GBOs to FBOs for HS aged Pitchers

[scorekeeper]

Just wonderin’ if what I’m seein’ and what my numbers are showin’ is generally what others are seeing.

I’m talking HS age ball and below, and I’m talking about “NORMAL” teams, not teams made up like the Jr Oly team is made, where the best 18 players out of over 5,000 of the best in the country, are all put on one team.

The appearance based on the numbers I have is, P’s who get more fly ball outs than ground ball outs, seem to have a higher degree of “success”, or at least don’t enjoy such great success that its a trait in a HS P that should be sought out or the deciding one.

I suspect the reason is, at that level and below, there is a lot higher chance of an error being made on a GB, and that translates to more runners per out.

[bladestriker]

....

I suspect the reason is, at that level and below, there is a lot higher chance of an error being made on a GB, and that translates to more runners per out.

Right, there are more variables, grounders or line drives have to be fielded cleanly, thrown properly, and caught for the put out. Fly balls just have to be caught....if kept in the park.

[Jake Patterson]

I suspect the reason is, at that level and below, there is a lot higher chance of an error being made on a GB, and that translates to more runners per out.

I have nothing to support this, but I would suspect this is pretty close.

[scorekeeper]

Right, there are more variables, grounders or line drives have to be fielded cleanly, thrown properly, and caught for the put out. Fly balls just have to be caught....if kept in the park.

Although I keep some pretty detailed records, I’m afraid HS records by and large are pretty meager, but I’m gonna guess that the odds of a HS player takin’ a ball out, are far less than a ML player. If that’s true, and I don’t know for sure that it is or isn’t, I don’t think worrying about balls sailin’ over fences is really something to worry about.

WE had a team good enough to make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs this season, and in the 30 games we played, our P’s faced 858 batters, giving up 6 jacks. That’s a HR every 143 PA’s. On the other hand, in 938 PA’s, our team hit exactly 1 HR. Also, our OF’rs only made 2 E’s while making 113 PO’s and 6 A’s.

I know it looks a little bit crazy, and definitely against all baseball dogma, but it almost seems as though it might be beneficial for coaches to start calling locations and pitches that might get the batters to hit the ball in the air.

[bladestriker]

Although I keep some pretty detailed records, I’m afraid HS records by and large are pretty meager, but I’m gonna guess that the odds of a HS player takin’ a ball out, are far less than a ML player. If that’s true, and I don’t know for sure that it is or isn’t, I don’t think worrying about balls sailin’ over fences is really something to worry about.

WE had a team good enough to make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs this season, and in the 30 games we played, our P’s faced 858 batters, giving up 6 jacks. That’s a HR every 143 PA’s. On the other hand, in 938 PA’s, our team hit exactly 1 HR. Also, our OF’rs only made 2 E’s while making 113 PO’s and 6 A’s.

I know it looks a little bit crazy, and definitely against all baseball dogma, but it almost seems as though it might be beneficial for coaches to start calling locations and pitches that might get the batters to hit the ball in the air.

Well this was one of Charley Lau's philosiphy's of hitting. You have a better chance of reaching base on a hard hit line drive/grounder than a fly ball. The opposite would be true for pitchers to succeed versus hitters. This transcended all levels of play, MLB to LL.

Interesting take from a pitchers point of view. I am guessing you would pitch according to your teams defensive strengths...

[scorekeeper]

Well this was one of Charley Lau's philosiphy's of hitting.

I think ya gotta look at statements from “gurus” a lot closer than looking at his ability to get a book published. After all, look at all the books that get published that are trash.

You have a better chance of reaching base on a hard hit line drive/grounder than a fly ball.

I don’t know if that’s true, but I suspect that as technology allows the building of bigger and better data bases, the SABR guys will be able to tell us for a fact what’s true and what isn’t.

The opposite would be true for pitchers to succeed versus hitters. This transcended all levels of play, MLB to LL.

Now that I’d argue with a bit.

Interesting take from a pitchers point of view. I am guessing you would pitch according to your teams defensive strengths...

