I'd like to discuss Ewing/Kelly/Bennett as Pre-1900 catchers. Who do you think were better defensively? Below are some of our background data, compiled for us by our various members. Chancelor, Freakshow, leecemark, AG2004, Coop, The Slaff, etc.
Buck Ewing - 1880-96 - Had whole package; best handler of P., best arm-suppress running game; good bat, good runner, hit leadoff, good, popular manager.
Charlie Bennett - (1878-93) Cutting-edge defense, superb arm. Arm rivaled that of Ewing.
Michael "King" Kelly - (1878-93) great catcher, played OF, hit/ran well.
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Of these 3, I must give top honors for Defense to Ewing, Bennett.
Top throwing arm honors go to Ewing, Bennett.
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Pre-1910 Peers: Jack Clements, Deacon Jim McGuire, Red Charlie Dooin, Buck Ewing, Mike Kelly, Charlie Bennett, Billy Sullivan, Charles Pop Snyder, Marty Bergen, Bill Bergen, Johnny Kling, Roger Bresnahan, Chief Zimmer, Duke Farrell, John Warner.
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On January 12, 1894, at the age of 39, while still active as a ballplayer, Charlie Bennett was run over by a train at Wellsville, KS, and had to have both his legs amputated. Detroit's ballpark was subsequently named after Charlie.
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Buck Ewing supporters as the greatest ever player
supporters - 18
Billy Sunday,Jan.24,09
Cap Anson,-Jun.17
Sam Crane,Apr.18
Monty Ward, BE,25
Francis C. Richter,Fe,26
William B. Hanna=26
John B. Sheridan=28
John McGraw,31
Joe Vila,34
John B. Foster,BE38
Fred Logan,=38
John Drebinger,38
Mickey Welch,BE,39
Amos Rusie,39
Nick Altrock,42
Arlie Latham,52
Clark Griffith,52
John McCarthy,94
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Freakshow contributed this nice addition.
The top 16 in games at catcher, through 1892, with year retired:
894 C. Bennett '93
877 P. Snyder '91
743 S. Flint '89
668 D. Bushong '90
646 J. Clements '00
635 B. Ewing '97
566 K. Kelly '93
542 J. Milligan '93
538 B. Holbert '88
534 W. Robinson '02
516 C. Zimmer '03
486 C. Mack '96
472 J. Clapp '83
461 D. Miller '96
459 B. Gilligan '88
458 D. White '90
By 1900, four catchers had reached the 1000 mark.
The top 18 in games at catcher, through 1900, with year retired:
1171 D. McGuire '08
1162 W. Robinson '02
1095 C. Zimmer '03
1073 J. Clements '00
954 C. Bennett '93
877 P. Snyder '91
815 D. Farrell '05
743 S. Flint '89
739 M. Kittridge '06
668 D. Bushong '90
636 B. Ewing '97
636 D. Miller '96
630 P. Schriver '01
609 C. Mack '96
605 J. O'Connor '07
595 H. Peitz '06
585 J. Milligan '93
583 K. Kelly '93
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Brad Harris (Chancellor) contributed this gem in the historical section, to the thread, "The Greatest Catcher Ever", post #47, on July 30, 2004, 01:43PM
And it still sparkles with insight. An Impacted Life Join Date: Sep 2002, Posts: 2,493
I'll stick with Johnny Bench.
Bench is still considered, by a majority of people, to have most likely been the greatest defensive catcher in history. His offensive contributions are extremely underrated because of the era in which he played. Bench was the leader of his teams (not Rose, not Morgan, not Perez). Bench played in baseball's most balanced competitive climate ever and was twice named the Most Valuable Player in the league. Bench played against integrated competition whereas most catchers on these lists did not.
The only knock against Bench is his problems with his knees which forced him to move to first base for a few years, prolonging his career, but dropping his rate stats where he is compared to an average player (like TPR). Personally, I think in discussing who the "greatest" is, we are primarily discussing how great someone was at their peak. Bench's peak is certainly the most impressive of anyone on this list, in my opinion. At least when you consider all the surrounding factors (like environment and quality of competition).
