Reyes/Ramirez

[ChrisLDuncan]

Recently Jayson Stark wrote a column of the most underrated players in MLB...he listed Hanley Ramirez third


Here's what he had to say about Hanley

We liked playing that Player A versus Player B game so much, let's try it again.

Player A is a National League shortstop. He is averaging a .303 batting average, 129 runs scored, 76 extra-base hits and 52 stolen bases per 162 games in his career.

Player B is also an NL shortstop. He's averaging .288, 114 runs, 60 extra-base hits and 61 steals per 162 games.

Player A is 23. So is Player B. So which one would you start your team with?

If I didn't tell you the names, I'm betting you'd take Player A, right? But now let's reverse that. Let's say I had never shown you those numbers. And then I asked if you'd rather have Ramirez (aka Player A) or Jose Reyes (Player B). Then what?

Admit it. You'd take Reyes. Heck, to be honest, I'd probably take Reyes myself. But does anybody who doesn't own a teal cap know Ramirez's numbers are actually better? Dubious. Which sums up his underratedness just about perfectly.

But why is Hanley so underrated? I am willing to bet just about anything that Reyes will start for the NL at SS in the ASG...even though Hanley is doing much better. Why doesn't anyone appreciate Hanley? Even fantasy owners, who should appreciate him, would probably rather have Reyes (they're also dumb for doing such)

[The Great Nom]

Recently Jayson Stark wrote a column of the most underrated players in MLB...he listed Hanley Ramirez third


Here's what he had to say about Hanley




But why is Hanley so underrated? I am willing to bet just about anything that Reyes will start for the NL at SS in the ASG...even though Hanley is doing much better. Why doesn't anyone appreciate Hanley? Even fantasy owners, who should appreciate him, would probably rather have Reyes (they're also dumb for doing such)

From a fantasy perspective, they're valuable because of their speed. Reyes has almost twice as many stolen bags. Reyes also plays in a much better lineup, meaning more runs and RBI opportunities. There's really nothing that would make you take Hanley over Reyes for fantasy purposes at the moment.

As for why Hanley's underrated, it's because he plays in Florida. If Ramirez played in New York and Reyes in Florida, we'd be talking about how underrated Reyes is.

I disagree with the notion that Ramirez is playing way better than Reyes anyway. Ramirez's lead in OPS is because he's got 7 homers to Reyes's 2, but Jose still has more extra base hits. And this is while Reyes is in the midst of a week slump.

They're a toss up.

And I completely disagree with using their career stats to talk about where they are now. Reyes is a completely different player than he was when he came up at 21. He was also younger than Hanley, so he got less time to grow in the minors.

[Zagi-CRO]

H.Ramirez vs. J.Reyes 6.5 - 6.0

/1 the worst - 10 the best/

[AutographCollector]

Why doesn't anyone appreciate Hanley?

IMO: Because he plays for Florida. They obviously aren't as good as the Mets are. Hence Reyes gets the spotlight. Simple as that.

[digglahhh]

Well, there are other advantages Reyes has over Ramirez. He is a switch hitter, which many people like. He is a very good shortstop too, while Hanley is a butcher. I think Reyes is clearly a step ahead, but that step in not nearly as big as most people think. I think part of the reason that Hanley is underrated, even fantasy-wise, is also that last season was his break-out. A lot of people were wary about trusting him to repeat that performance. Reyes was much more established (albeit, somewhat undeservingly because he wasn't really that productive in 2005). The overlooking of Hanley will not happen again next year, as he is convincing the public that 2006 was no fluke.

[KCGHOST]

People keep confusing underhyped with underrated.

These guys are very comparable and any team would be happy to have them as their SS of the now and future.

[Brooklyn]

But why is Hanley so underrated? I am willing to bet just about anything that Reyes will start for the NL at SS in the ASG...even though Hanley is doing much better.

I think doing much better is a stretch. Lets look at their stats so far:

They've both played 48 games. Reyes has had 8 more plate appearances (232-224), so we are talking about a very similar sample size.

Their batting average is similar (.320 for HR to .312 for JR)
OBP is similar (.396 for HR to .392 for JR)
Hanley has the clear advantage in Slugging (.518 to .478)
Reyes has the clear advantage is SB (28/33 to 15/19)

On the above stats, I'd give Hanley the edge, mostly because of the better slugging percentages.

But lets look at some of the "team stats". Hanley leads in runs, 43-39. But Reyes leads in RBIs, 24-12. The first reaction would be that the Mets are a better team so Reyes has more opportunities to get RBI's. Breaking down the numbers, Reyes has had 59 plate appearances with runners in scoring position, Ramirez has had 51. It give Reyes and advantage, but not as much to account for the 2:1 edge in RBI's. The reason for the 2:1 edge? In the 51 plate appearances, Ramirez is batting .186 / .286 / .186 with no extra base hits and 4 RBI's. In Reyes' 59 plate appearances, he is batting .308 / .390 / .519 with 20 RBIs. So while Ramirez has done significantly worse with RISP, Reyes has done better in those situations. Further, 6 of Ramirez's 7 homeruns have come with the bases empty, and other other with a runner on first. While he has had more power early on, he hasn't been maximizing it with all his solo shots. When people discount RBIs as a "team stat", I think you need to look behind the numbers. In this case, the RBI total look to reflect how the players have performed in key situations.

I'll admit I'm biased, but I'd put Reyes over Ramirez as the starting shortstop right now. Of course there is a lot of season left to play. I can see giving the edge to Ramirez, but he is clearly not doing "much better".