Wouldn’t it be foolish not to? FI, if you have 3 guys in the OF who can fly, play in a park a big as the Grand Canyon, and your IF’rs a there for their offensive prowess, why not make sure you have P’s on staff that aren’t primarily sinker ball throwers?

[bladestriker]

Wouldn’t it be foolish not to? FI, if you have 3 guys in the OF who can fly, play in a park a big as the Grand Canyon, and your IF’rs a there for their offensive prowess, why not make sure you have P’s on staff that aren’t primarily sinker ball throwers?

Right, but I thought you were speaking of H.S. players and below, where you have little control of who's on your "staff".


As for Lau, he had a number of stats that supported his teaching, such as hitters HR's and avg. going up, but I question maybe there are other variables in addition to his teaching....it is logical, the more variables, the better chance of getting on base.

I am looking at these "guru's", as with 6 children, all into baseball, and asking me how to hit, I am not a teacher, I was a player and a very good hitter but never broke it down , I just did it. Now I have to learn how to pick a swing apart and try to improve it, Lau is one of the few I have read.

I see "names and philosiphies" can spark alot of "debate" on many boards. I see it as information I can glean a nugget from here and there, try it and come to my own conclusion. I don't follow any one guru or even consider tham gurus. Just information...and sometimes misinformation

[Chris O'Leary]

I suspect the reason is, at that level and below, there is a lot higher chance of an error being made on a GB, and that translates to more runners per out.

I'm running into this with my 12YO son.

I've succeeded in turning him into an almost pure ground ball pitcher, but he isn't doing as well as he did last year because of our infielders. In particular, we haven't found anyone why stands out at SS.

[scorekeeper]

Right, but I thought you were speaking of H.S. players and below, where you have little control of who's on your "staff".

Ahhhh. There’s a very big misconception, IMHO. A HC/Manager of even a LL kid pitch team controls who’s on the staff. The main problem the lower the levels, is that the P’s have less and less ability to get the ball anywhere near where they want it with much consistency.

Heck, I don’t think our HS team is very much different than most others around the country, and here’s what’s goin’ on. We have 11 P’s playing this summer who have pitched significantly since they were 12. But, even counting spring, summer, and fall ball, there’s no way we’ll have played more than 60 games before next spring for this coach. That’s 420 innings max over a 12 month period, or about 40 innings per P if its spread out evenly.

But when has anyone ever seen innings on a HS team spread out evenly? The kids perceived to be the biggest/hardest throwers are gonna get the lions share of the innings, and that’s just the way it is. We’ll have 4 players prolly get close 300 innings, and the rest will be doles out, catch as catch can. That means there’s a choice, but chances are, the guy pickin’ who gets the bump isn’t really gonna do a whole lot of cogitatin’ about whether or not one of those other 7 guys might be able to do a better job, let alone be a FB or a GB P.

As for Lau, he had a number of stats that supported his teaching, such as hitters HR's and avg. going up, but I question maybe there are other variables in addition to his teaching....it is logical, the more variables, the better chance of getting on base.

All of those guys have at least some part of their teachings that are valid for at least some portion of the time. The trouble is, many people tend to try to apply their “method” in every case, and that’s just impossible to be the best thing for everyone in every situation.

I am looking at these "guru's", as with 6 children, all into baseball, and asking me how to hit, I am not a teacher, I was a player and a very good hitter but never broke it down , I just did it. Now I have to learn how to pick a swing apart and try to improve it, Lau is one of the few I have read.

There’s not a thing wrong with Lau, but the same thing can be said for any of a hundred other guys. In fact, there’s plenty of guys right on this BB who will pontificate and opine on hitting until the cows come home. But the secret is, will it for equally well for each of your 6 players? I doubt it.

There will be some common things that are accepted as “basic hitting mechanics”, but whether it will work for everyone equally well, is very doubtful. Heck, there will always be a player or two who can only hit using linear mechanics, and they’ll hit better than most rotational hitters, but don’t get into one of those arguments. So much of baseball play is formed because of individual physical and mental characteristics, its unbelievable.