The only two catchers I might rank as high are Buck Ewing and Josh Gibson and I'll tell you why I continue to select Bench over either of them.
Buck Ewing was certainly the greatest catcher in baseball history from the time he played until the Age of Messers. Cochrane, Hartnett and Dickey. Ewing was certainly one of the best players (regardless of position) of his era. However, Ewing was born before the Civil War and died at the age of 47, shortly after his retirement from the game. He certainly wasn't as physically gifted as Bench (or any great athlete born more than a hundred years later.) The competition Ewing faced wasn't necessarily the best in the country at that time as the many of the top "minor" league teams and players were of "major league" caliber. Ewing never had to face the top black or latino athletes in the hemisphere, either. In terms of dominating their respective eras, I can see where Ewing might be considered better than Bench, but in terms of the quality of baseball being played in those eras and doing cross-era comparisons of the all-time greats, I don't see how Ewing could be considered better than Bench at all. Bench excelled against a much higher level of competition, making his dominance more impressive (in my opinion.) Finally, on a defensive note, the catcher's position wasn't quite the same as living fans are prone to think of today and I believe that great defense behind the plate in the 1880s and 1890s is less impressive than great defense behind the plate in the modern era.
Josh Gibson, on the other hand, is less well-documented by meaningful and accurate statistics than the major leaguers we're comparing. Though the anecdotal (and available statistical) evidence is useful to an extent and, no doubt, very impressive, Gibson played primarily in an era that was hitter-friendly in the major leagues and didn't play in the organized "white" leagues. No doubt the competition he faced was top-notch, but Gibson's absence from the major leagues (through no fault of his own) makes comparing him to Bench an extremely difficult exercise if one is to be fair to all sides. Personally, I have Gibson rated as the #2 catcher of all-time, right behind Bench (with almost no room to spare) and I'm sure that if Gibson had played in an integrated major leagues that he would have been considered the greatest catcher in history at least until the time Bench played (if not still). However, I can't accurately project Gibson as the #1 catcher without feeling as though I'm stretching the analysis and giving extra credit because I want to believe the results.
Putting Ewing or Gibson over Bench requires adopting a line of reasoning that I'm uncomfortable with and feel would be wrong-headed in such a comparison. I have to stick with Bench. Gibson #2. Ewing is #5 in my book (after Berra and Cochrane).
1. Bench 2. Gibson 3. Berra 4. Cochrane 5. Ewing
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Chancellor on Catchers:
Brad Harris (Chancellor) contributed this scintillating analysis in the Hall of Fame Talk section, on the thread, "Best Players not in the Hall of Fame", page 5, post# 101, on February 9, 2004, 1:53PM:
Munson had a 116 OPS+ in 5,900 plate appearances. Bennett had a slightly higher OPS+ in roughly 1,500 fewer PAs. The difference, however, in playing time has everything to do with the eras in which they played.
Munson played regularly from 1970-78 and was the "starting" catcher in 1979, when injuries made him miss 65 games. For Munson, he was a starter at the age of 23 and died (in the second-half of his career) at the age of 32.
Bennett was the starting catcher on his teams from 1881-91, through eleven seasons (as opposed to Munson's 10). Quite simply, if the season had been 162 games in the 1880s, Bennett would very likely have at least as many PAs as did Munson.
So I think, in the context of their times, it is reasonable to say that their offense is a wash. Munson was a horrible baserunner. He stole 48 bases in 11 seasons, but was caught stealing 50 times! Bennett, on the other hand, stole 42 bases from the age of 31 on; there's no verifiable data on CS for those years or for SB totals prior to 1886. It isn't difficult to imagine that Bennett's career steals would look a little bit better if all the data were available. For now, let's call that a wash too.
So how about their defense? Well...Munson won 3 gold gloves. Bennett, playing many generations before the award was invented, won none of course.
According to defensive win shares, however, Bennett should have won 4 - in 1881-82, 1886 and 1890. And Munson? Defensive win shares point to a pair of undeserved awards; Munson shouldn't have received the prize in 1974-75. For their careers? Bennett receives an "A" while Munson is graded at a "B minus".
