Mock 1936 BBWAA Election

[Brad Harris]

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS – New Year’s Day, 1936

Baseball Announces Plans for “Hall of Fame”
New Year’s Day, 1936

New York, NY – Commissioner Landis announced that a national Hall of Fame is at last in the works. Groundbreaking will begin this spring on the museum, to be located in Cooperstown, NY, widely believed to be the birthplace of the national game. In the meantime, Landis extended an invitation to baseball writers across the country to participate in the selection process for the shrine’s immortals.

Long has the argument been waged over the identity of baseball’s all-time greats. At last, there will be a forum for official recognition of these giants. The Commissioner unveiled the ballot and it reads like a virtual roll call of baseball titans. Writers were asked to vote for no more than ten players. Any player on which three-fourths of the voters agree will be enshrined at the Hall of Fame’s grand opening.

The Commissioner also announced the formation of an Old-Timers Committee to give recognition to the greats from the game’s early days. More details were not given except to say that the voters on the committee would represent the game’s most knowledgeable followers.

The 120 names appearing on the writers’ ballot are listed below.

Pitcher – Babe Adams, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Jim Bagby, Chief Bender, Three Finger Brown, Joe Bush, Jack Chesbro, Eddie Cicotte, Jack Coombs, Wilbur Cooper, Stan Coveleski, Clark Griffith, Walter Johnson, Addie Joss, Sam Leever, Dutch Leonard, Rube Marquard, Christy Mathewson, Carl Mays, Joe McGinnity, George Mullin, Kid Nichols, Orval Overall, Deacon Phillippe, Eddie Plank, Ed Reulbach, Bob Shawkey, Urban Shocker, Jesse Tannehill, Jack Taylor, Hippo Vaughn, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Smokey Joe Wood, Cy Young

Catchers – Roger Bresnahan, Johnny Kling, Deacon McGuire, Steve O’Neill, Ray Schalk, Hank Severeid

First Base – Jake Beckley, George H. Burns, Frank Chance, Hal Chase, Jake Daubert, Harry Davis, Jack Fournier, Ed Konetchy, Stuffy McInnis, Fred Merkle, Wally Pipp, George Sisler, Fred Tenney

Second Base – Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Johnny Evers, Kid Gleason, Miller Huggins, Napoleon Lajoie, Del Pratt, Jimmy Williams

Third Base – Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins, Lave Cross, Art Devlin, Larry Gardner, Heinie Groh, Arlie Latham, Tommy Leach, Hans Lobert, John McGraw, Buck Weaver

Shortstop – Dave Bancroft, Jack Barry, Donie Bush, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Art Fletcher, Hughie Jennings, Roger Peckinpaugh, Everett Scott, Joe Tinker, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace

Outfield – Ginger Beaumont, George J. Burns, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Ty Cobb, Gavvy Cravath, Sam Crawford, Mike Donlin, Hugh Duffy, Elmer Flick, Topsy Hartsell, Piano Legs Hickman, Harry Hooper, Joe Jackson, Baby Doll Jacobson, Fielder Jones, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Bob Meusel, Irish Meusel, Clyde Milan, Wildfire Schulte, Cy Seymour, Jimmy Sheckard, Tris Speaker, George Stone, Roy Thomas, Sam Thompson, Bobby Veach, Zach Wheat, Cy Williams, Ken Williams, Ross Youngs

Yes! It’s another mock-Hall of Fame project. What makes this one different? We’re going back to 1936 to start this thing over again and we’re going to apply what has essentially been the core rules of the system from the very beginning. This should give us a very similar pool of candidates to compare between elections. Anyone is free to vote. Here are the rules being applied:

• Only players listed on the ballot are eligible for election.
• Players appearing on the ballot last played anywhere from 1906-1930.
• Players named on 75% of the ballots will be inducted.
• A voter may vote for 0-10 candidates.
• There is no ineligibility rule for “banned” players at this point.
• The 5% and 15 years-on-the-ballot-and-done rules will begin with the 1950 ballot to be fair to the earliest retirees on this ballot (Brown, Crawford, etc.).
• The 5-year wait is in effect (which is why Ruth isn’t eligible yet).
• Retain the “no automatic induction” rule.
• Eligibility rules are not waived in case of premature death of a candidate.
• VERBATIM: “Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
• Each annual election is open for ballot submission Monday to Friday. Results are announced over each weekend.
• Old-Timers Committee being formed in separate thread.

