Also, I have since read that in total, catchers have not been found to increase pitcher performance at all when they catch certain pitchers. The correlation, according to a BP study, was exactly zero. I believe this is also some of the basis for Matt's system thinking of catcher defense much less than it is traditionally thought of.

As my "values" stand right now, though, I still regard catcher as the most important defensive position.

Wow, Chris. This is one of your best, most insightful posts ever. I agree with you throughout. Not all can be measured on the field. We all wish so much that it could be. Would make everybody's job a heck of a lot easier.

But just to support your growing instincts, let me offer some tidbits. Most of the great catchers might not be able to substantiate their contributions with statistics, but let's look at some real life events.

Some of those catchers whom we rank highly, all 'happen' to have very good teams to give some indication of their value.

Bench, Berra, Campy, Kling, Bresnahan, Ewing, Cochrane, Dickey, Hartnett. Even Santop, Gibson in the old Negro L. These guys, while not being able to prove their values according to the numbers, 'happened' to end up on a lot of pennant winners.

They 'anchored' their infields like a quarterback, directing the action. Most of the better ones, imparted a lot of their own personal fire, always keeping their guys fired up, barking their directives to their infielders, while carefully NOT barking at their pitchers, who required a quite different kind of 'handling'. That is one of the secrets. Treat your pitcher like a 'soft Dad', treat your infielders like a 'tough Dad.' All the great catchers understood the psychological requirements of how to handle their guys.

Good posting, Chris. Very keen insights here. Your insides serve you well, here.

[538280]

Didn't Mays get 40 and Wagner get 55? I dunno, I just think that you're stiffing Hans on defense in favor of your boy Mays.

Yes, I did give Mays 40 and Wagner 55. I thought you were referring to the difference between the maximum and minimum you can get while playing at a position (which is always a 20 point difference). But, yes, both Wagner and Mays both got the maximum amount of points for their position because they are both among the all time best fielders at their position. If you could please tell me why I'm stiffing Hans then I would like to hear. Yes, 15 points is a pretty significant difference in my system. If you would like to tell me why you think a shortstop does more to save his team runs than a shorstop does by more than the 5.5 to 4 ratio that I have then please enlighten me. Don't just say 15 points isn't enough, tell me why it isn't enough.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Bench, Berra, Campy, Kling, Bresnahan, Ewing, Cochrane, Dickey, Hartnett. Even Santop, Gibson in the old Negro L. These guys, while not being able to prove their values according to the numbers, 'happened' to end up on a lot of pennant winners.

They 'anchored' their infields like a quarterback, directing the action. Most of the better ones, imparted a lot of their own personal fire, always keeping their guys fired up, barking their directives to their infielders, while carefully NOT barking at their pitchers, who required a quite different kind of 'handling'. That is one of the secrets. Treat your pitcher like a 'soft Dad', treat your infielders like a 'tough Dad.' All the great catchers understood the psychological requirements of how to handle their guys.

Good posting, Chris. Very keen insights here. Your insides serve you well, here.

Great points Bill...you don't just "happen" to win a bunch of pennants, and several World Series...takes some skill too. Also, Chris, look at the results of catchers. Guys like Billy Beane, Mike Sosica, Joe Torre (even though he can't manage a pen), and the most sought after manager next off season (I'm calling it here and now) Joe Giaradi were all catchers...there are other catchers who did great things as GMs or managers. Maybe something to keep in mind if you ever retool your system.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Yes, I did give Mays 40 and Wagner 55. I thought you were referring to the difference between the maximum and minimum you can get while playing at a position (which is always a 20 point difference). But, yes, both Wagner and Mays both got the maximum amount of points for their position because they are both among the all time best fielders at their position. If you could please tell me why I'm stiffing Hans then I would like to hear. Yes, 15 points is a pretty significant difference in my system. If you would like to tell me why you think a shortstop does more to save his team runs than a shorstop does by more than the 5.5 to 4 ratio that I have then please enlighten me. Don't just say 15 points isn't enough, tell me why it isn't enough.