Of course, Munson received important hardware in 1976 when he was part of the first Yankee team to win a pennant in twelve years. The AL MVP that year, however, should have gone to someone else. Graig Nettles, Mickey Rivers and Roy White all had better seasons than Munson in 1976 -- and those were just his teammates. The best player in the AL in 1976 was among George Brett, Rod Carew and Bobby Grich. Brett led the league with 33 win shares - 9 more than Munson and there were a total of 21 players who had as much or more value than Munson did to their respective teams.
This isn't meant so much as a disaccreditation of hardware in modern baseball so much as it is to point out that the absence of hardware in an era before those awards were given regularly is no more/less telling than a few awards in modern baseball because, after all, even voters miss the mark from time to time.
Munson has a point in his column for his excellent post-season play. Bennett also won 2 post-season championships (and with two different teams) and had 13 hits and 10 RBIs in the 13 post-season games he appeared in.
So it looks like Munson and Bennett are basically a tie. And here's where we leave Munson behind.
Bennett was regarded as the best catcher (i.e. not player as Buck Ewing or Roger Bresnahan were, but catcher) of the 19th century (and on into the deadball era.)
Bennett meets 26.3 of the Hall of Fame's standards (where an "average" Hall of Famer meets 50.0), but Munson - playing in an era with over 50% more games per season - met only 29.5.
Of course, just as Munson's career was ended prematurely by the plane crash, so Bennett's career was abruptly interrupted by his losing both legs in an accident when he slipped crossing train tracks in 1894. Bennett was, in fact, so highly thought-of at the time that his former team, the Detroit Wolverines (later Tigers), named their ballpark after him; to this day Bennett remains the only player ever to receive that honor.
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Brad Harris (Chancellor) contributed this scintillating analysis in the Hall of Fame Talk section, on the thread, "Best Players not in the Hall of Fame", page 5, post# 103, on February 9, 2004, 4:05PM:
Ewing played more games at catcher than at other positions in the following seasons: 1881, 1883-86, 1888-90. In total, Ewing was behind the plate for only 636 out of 1,345 games. Bennett, on the other hand, played 954 of 1,084 career games at catcher.
Ewing, interestingly enough, is also credited with 4 "gold gloves" (as determined by defensive win shares), the same number as Bennett.
I poured over Win Shares for a few minutes, gathering the following:
From 1881-83, Charlie Bennett was the best catcher in the National League each of those three seasons. (Buck Ewing was usually second-best.)
From 1884-86 and from 1888-89 Buck Ewing was the best catcher in the National League each of those five seasons. (Charlie Bennett was usually second-best.) Also, in 1890, Buck Ewing was the best catcher in the Players League.
From 1881-89 either Bennett or Ewing was the best catcher in the NL with the sole exception of 1887, when Jim O'Rourke played 40 games at catcher, more than at any other position. (O'Rourke also played 38 games at third and 28 games in the outfield.) If you wanted a minimum percent of games played to qualify, then, you could technically crown Ewing the best catcher in the NL that year, too.
In their declining years in the 1890s, both Bennett and Ewing were eclipsed by Chief Zimmer, Jack Clements and Duke Farrell as the best catchers in baseball.
For a little over a decade, however, Bennett and Ewing were neck-and-neck as the best catchers in the game.
Editors Note: After Bill's comments made me look I must concede that Ewing's value as a catcher is diminished somewhat less by his 636 games than I had first thought.
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Brad Harris (Chancellor) contributed this scintillating analysis in the Hall of Fame Talk section, on the thread, "Best Players not in the Hall of Fame", page 5, post# 109, on February 11, 2004, 8:47AM:
Of the three names you mentioned - Bennett, Ewing and Kelly - I would have to rate them as offensive players in the following order:
Mike "King" Kelly
Buck Ewing
Charlie Bennett
However, Kelly played more games in the outfield than at catcher and, in fact, is categorized in the Hall of Fame as a rightfielder, not as a catcher. Only 5 of Kelly's 16 seasons saw him play at catcher more games than at any other position. And those were 5 of his final 6 years. Kelly barely amassed 1,600 plate appearances in those seasons so it really would be fair to include him in this discussion of great hitting catchers of the nineteenth century.