For organizational purposes, balloting for the 1936 BBWAA election will not begin until Monday, June 4.

Feel free to ask any questions here.

[Freakshow]

Interesting project. I assume the omission of Heinie Groh is an oversight? Otherwise, a really good candidate list; Babe Adams might also be added.

A suggestion: to match the real HOF more closely, extend eligibilty back another decade, to include 1906-15 retirees. (The Hall did not reduce the limit to 20 years ago until the 1964 election.) That way, our elections would be considering a pool of players very similar to what the early HOF voters were looking at, one that includes all the 20th century stars (including BBWAA selections Young and Keeler).

[538280]

So we vote for however many we feel are qualified, right, with a limit of 10? Here's my list:

C: None
1B: None
2B: Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie
3B: Frank Baker,
SS: Honus Wagner
OF: Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Tris Speaker
P: Pete Alexander, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson

[Captain Cold Nose]

So we vote for however many we feel are qualified, right, with a limit of 10? Here's my list:

C: None
1B: None
2B: Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie
3B: Frank Baker, Heinie Groh (like Freakshow I assume this was an oversight)
SS: Hughie Jennings, Honus Wagner
OF: Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Sherry Magee, Tris Speaker

Not one qualified pitcher?

[J W]

edit -- premature ballot, discount

[Captain Cold Nose]

Grover Cleveland Alexander
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
George Sisler
Eddie Collins
Nap Lajoie
Honus Wagner
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Cy Young

[Erik Bedard]

Ummm... guys, balloting doesn't start for another week.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Ummm... guys, balloting doesn't start for another week.

Speak for yourself. We're all just ahead of our time.

[KCGHOST]

Good luck on Joe Jackson.

[Brad Harris]

Interesting project. I assume the omission of Heinie Groh is an oversight? Otherwise, a really good candidate list; Babe Adams might also be added.

A suggestion: to match the real HOF more closely, extend eligibilty back another decade, to include 1906-15 retirees. (The Hall did not reduce the limit to 20 years ago until the 1964 election.) That way, our elections would be considering a pool of players very similar to what the early HOF voters were looking at, one that includes all the 20th century stars (including BBWAA selections Young and Keeler).

Groh was an oversight. He and Adams have been added, along with another 43 candidates who retired from 1906-1915. The total number of candidates on this ballot is now 120 and their retirement years stretch from 1906-1930.

To be fair to these candidates, and taking into account the large number of well-qualified candidates on these earliest ballots, the 15-year and 5% drop rules won't be instituted until the 15th ballot these men appear on (1950). Yes, this will mean a lot of people will forever drop off the BBWAA ballot all at once, but all the more reason to cast a full ballot and take your selections seriously.

I certainly don't mind people discussion their ballots out loud. But the final ballot must be PMed to me during the timeframe (Mon-Fri) previously discussed. This thread is for informational purposes only.

Those who have suggestions for who I should name as voters to the "Old-Timers" Committee should PM me with the names of BBF members who would do a good job and a little blurb on why they're qualified. I will announce the committee members as soon as I've made my decision and spoken with the people in question (as holding a general "election" to determine these people has been frowned upon from on high.)

Thanks again for the catch, Dan. Everyone, please feel free to follow Dan's lead. I'm far from infallible.

[Freakshow]

To be fair to these candidates, and taking into account the large number of well-qualified candidates on these earliest ballots, the 15-year and 5% drop rules won't be instituted until the 15th ballot these men appear on (1950). Yes, this will mean a lot of people will forever drop off the BBWAA ballot all at once, but all the more reason to cast a full ballot and take your selections seriously.

So 1950 would be the last year for retirees 1906-30? I suggest a gradual phase-in; drastic upheavals often have unforeseen consequences.

Here's one way:
After 1950, drop 1906-10 retirees
After 1951, drop 1911-15 retirees
After 1952, drop 1916-20 retirees
After 1953, drop 1921-25 retirees
After 1954, drop 1926-30 retirees
After 1955, drop 1931-35 retirees

Or a speedier plan:
After 1950, drop 1906-14 retirees
After 1951, drop 1915-23 retirees
After 1952, drop 1924-32 retirees

There's a hundred ways you could do it, but throwning out a hundred candidates at once totally throws out everything that came before. I don't think it's wise.