Well the way I see it I'm looking at the results. When you have a guy who is no worse than the second or third best defensive player of all time, and the subjective difference between defenses is less than 3% of his ranking I think that's a bit off. Whereas Mays is IMO not a top ten defender of all time, I don't see the difference as it relates to the final score in your subjective defensive ratings that paltry in terms of real on field value. I know that's the reference that baseball prospectus gives for replacement defense (33/24) but I don't think that's enough. How much balls did Hans see in his day? How many runs did he save his team compared to Mays in Center? I'm not sure but is what I do know is looking at your system if it were me I would give SS 60 because SS gets more balls and you don't see the other INFs stealing the SS ball as often as you do in the OF. I also think you're shafting Hans on the intangibles, Hans brought a lot too his team that will never be measured.

[538280]

Well the way I see it I'm looking at the results. When you have a guy who is no worse than the second or third best defensive player of all time, and the subjective difference between defenses is less than 3% of his ranking I think that's a bit off.

You need to focus on the difference between the numbers, not the percentage of the total. If Wagner was subtracted 15 points he would rate about 15th instead of 4th. I think that's enough difference between an all time great defensive SS and an all time great defensive CF. And also if Wagner were an all time great CF rather than SS he would move even further down because WS would also think less of his defense, so he'd be down to about 20th all time. That's if Wagner got about the same defensive credit that Mays does. I really don't get how that's not enough difference between an all time great CF and an all time great SS. Also, when we were talking about Cobb versus Wagner it was you who was claiming my system favors shorstops far too much. Now you claim that my system is shafting shorstops vs. CFers. Personally I think my system is fair to both positions.

Whereas Mays is IMO not a top ten defender of all time, I don't see the difference as it relates to the final score in your subjective defensive ratings that paltry in terms of real on field value.

I wouldn't call Mays a top 10 defender either. There are far too many player from more important defensive positions. His 40 points on the subjective part is not putting him close to a top 10 defender. If you understood the scales of my system I don't think you'd call 15 points a "paltry" number in terms of the impact it has on where players rate.

[Bill Burgess]

1. Calling a perfect game is initially the catchers value, but soon becomes part of the pitchers knowledge. So by sharing his art, it now becomes the pitchers art. And now the pitcher needs to receive his credit for becoming a better, more experienced pitcher. Now they must share the value as a good battery. Pitch-calling is more crucial with your younger pitchers. Less so with guys like Spahn, Maddux, Nolan Ryan, etc.

A catcher who is tops can memorize every single hitter's strengths/weaknesses and relieve his staff of the need to waste time figuring what to throw, and can apply ALL their energy into their mechanics, and how to put the ball where they want.

Pitch-calling falls into the category of 'Handling Your pitchers'. By relieving you pitchers of the need to know what to throw, you instill confidence in your guy out there. By performing this vital function, you coax as winning efforts out of your staff as they are mechanically capable.

Some members have dismissed my theory on the premise that the catcher cannot make the pitch for his pitcher. And while that is true, by taking the load of what to throw off his pitcher's mind, that same pitcher can focus ALL their concentration on their location, not on what pitch or where to put it.

I have seen game after game thrown by a few careless pitches. 4-5 blown called pitches will wipe out a game of defensive perfection. So, as far as I'm concerned, great pitching starts behind the plate, in the mind of your catcher. Buck Ewing could do this. He was called a Ty Cobb behind the plate. Charlie Bennett, Kling, Schalk, Bench, Mackey were all of this caliber of catcher. Pitch calling is the very 1st job of the catcher.

2. Cutting off the running game comes in second. Now I fully realize that all of us know that the catcher's arm cannot be measured by assists, throwing out base-runners. It takes no time for the word to go out as to whose arm is not to be challenged, and whose arms are glass.

3. Keeping the troops in fighting trim. Even as a fiery sparkplug, like Cochrane, once the directives are barked out, the troops catch fire, and soon, it's the team spirit, and now they fire up. So, catcher is hall monitor. Rides herd on his pride and keeps tabs on the ebb & flow of the game.

4. Honors/Awards are a valid way to measure peers opinions. GGs/All-Star teams, MVP shares, Hall of Fame, salaries, peer's opinions are all good indications of relative value. Not definitive, I realize, but still carry some weight.

5. And the catcher must also school his pitcher in how to hold the runners close.

6. Blocking the Plate.

7. Blocking wild pitches.

8. Going back for pop ups. Most are routine, but the ones near the railing, or a dugout are tricky, and if you mess it up, you can hurt yourself.

9. Fielding your bunts.

10. Participating in those rare rundowns.

His hitting/running are also important job duties of every catcher, but I was only itemizing his defensive job descriptions.