Ewing, who is closer to Kelly than to Bennett offensively, played many more seasons primarily as a catcher and finished his career with more games at catcher than anywhere else (though he, too, was used at a number of other positions on a regular basis.)
Bennett was a full-time catcher, but his OPS+ of 118, while much better than most players, wasn't as good as Ewing - even if you just include Ewing's "catcher seasons".
So, I'd rate Ewing an edge over Bennett where I would tend to keep Kelly out of the ratings at all (though he was a better hitter than Ewing, if you're just talking about offensive ability.
Also...I would rate Deacon White in between Ewing and Bennett. White was the best catcher of the early years of professional baseball and was one of the game's first stars.
I also happen to think White belongs in the Hall of Fame.
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Brad Harris (Chancellor) contributed this scintillating analysis in the Hall of Fame Talk section, on the thread, "Best Players not in the Hall of Fame", page 5, post# 116, on February 16, 2004, 10:50PM:
Good questions all.
I'll get to some of them after a little more research. Suffice it to say at the moment that I've compiled a list of the best defensive catcher in each league/season from 1876-2003. This is, essentially, a list of the most "gold gloves", though in fact it ignores actual gold gloves won in favor of who win shares said was the best (as opposed to the subjectivity of the voters). This is a measurement of defense only.
Most win shares "gold gloves", catcher
9 Ray Schalk
8 Gary Carter
6 Gabby Hartnett
6 Ivan Rodriguez
5 Yogi Berra
5 Roy Campanella
5 Mickey Cochrane
5 Bill Dickey
5 Bill Freehan
5 Bill Killefer
5 Jim Sundberg
In the 19th century, only Charlie Bennett, Buck Ewing and Pop Snyder led catchers in their league in defensive excellence four times. No catcher in history did it for a fifth time until Ray Schalk, at the end of the deadball era.
A few things to note. Johnny Bench and Ivan Rodriguez have the most actual gold glove awards, I believe. Bench has 4 win shares gold gloves.
Also, Roy Campanella won 5 win shares gold gloves, but didn't reach the majors until he was 26 because of the ban on black players; it's possible he'd won one or two more if he'd debuted a few years earlier.
Lance Parrish, Ossie Schreckengost and Jim Hegan join the 19th century triumvirate (mentioned above) and Bench as the only players with 4 win shares gold gloves.
Johnny Kling garnered 3.
Jimmie Archer and Billy Sullivan won a single "gold glove" each while Marty Bergen never led his league in defensive wizardry behind the plate.
This isn't the final word on how good those players were defensively, but it's one way of examining things and I thought I'd pass the info along as I got it.
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Win Shares Gold Gloves - Catchers
The Slaff: Aug. 22, 2005; 11:45 AM; Join Date: Jan., 2003; Posts: 269;
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1876 J. Clapp / D. White
1877 Lew Brown
1878 Pop Snyder
1879 Pop Snyder
1880 Silver Flint
1881 Charlie Bennett
1882 Charlie Bennett … Pop Snyder (AA)