Thanks again for the catch, Dan. Everyone, please feel free to follow Dan's lead. I'm far from infallible.

Another player you might add to the ballot: Roy Thomas.

[Freakshow]

Or even better. For the 1947 election, following the VC elections of 1945-46, the Hall seems to have adopted a stricter ~30-year limit. (After 1946, the BBWAA ejected from the ballot Brown, Crawford, Joss, Nichols, Kling, Rucker, et al.) Then, in 1964, they adopted a 20-year limit.

This scheme tracks closely with these points when the HOF made their changes.

After 1945, drop 1906-11 retirees
After 1946, drop 1912-16 retirees

So in 1947, you have 1917-41 retirees on the ballot. Maintain this 30-year limit through 1961. Then

After 1961, drop 1931-35 retirees
After 1962, drop 1936-39 retirees
After 1963, drop 1940-43 retirees

So, in 1964 you have 1944-58 retirees on the ballot. Maintain this 20-year limit from then on.

Or if it's too complicated, forget it. Just trying to help.

[Brad Harris]

Or even better. For the 1947 election, following the VC elections of 1945-46, the Hall seems to have adopted a stricter ~30-year limit. (After 1946, the BBWAA ejected from the ballot Brown, Crawford, Joss, Nichols, Kling, Rucker, et al.) Then, in 1964, they adopted a 20-year limit.

This scheme tracks closely with these points when the HOF made their changes.

After 1945, drop 1906-11 retirees
After 1946, drop 1912-16 retirees

So in 1947, you have 1917-41 retirees on the ballot. Maintain this 30-year limit through 1961. Then

After 1961, drop 1931-35 retirees
After 1962, drop 1936-39 retirees
After 1963, drop 1940-43 retirees

So, in 1964 you have 1944-58 retirees on the ballot. Maintain this 20-year limit from then on.

Or if it's too complicated, forget it. Just trying to help.

Fantastic plan! We'll do exactly this. Thank you.

Also decided to wait to implement the 5% until it actually went into effect.

Roy Thomas replaces Casey Stengel on the ballot, btw.

[538280]

Not one qualified pitcher?

You're right, that was just a mistake. Groh, Jennings, and Magee will have to wait.

[Brad Harris]

THE BALLOT

Pitcher – Babe Adams, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Jim Bagby, Chief Bender, Three Finger Brown, Joe Bush, Jack Chesbro, Eddie Cicotte, Jack Coombs, Wilbur Cooper, Stan Coveleski, Clark Griffith, Walter Johnson, Addie Joss, Sam Leever, Dutch Leonard, Rube Marquard, Christy Mathewson, Carl Mays, Joe McGinnity, George Mullin, Kid Nichols, Orval Overall, Deacon Phillippe, Eddie Plank, Ed Reulbach, Bob Shawkey, Urban Shocker, Jesse Tannehill, Jack Taylor, Hippo Vaughn, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Smokey Joe Wood, Cy Young

Catchers – Roger Bresnahan, Johnny Kling, Deacon McGuire, Steve O’Neill, Ray Schalk, Hank Severeid

First Base – Jake Beckley, George H. Burns, Frank Chance, Hal Chase, Jake Daubert, Harry Davis, Jack Fournier, Ed Konetchy, Stuffy McInnis, Fred Merkle, Wally Pipp, George Sisler, Fred Tenney

Second Base – Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Johnny Evers, Kid Gleason, Miller Huggins, Napoleon Lajoie, Del Pratt, Jimmy Williams

Third Base – Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins, Lave Cross, Art Devlin, Larry Gardner, Heinie Groh, Arlie Latham, Tommy Leach, Hans Lobert, John McGraw, Buck Weaver

Shortstop – Dave Bancroft, Jack Barry, Donie Bush, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Art Fletcher, Hughie Jennings, Roger Peckinpaugh, Everett Scott, Joe Tinker, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace

Outfield – Ginger Beaumont, George J. Burns, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Ty Cobb, Gavvy Cravath, Sam Crawford, Mike Donlin, Hugh Duffy, Elmer Flick, Topsy Hartsell, Piano Legs Hickman, Harry Hooper, Joe Jackson, Baby Doll Jacobson, Fielder Jones, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Bob Meusel, Irish Meusel, Clyde Milan, Wildfire Schulte, Cy Seymour, Jimmy Sheckard, Tris Speaker, George Stone, Roy Thomas, Sam Thompson, Bobby Veach, Zach Wheat, Cy Williams, Ken Williams, Ross Youngs

Please vote by listing 0-10 players from this ballot. Rules can be found at the start of this thread. Also, feel free to discuss any candidates you care to. Players don't have to be ranked, nor do they have to be alphabetized (though that's helpful to me, of course). You are certainly not required to vote for one player at each position; they are only listed that way for your convenience.