[yanks0714]

Do you have any evidence tha the "general consensus of baseball players and managers" would think Rodriguez was very good at calling pitches/working with the pitchers? Personally all that I've read is that he's been bad at it.

You and I must read the same books, magazines, and websites. I've heard IRod's blowing off pre-game meetings as well. I've also heard that he is not a great 'game caller' either.

I do think that he gets the exact opposite of Mike Piazza. Piazza is criticized for his throwing when the rest of his game is solid. IRod gets a lot of credit for his throwing while he lacks substance in other areas of catching.

[ChrisLDuncan]

You and I must read the same books, magazines, and websites. I've heard IRod's blowing off pre-game meetings as well. I've also heard that he is not a great 'game caller' either.

I do think that he gets the exact opposite of Mike Piazza. Piazza is criticized for his throwing when the rest of his game is solid. IRod gets a lot of credit for his throwing while he lacks substance in other areas of catching.

Yeah he's not the best game-caller. I was just refering to the other aspects of Pudge's defense; I misunderstood Chris.

[Minstrel]

You and I must read the same books, magazines, and websites. I've heard IRod's blowing off pre-game meetings as well. I've also heard that he is not a great 'game caller' either.

So have I. I've also heard, for years, that Pudge starts calling for more fastballs, higher in the zone, when there are base runners on, to help him augment his golden reputation for throwing out runners.

[Bill Burgess]

I tend to agree with you except I think that left and right should be switched.

I rank LF as more valuable than RF because it normally receives more traffic. I don't know of any lousy fielders being posted there.

RF is where they put Babe Herman, Hack (short legs) Wilson, Harry Heilmann. The only star OFers I know of in RF are Aaron/Clemente. I do not think of Ruth as a 'true' RFer. Yes, that's where they put in in Yankee Stadium, but they also put in in LF whenever they could on the road.

For the record Babe played the OF positions thusly.

LF - 1,057 games (47%), CF - 64 games (2%), RF 1,131 games (50%).

I rank CF as more essential than 3B, again due to slightly, very slightly more traffic. It takes more skill to play 3B, in terms of raw explosive reflexes, and reaction time, but it also takes more running, which is also an essential skill to play CF. A misplay at 3B will normally result in the runner taking one extra base, while a misplay in CF can be catastrophic, and lead to 2 or 3.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I rank LF as more valuable than RF because it normally receives more traffic. I don't know of any lousy fielders being posted there.

RF is where they put Babe Herman, Hack (short legs) Wilson, Harry Heilmann. The only star OFers I know of in RF are Aaron/Clemente. I do not think of Ruth as a 'true' RFer. Yes, that's where they put in in Yankee Stadium, but they also put in in LF whenever they could on the road.

For the record Babe played the OF positions thusly.

LF - 1,057 games (47%), CF - 64 games (2%), RF 1,131 games (50%).

You're forgetting Ichiro, and Kaline. Also they put Manny in LF...but that may just be Fenway.

[Bill Burgess]

You're forgetting Ichiro, and Kaline. Also they put Manny in LF...but that may just be Fenway.

Oops. You're quite right. I forgot both of them, and Mel Ott too. Don't you just hate it when you try to show off your smarts and screw it up. Hate when that happens.

But I do think that The Green Monster presents something of an anomaly. It reduces the running, and all they need focus on is judging the carooms accurately.

[Minstrel]

I rank LF as more valuable than RF because it normally receives more traffic. I don't know of any lousy fielders being posted there.

Traditionally, a team posts its weakest outfielder (or an outfielder with a weak arm) in left. The A's put Jeremy Giambi there, Ben Grieve there, the Red Sox put Manny Ramirez there.

LF and RF take the same amount of range, but RF also requires a stronger arm (for throws to third base, a throw for which LFers don't have a comparable throw). That added skill makes RF a bit more exclusive than LF, and why the Yankees played Ruth there...his powerful arm was more useful in right than left.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Oops. You're quite right. I forgot both of them, and Mel Ott too. Don't you just hate it when you try to show off your smarts and screw it up. Hate when that happens.

But I do think that The Green Monster presents something of an anomaly. It reduces the running, and all they need focus on is judging the carooms accurately.

Yeah it happens to me all the time...especially at the bar with women

[Bill Burgess]

Yeah it happens to me all the time...especially at the bar with women

Oouu! Sure that's never happened to anyone else before. How embarrassing.