1883 Doc Bushong / Barney Gilligan … Bill Holbert (AA)
1884 Buck Ewing … Pop Snyder (AA) … George Baker (UA)
1885 Buck Ewing … Doc Bushong (AA)
1886 Charlie Bennett … Doc Bushong (AA)
1887 Tom Daly … Kid Baldwin (AA)
1888 Buck Ewing … Wilbert Robinson (AA)
1889 Buck Ewing … W. Robinson / Jack Boyle (AA)
1890 Charlie Bennett … Jack O'Connor (AA) … Duke Farrell (PL)
1891 Chief Zimmer … Morgan Murphy (AA)
1892 Chief Zimmer
1893 John Grim
1894 Duke Farrell
1895 Deacon McGuire
1896 Ed McFarland / C. Zimmer
1897 John Warner
1898 Lou Criger
1899 Ed McFarland
1900 Ed McFarland
1901 Malachi Kittridge … Billy Sullivan
1902 Johnny Kling … Ossee Schreckengost
1903 Pat Moran … Lou Criger
1904 Admiral Schlei / J. Kling … D. McGuire / L. Criger
1905 Red Dooin … Ossee Schreckengost
1906 Johnny Kling … Ossee Schreckengost
1907 Red Dooin … Ossee Schreckengost
1908 Red Dooin … Boss Schmidt
1909 George Gibson … Ira Thomas
1910 George Gibson … Jack Lapp
1911 Chief Meyers … Ira Thomas
1912 Jimmy Archer … John Henry
1913 Bill Killefer … Ray Schalk
1914 Bill Killefer … Ray Schalk … Walter Blair (FL)
1915 Frank Snyder … Ray Schalk … Bill Rariden (FL)
1916 Hank Gowdy … Ray Schalk
1917 Bill Killefer … Ray Schalk
1918 B. Killefer / Walter Schmidt … Steve O'Neill
1919 Bill Killefer … Ray Schalk
1920 Mickey O'Neill … Ray Schalk
1921 Walter Schmidt … Ray Schalk
1922 Bob O'Farrell … Ray Schalk
1923 Frank Snyder … Muddy Ruel
1924 Zack Taylor … Muddy Ruel
1925 Frank Snyder … Muddy Ruel
1926 Bob O'Farrell … Luke Sewell
1927 Gabby Hartnett … Mickey Cochrane
1928 Gabby Hartnett … Mickey Cochrane
1929 Jimmie Wilson … Mickey Cochrane
1930 Gabby Hartnett … Mickey Cochrane
1931 Jimmie Wilson … Bill Dickey
1932 Earl Grace … Mickey Cochrane
1933 Gabby Hartnett … Rick Ferrell
1934 Gabby Hartnett … Rick Ferrell
1935 Gabby Hartnett … Bill Dickey
1936 Gus Mancuso … Luke Sewell
1937 Al Lopez / G. Hartnett … Bill Dickey
1938 Al Todd … Rudy York
1939 Harry Danning … Bill Dickey
1940 Harry Danning … Rollie Hemsley
1941 Mickey Owen … Bill Dickey
1942 Mickey Owen … Birdie Tebbetts
1943 Ray Mueller … Paul Richards
1944 Ray Mueller … Frankie Hayes
1945 Ken O'Dea … Frankie Hayes
1946 Ray Mueller … Buddy Rosar
1947 Bruce Edwards … Buddy Rosar
1948 Del Rice … Jim Hegan
1949 Roy Campanella … Jim Hegan
1950 Wes Westrum … Jim Hegan
1951 Roy Campanella … Yogi Berra
1952 Del Rice … Yogi Berra
1953 Roy Campanella … Sammy White
1954 Del Crandall … Jim Hegan
1955 Roy Campanella … Sherm Lollar
1956 Ed Bailey … Yogi Berra
1957 Roy Campanella … Yogi Berra
1958 Del Crandall … Yogi Berra
1959 Del Crandall … Sherm Lollar
1960 Hal Smith … Sherm Lollar
1961 Johnny Roseboro … Earl Battey
1962 Johnny Edwards … Earl Battey
1963 Johnny Edwards … Earl Battey
1964 Johnny Edwards … Elston Howard
1965 Tom Haller … Bill Freehan
1966 Johnny Roseboro … Bill Freehan
1967 Tim McCarver … Buck Rodgers
1968 Johnny Bench … Bill Freehan
1969 Randy Hundley … Bill Freehan
1970 Johnny Bench … George Mitterwald
1971 Manny Sanguillen … Bill Freehan
1972 Duffy Dyer … Ed Herrmann
1973 J. Bench / Joe Ferguson … Thurman Munson
1974 Johnny Bench … Glenn Borgmann
1975 Steve Yeager … Brian Downing