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well, there are other advantages Reyes has over Ramirez. He is a switch hitter, which many people like. He is a very good shortstop too, while Hanley is a butcher. I think Reyes is clearly a step ahead, but that step in not nearly as big as most people think. I think part of the reason that Hanley is underrated, even fantasy-wise, is also that last season was his break-out. A lot of people were wary about trusting him to repeat that performance. Reyes was much more established (albeit, somewhat undeservingly because he wasn't really that productive in 2005). The overlooking of Hanley will not happen again next year, as he is convincing the public that 2006 was no fluke.

Reyes better defensively? He's having a good defensive season so far, but last season I'm pretty sure that by FRAA he was the worst defenisve SS in all of baseball...12 runs worse than Hanley.

[digglahhh]

Reyes better defensively? He's having a good defensive season so far, but last season I'm pretty sure that by FRAA he was the worst defenisve SS in all of baseball...12 runs worse than Hanley.

Whatever that means. I don't trust the defensive metrics much at all. I have the Extra Innings package and watch A LOT of games. Hanley is a butcher; not Carlos Guillen bad, but bad nonetheless. Reyes has very good range and a cannon. If FRAA showed Reyes as being inferior defensively to somebody like Carlos Guillen, it has big time problems.

[The Great Nom]

Reyes better defensively? He's having a good defensive season so far, but last season I'm pretty sure that by FRAA he was the worst defenisve SS in all of baseball...12 runs worse than Hanley.

Yeah, that's what happens when you don't actually watch the games. You end up thinking absolutely ridiculous things.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Hanley's a butcher, but he's not as good defensively as Jose.

[digglahhh]

I wouldn't go as far as to say Hanley's a butcher, but he's not as good defensively as Jose.

Perhaps, I was being hyperbolic. He has lapses sometimes, though, where you'd swear the guy has feet for hands. I think most would agree actually, that Reyes is up there with the best in the game - not THE best, mind you, but in the overall top tier of defensive shortstops.

[The Great Nom]

Perhaps, I was being hyperbolic. He has lapses sometimes, though, where you'd swear the guy has feet for hands. I think most would agree actually, that Reyes is up there with the best in the game - not THE best, mind you, but in the overall top tier of defensive shortstops.

I've made that point a few times on here, and then people who don't watch him bring up defensive statistics. It's just funny to see some of these people talk as if they have any idea what they're talking about.

[538280]

Well, there are other advantages Reyes has over Ramirez. He is a switch hitter, which many people like. He is a very good shortstop too, while Hanley is a butcher. I think Reyes is clearly a step ahead, but that step in not nearly as big as most people think. I think part of the reason that Hanley is underrated, even fantasy-wise, is also that last season was his break-out. A lot of people were wary about trusting him to repeat that performance. Reyes was much more established (albeit, somewhat undeservingly because he wasn't really that productive in 2005). The overlooking of Hanley will not happen again next year, as he is convincing the public that 2006 was no fluke.

Hanley really sprung on everyone at the end of last year too. His stats weren't all that around until late August into September. For most of the year people looked at Ramirez's stats and weren't all that impressed. For most of the year people didn't look at 2006 as a huge breakout. Dan Uggla was looking better for most of the year.

[538280]

Perhaps, I was being hyperbolic. He has lapses sometimes, though, where you'd swear the guy has feet for hands. I think most would agree actually, that Reyes is up there with the best in the game - not THE best, mind you, but in the overall top tier of defensive shortstops.

Reyes seems excellent to me as well, but for what it's worth statistical metrics saw Reyes as a very weak defensive SS in 2006. BP has him 15 runs below average and DWS had him ranked 29th among all ML shortstops. Statistically it appears Reyes is doing better so far in 2007 though.

[utterchaos jr.]

Recently Jayson Stark wrote a column of the most underrated players in MLB...he listed Hanley Ramirez third


Here's what he had to say about Hanley




But why is Hanley so underrated? I am willing to bet just about anything that Reyes will start for the NL at SS in the ASG...even though Hanley is doing much better. Why doesn't anyone appreciate Hanley? Even fantasy owners, who should appreciate him, would probably rather have Reyes (they're also dumb for doing such)

Because Rameriz has played what 2 seasons...It is not that hard to keep a SB rate that high in less than 2 seasons
Also, what about the homerun totals, triple totals, and fielding totals...did he forget??
Well, Reyes does have less homeruns per year, but increasing totals as he gets more power
Still, He his getting faster because he is on pace for 71 stolen bases
Reyes also strikes out 85 times a year compared to Hanley's 129 SO...
Also, Hanley has 1 IBB yet reyes has 4 this year when Reyes is walked to get to Beltran, Delgado, Lo Duca, Green, and Wright?
Yes, Hanley is walked to get to Jacobs and Cabrera, but, Reyes is a more dangerous threat...
If you compare the fielding stats, Jose has 2 errors this year and Hanley has 9. Plus, Reyes has a rocket arm that is more strong than Hanleys top-gun arm.
The R.B.I totals are 55 per season and 70 a season, I believe Reyes averages the 70...
Hanley also averages 11 triples a season which is 5 less than Met's leadoff hitter

What is the matter now? Look at the numbers you gys forgot...

[utterchaos jr.]

I've made that point a few times on here, and then people who don't watch him bring up defensive statistics. It's just funny to see some of these people talk as if they have any idea what they're talking about.

True, I watch him a lot, and he makes amazing stops, dives, catches, outs, and throws
YOu can't expect him to make every play! He only has 2 errors this season!