Voters with more than ten selections won't have any of their selections count. Only ballots that are posted below this or PMed to me will count.

Voting closes after midnight Friday.

[Brad Harris]

Grover Cleveland Alexander
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Sam Crawford
Walter Johnson
Nap Lajoie
Christy Mathewson
Tris Speaker
Honus Wagner
Cy Young

[Cougar]

No particular order, although the last two are my most marginal for this ballot (among these worthies).

C. Mathewson
W. Johnson
G.C. Alexander
E. Collins
N. Lajoie
H. Wagner
T. Speaker
T. Cobb
Cy Young
Sam Crawford

[soberdennis]

Yes! It’s another mock-Hall of Fame project. What makes this one different? We’re going back to 1936 to start this thing over again and we’re going to apply what has essentially been the core rules of the system from the very beginning. This should give us a very similar pool of candidates to compare between elections. Anyone is free to vote. Here are the rules being applied:

• Only players listed on the ballot are eligible for election.
• Players appearing on the ballot last played anywhere from 1906-1930.
• Players named on 75% of the ballots will be inducted.
• A voter may vote for 0-10 candidates.
• There is no ineligibility rule for “banned” players at this point.
• The 5% and 15 years-on-the-ballot-and-done rules will begin with the 1950 ballot to be fair to the earliest retirees on this ballot (Brown, Crawford, etc.).
• The 5-year wait is in effect (which is why Ruth isn’t eligible yet).
• Retain the “no automatic induction” rule.
• Eligibility rules are not waived in case of premature death of a candidate.
• VERBATIM: “Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
• Each annual election is open for ballot submission Monday to Friday. Results are announced over each weekend.
• Old-Timers Committee being formed in separate thread.

For organizational purposes, balloting for the 1936 BBWAA election will not begin until Monday, June 4.

Feel free to ask any questions here.

T. Cobb
J. Jackson
H. Wagner
T. Speaker
G. Alexander
W. Johnson
C.Mathewson
E. Collins
C. Young

[Erik Bedard]

Walter Johnson
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Nap Lajoie
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Kid Nichols
Cy Young
Honus Wagner
Christy Mathewson
Tris Speaker

[Ubiquitous]

Grover Cleveland Alexander
Three Finger Brown
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Cy Young
Hippo Vaughn
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Honus Wagner
Eddie Collins

[DoubleX]

Pete Alexander
Eddie Collins
Ty Cobb
Sam Crawford
Walter Johnson
Napoleon Lajoie
Christy Mathewson
Tris Speaker
Honus Wagner
Cy Young

Had to leave off a lot of players I'd otherwise vote for.

[leecemark]

--There are more worthy players, but coming up with a top 10 was fairly straight forward IMO.

Pete Alexander
Eddie Collins
Sam Crawford
Ty Cobb
Walter Johnson
Nap Lajoie
Christy Mathewson
Tris Speaker
Honus Wagner
Cy Young

[leecemark]

Only Eligibility rules are not waived in case of premature death of a candidate.


--Question on the bolded rule regarding no eligibility waiver for premature death. Addie Joss died prior to his 10th season. Should he be removed from the ballot (not that he should get any votes in the first election anyway) or does this just mean no waiver of the 5 year waiting period?

[Brad Harris]

Only Eligibility rules are not waived in case of premature death of a candidate.


--Question on the bolded rule regarding no eligibility waiver for premature death. Addie Joss died prior to his 10th season. Should he be removed from the ballot (not that he should get any votes in the first election anyway) or does this just mean no waiver of the 5 year waiting period?

It just means the 5-year waiting period won't be waived if someone dies before they'd otherwise be eligible (ie. Lou Gehrig, Roberto Clemente). Of course, in 1936, it wouldn't apply to Joss anyway.

[MadHatter]

When does this begin? I find it very interesting and have been eagerly voting in the past polls.