1976 Johnny Bench … Jim Sundberg
1977 Gary Carter … Jim Sundberg
1978 Gary Carter … Jim Sundberg
1979 Gary Carter … Jim Sundberg
1980 Gary Carter … Rick Cerone
1981 Gary Carter … Jim Sundberg
1982 Gary Carter … Bob Boone
1983 Gary Carter … Lance Parrish
1984 Tony Pena … Lance Parrish
1985 Gary Carter … Bob Boone
1986 G. Carter / Jody Davis … Rich Gedman
1987 Mike Scioscia … Ernie Whitt
1988 Tony Pena … Andy Allenson
1989 Mike Scioscia … Bob Boone
1990 Darren Daulton … Lance Parrish
1991 Tom Pagnozzi … Lance Parrish
1992 Joe Oliver … Ivan Rodriguez
1993 Rick Wilkins … Ron Karkovice
1994 Benito Santiago … Terry Steinbach
1995 Joe Girardi … Ivan Rodriguez
1996 Charles Johnson … Ivan Rodriguez
1997 Charles Johnson … Ivan Rodriguez
1998 Javier Lopez … Ivan Rodriguez
1999 Mike Lieberthal … Ivan Rodriguez
2000 Mike Matheny … Brad Ausmus
2001 Brad Ausmus … Einar Diaz
2002 Brad Ausmus … Bengie Molina
2003 Brian Schneider … Ramon Hernandez
2004 Brian Schneider … Damian Miller
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The Slaff Aug. 24, 2005, 11:47 AM Join Date: Jan 2003; Posts: 269
Win Shares Gold Gloves: Catchers
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Number of times:
9x
Gary Carter, Ray Schalk
7x
Gabby Hartnett
6x
Ivan Rodriguez
5x
Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Bill Freehan, Bill Killefer, Jim Sundberg
4x
Charlie Bennett, Buck Ewing, Jim Hegan, Lance Parrish, Ossee Schreckengost, Pop Snyder
3x
Brad Ausmus, Earl Battey, Doc Bushong, Del Crandall, Lou Criger, Bob Boone, Red Dooin, Johnny Edwards, Johnny Kling, Sherm Lollar, Ed McFarland, Ray Mueller, Muddy Ruel, Frank Snyder, Chief Zimmer
2x
Harry Danning, Duke Farrell, Rick Ferrell, George Gibson, Frankie Hayes, Charles Johnson, Deacon McGuire, Bob O'Farrell, Mickey Owen, Tony Pena, Wilbert Robinson, Buddy Rosar, Johnny Roseboro, Walter Schmidt, Brian Schneider, Mike Scioscia,
Luke Sewell, Ira Thomas, Jimmie Wilson
1x
Andy Allenson, Jimmy Archer, Ed Bailey, George Baker, Kid Baldwin, Walter Blair, Glenn Borgmann, Jack Boyle, Lew Brown
Rick Cerone, John Clapp, Tom Daly, Darren Daulton, Jody Davis, Einar Diaz, Brian Downing, Duffy Dyer, Bruce Edwards,
Joe Ferguson, Silver Flint, Rich Gedman, Barney Gill, Joe Girardi, Hank Gowdy, Earl Grace, John Grim, Tom Haller, Rollie Hemsley, John Henry, Ramon Hernandez, Ed Herrmann, Bill Holbert, Elston Howard, Randy Hundley, Ron Karkovice, Malachi Kittridge, Jack Lapp, Mike Lieberthal, Al Lopez, Javier Lopez, Gus Mancuso, Mike Matheny, Tim McCarver, Chief Meyers, Damian Miller, George Mitterwald, Bengie Molina, Pat Moran, Thurman Munson, Morgan Murphy, Jack O'Connor, Ken O'Dea, Joe Oliver, Mickey O'Neill, Steve O'Neill, Tom Pagnozzi, Bill Rariden, Del Rice, Paul Richards, Buck Rodgers, Manny Sanguillen, Benito Santiago, Admiral Schlei, Boss Schmidt, Terry Steinbach, Hal Smith, Billy Sullivan, Zack Taylor, Birdie Tebbetts, Al Todd, John Warner, Wes Westrum, Deacon White, Sammy White, Ernie Whitt, Rick Wilkins, Steve Yeager, Rudy York
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I took those informations in Bill James "Win Shares: Digital Update" available at stats-inc website.
