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Thread: Reached on Error

  1. #1

    Reached on Error

    Does RE count as an at bat? If so, it counts against a batting average?

  2. #2
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    Yes, it counts.

    If you hit a grounder to the shortstop and he throws the ball away, you are 0-1.
    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

  3. #3
    In the brilliance of MLB, if you make an out, but score a runner on a FB, it counts as a "let", 0-0, but counts for 0-1, if it's on a grounder. But, if you get on base without making an out, because the official scorer deemed something about the play, you are 0-1.

    However, for OBP, the SF *is* counted as an opportunity.

    Reaching on Error *is* a skill (be it linked to a hitter's GB tendency, speed, handedness, how hard he hits the ball, or other extra skill). It is not a random event.

    http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/S/Psuzui001.htm

    Ichiro: 68 ROE, on around 4400 PA.

    http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/T/Pthomf001.htm

    Frank Thomas: 72 ROE, on double the number of Ichiro's PA.

    MLB insistence to treat the ROE and SF as-is is simply to perpetuate a problem they've had for decades because they didn't know any better then, and don't want to know any better now.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tango Tiger View Post

    Reaching on Error *is* a skill (be it linked to a hitter's GB tendency, speed, handedness, how hard he hits the ball, or other extra skill). It is not a random event.
    I generally, agree with you, but I would not call it a skill. It is an outcome that is tied to other skills but not necessarily something a player can try to do.
    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by digglahhh View Post
    I generally, agree with you, but I would not call it a skill. It is an outcome that is tied to other skills but not necessarily something a player can try to do.
    I agree with both Tango and digglahhh.

    But while you are complaining about how these items are treated, may I add the definition of error to the list?

    Physical errors count, but mental errors do not. For example, if the outfielder runs in and it goes flying over his head, it is not deemed an error. If a player pops it up to the infield and the 3Bman, pitcher and catcher all watch it fall between them, it is not deemed an error. Per the rules, I believe the player actually needs to touch the ball for it to be an error (they define misplays as fumble, muff or wild throw), but these two cases of misplays that I have described should be considered errors.

    Less egregious examples include overthrowing the cutoff man to allow a runner to advance, throwing to the wrong base to allow the runner to advance, the whole rule that you can't assume the double play, etc.

  6. #6
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    I think when you get into what is defined as an error and what it does for the game you find it isn't much. It's essentially a totally subjective judgement by the scorer and the even more subjective definition on what an error actually is. I've heard some scorers say it has to touch the fielder's glove or go right by it for him to call something an error. But not all scorers abide by that. The result is that everyone really has a different idea for what an error exactly is. One scorer may mark a play an error, but another may call it a hit. There is just isn't much conformity on what EXACTLY an error is.

    Never mind the fact that certain types of hitters do get much more ROE than others, as it was said a player with speed who tends to hit more groudballs like Ichiro will get more ROE than a slow, flyball hitter like a Frank Thomas. Then there's even the problem with pitchers, I'm sure that a pitcher like a Tommy John gave up much more ROE in his career than someone like Nolan Ryan (that also messes with the whole concept of an "earned" run, doesn't it?). Craig Wright in The Diamond Appraised suggested that baseball would be better with errorless scoring, I don't totally disagree with him. In fact I probably agree with him that would be the better way to go, it's just that it would screw with the records of the game we already have in place. Is there even ROE data going back through all of history?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklyn View Post
    I agree with both Tango and digglahhh.

    But while you are complaining about how these items are treated, may I add the definition of error to the list?

    Physical errors count, but mental errors do not. For example, if the outfielder runs in and it goes flying over his head, it is not deemed an error. If a player pops it up to the infield and the 3Bman, pitcher and catcher all watch it fall between them, it is not deemed an error. Per the rules, I believe the player actually needs to touch the ball for it to be an error (they define misplays as fumble, muff or wild throw), but these two cases of misplays that I have described should be considered errors.

    Less egregious examples include overthrowing the cutoff man to allow a runner to advance, throwing to the wrong base to allow the runner to advance, the whole rule that you can't assume the double play, etc.
    That's more of a custom than a rule. It doesn't state anywhere in the rule book that a player must touch the ball to be charged with an error. I think that concept was adopted to remove the subjectivity of expectation from scorer to scorer. This approach is flawed, but scorers assigning errors based on the plays he/she feels a player should have made opens up a can of worms with even worse and more diabolic potential.
    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

  8. #8
    I don't have a problem with aggregating a column called "ROE". I actually applaud that.

    My problem is in the decision-making for batting average to exclude SF entirely, and count ROE as an out. But for OBP, include SF as an out.

    When you look at DER (or 1 minus BABIP, batting average on balls in play), it's clear that you want to include SF as an out. the fielders didn't make an out on the ROE, so you want it to not count as an out (and therefore, count it as a safe play).

    So, follow with me. When the denominator is PA-SH-BB-HBP-SO-HR, you want SF included in the denominator. Hence, BABIP.

    When the denominator is PA-SH, you want SF included in the denominator, hence OBP.

    But, when you have something in betweem, PA-SH-BB-HBP, you want to exclude SF?

    This is all a way to keep players "happy" about doing their "job", and getting a SF. Well, they already get an RBI in the deal. No reason to pretend they didn't make an out.

  9. #9
    Code:
    Here are the leaders since 1950:
    +-----------------+-----+-------------------------+
     Pete Rose           205 
     Luis Aparicio       191 
     Hank Aaron          186 
     Derek Jeter         184
     Robin Yount         181 
     Bert Campaneris     170 
     Roberto Clemente    169 
     Craig Biggio        169 
     Vada Pinson         168 
     Al Kaline           167 
     Cal Ripken          164 
     Frank Robinson      162 
     Rickey Henderson    159 
     Lou Brock           158 
     Brooks Robinson     153 
     Andre Dawson        153
     Paul Molitor        152 
     Rod Carew           150 
     Dave Winfield       148 
     Tony Perez          147

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