I see "names and philosiphies" can spark alot of "debate" on many boards. I see it as information I can glean a nugget from here and there, try it and come to my own conclusion. I don't follow any one guru or even consider tham gurus. Just information...and sometimes misinformation

That’s the only way to actually make progress through the morass of expertise out there! Ya gotta keep looking and trying to get things so that you can not only understand them, but also understand why they’re being done, and how to evaluate them. and what’s most important is, can you translate it into something a student can understand.

I used to get into discussions about hitting and pitching, but have finally figgered out that unless I can see a player in person, get to know him and his habits, I pretty much keep my big mouth shut, other than to keep repeating to make any changes very small and very slowly. I have a lot of opinions about hitting, pitching, and fielding, but as I get older, I tend to share them less and less.

The bottom line in gurus is, if any of the was really the “best”, you can only guess what The Boss would be willing to spend to lock him up! ;-)

[bladestriker]

There will be some common things that are accepted as “basic hitting mechanics”, but whether it will work for everyone equally well, is very doubtful. Heck, there will always be a player or two who can only hit using linear mechanics, and they’ll hit better than most rotational hitters, but don’t get into one of those arguments. So much of baseball play is formed because of individual physical and mental characteristics, its unbelievable

I found this to be true in golf, perfect swings rarely translate into top level players,disclaimer- AT THE LOCAL, STATE LEVEL-. Once you can hit the ball properly, the game is 90% mental.

No one method is absolute!

Baseball translation..., hit it solid/sweetspot,on plane with bat speed and play the game.

Sometimes I believe we have too much information, but then again here I am looking for it

I have realized all of my kids(by birth) are not shortstops and 3 or 4 hitters.
I'll teach them the game and then they have to go play it as 1 of 9 spots on the field. Play hard and have fun.

[scorekeeper]

I'm running into this with my 12YO son.

I've succeeded in turning him into an almost pure ground ball pitcher, but he isn't doing as well as he did last year because of our infielders. In particular, we haven't found anyone why stands out at SS.

I can feel your pain! My boy was a sidewheeler with a particularly great sinker. Although his HS career was one of some note, watching him throw even a great game was often painful to watch.

In 273 HS innings against schools who were mostly the largest in the State, he had a K:BB ratio of 3.8:1, and averaged .89K per inning pitched, and got 1 K for every 4.99 batters faced. That’s obviously not up to the standards of the big hummers that get drafted right out of HS, or get rides to big schools, but it ain’t exactly dog meat either.

His problem was, he pitched to contact, and with that sinker, nearly everything was on the ground, or popped up to the IF. The result was, he had 71 errors made behind him! Granted, he made a few of those himself, but still, when your team is guaranteed to average making an error every 17 batters, or 1 every 4 innings, and of the 172 runs he gave up, only 90 were earned, its really difficult.

I wish I could do it all over again, and if he still wanted to pitch, I’d try to get him to still throw the sinker, but I’d advise him to try to get it at the belt rather than the knees, at least through HS.

Heck, his HS had a field that way 335’ down the lines, 410’ to center, and the year he was a Fr, the BESR bats were instituted. As it was, he only gave up 9 HR’s anyway, and 6 of those came on the Fr and JV teams. so what would it have hurt to give up 18 or 27?

And when ya think about it, especially for 12YO’s who are really just starting, what could really be better than having them throw for the belt rather than the knees, at least from the perspective of the dreaded base on balls, or wild pitch/passed balls!

Shoot, even if they tried to throw it dead down the middle at that age, how often would that happen? My guess is, BB’s/WP’s/PB’s would drop dramatically. Now wouldn’t that make some rather large changes to youth ball?

Fortunately for everyone, being as how I’m regarded in some circles as a kook, no one will ever pay much attention to me. I say fortunately because, if everyone tried it and I was proven wrong, it would just be one more kook full of bull. But if I was right, the baseball world, at least the youth baseball world, would have to retrain itself!