Yearly win shares leaders are listed...
-Top 10 overall
-Top 5 pitching win shares
-Top 5 batting win shares
-Top 5 defensive win shares for every position .
...1876 through 2001
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Some Pre-1900 Catchers Caught Infrequently:
In the ancient times, pre-1900, many great catchers played very few games behind the plate. Many played other positions, due to the stress that crouching placed on their knees. A few of their records are:
"Deacon" James White: caught 226 g, out of 1299 total
Buck Ewing: caught 636 g, out of 1315 total, almost all in '80's. After that he lost his arm, and played 1B/OF in 90's.
Jim O'Rourke: caught 209 g, out of 1774
Mike "King" Kelly: caught 583 g, out of 1455. Mostly OF throughout career.
Roger Bresnahan: caught 974 g, out of 1446. Mostly OF otherwise.
Marty Bergen: caught 337 g, out of 344. Only played 4 seasons, 1896-99, before his mental illness caused him to take his own & his families lives.
Charlie Bennet: caught 954 g, out of 1062. OF otherwise.
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League schedules in those days were not the 154 games that came in later.
1883 ------- 100 games
1884, 1885 - 115 games
1886, 1887 - 125 games
1887-1891 - 135 games
1892 ------ 154 games
1893-1897 - 135 games
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So that was my post back when. And then AG2004 rebutted me nicely with this following rejoiner.
And let's not forget (just among those playing sometime in 1887)
Pop Snyder: caught 877 g, out of 930 (including National Association games).
Jack Clements: caught 1073 g, out of 1157.
Chief Zimmer: caught 1239 g, out of 1280.
Wilbert Robinson: caught 1316 g, out of 1371.
Deacon McGuire: caught 1611 g, out of 1781.
However, I'm wondering what happened to Ewing himself in 1887. Here are the number of games in which the following people caught for the (NL) club that season:
Williard Brown - 46. 21-year-old rookie.
Jim O'Rourke - 40. 36-year-old; one of only three seasons where he caught more than 15 games, and the only one where he played more games at catcher than at any other single position.
Pat Deasley - 24.
Pat Murphy - 17. 30-year-old making his first major league appearances.
Buck Ewing - 8.
Ewing played 19 games at 2nd and 51 at 3rd. This is in the middle of Ewing's prime years as a catcher, remember. Jim O'Rourke appeared in 38 games at 3rd that year, so it seems that Ewing could have had more appearances at catcher and O'Rourke could have had more appearances at third that season.
The 1887 season doesn't seem consistent with Ewing's being the greatest catcher ever. Does anyone know why Ewing was playing 3rd so often that year instead of catching?
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Mark Leece contributed this nice, brief post.
http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=37
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And Coop this one.
http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=32
http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=45
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Code:: Games Total Player as C Games % as C Debut =================================================== Deacon McGuire 1611 1781 90.5 1884-06-21 Wilbert Robinson 1316 1371 96.0 1886-04-19 Chief Zimmer 1239 1280 96.8 1884-07-18 Jack Clements 1073 1157 92.7 1884-04-22 Duke Farrell 1003 1563 64.2 1888-04-21 Charlie Bennett 954 1062 89.8 1878-05-01 Jack O'Connor 860 1451 59.3 1887-04-20 Pop Schriver 654 800 81.8 1886-04-29 Buck Ewing 636 1315 48.4 1880-09-09 Doggie Miller 636 1317 48.3 1884-05-01 Connie Mack 609 723 84.2 1886-09-11 Jocko Milligan 585 772 75.8 1884-05-01 King Kelly 583 1455 40.1 1878-05-01 Charlie Ganzel 578 786 73.5 1884-09-27 John Grim 578 706 81.9 1888-09-29 Farmer Vaughn 553 915 60.4 1886-10-07 Con Daily 550 630 87.3 1884-06-09 Jack Boyle 544 1086 50.1 1886-10-08 Bill Holbert 538 623 86.4 1876-09-05 Jack Ryan 527 616 85.6 1889-09-02
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